Yeastex 82

[Cillian Breathnach]

Hello all, 

Writing from Québec. I’ve just started a few batches of cider (3000L) made with commercially grown apples. I bought a pale of yeastex 82 recently but there are no dosage instructions. I’ve looked on the internet and found dose recommendations varying from 1.5-5 g/100L mostly for beer. I’ve no info on the YAN of the blends unfortunately. OG of around 1,048, TA 6g/L, pH 3.35. To be on the safe side, I’ve added the lowest dose and if necessary I’ll add more after. Wondering if anyone would have any suggestions RE dosage in cider.  

Here’s a product description I found on one site...

«Yeastex® 82 is a formulation of specific yeast nutrients to increase yeast viability and activity during fermentation, allowing the end attenuation to be reached in a shorter time, and promoting consistent fermentation profiles. This formulation contains high levels of both inorganic and organic nitrogen and vitamins and is particularly useful for low FAN malts, high gravity brewing. Recommended usage: For 5 gallons of wort, mix 1 gram of Yeastex with a small amount of water. Add the Yeastex/Water solution to the brewing kettle with 15 minutes before flame-out. »

Thanks in advance, 

Cillian. 

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Cillian Breathnach.

[luis gauthier]

The dosage of the yeast for beer looks like 1 g/5 gal of wort. I guess then that 1 g/5 gal of must should work too because they both have a similar specific gravity (~ 1,050). The apple must is more acidic though and I don'T know how this yeast could do in such conditions.

Most ciderist use wime yeast for cider. I don't think there is any adverse effect of using beer yeast, but I think wine yeast have prooven to be efficient in cider in terms of flavor, etc. I personnally use 71B-1122 sold by Lalvin (and easily available here in Québec) . It is supposed to be able to reduce TA (i've never formely tested that but IMO, it does mellows a dessert cider's acidity).

Good luck,

Louis

[Matt Moser Miller]

Cillian, as I read it, that Yeastex product ISN’T yeast; it looks like yeast nutrient that’s particularly recommended for high-gravity brewing. I don’t know anything about the product, have never used it, but: the high gravity thing seems an odd choice, since your must is quite low in sugars.

 Secondly, the description specifies adding the product 15 min before flameout in brewing, yes? That’s a very particular direction (and also why we can know it isn’t yeast which would be killed by the boil). I assume you’re not boiling the unfermented juice, so the product isn’t receiving its recommended heat exposure. 

Lastly: if you’re dealing with commercially grown apples, why do you think they’ll be low in nitrogen, anyway? Conventionally grown eating apples tend to be higher in N, since they’re usually fertilized more heavily.

Good luck,

Matt Moser Miller

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 22, 2019, at 9:52 AM, luis gauthier <luis.ga...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Brendan Kearns]

Id reach out to your supplier and ask about pitch rate for nutrient dosing if you're unsure. 

Louis, I almost exclusively use ale yeasts with the exception of a few south african wine strains, and my pitch rate is typically half of the recommended rate that is suggested for beers, the protein make up is very different between the two among other variables. Cillian is asking about nutrient though, not brewers yeasts unless I'm mistaken.

Brendan

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[Brendan Kearns]

Carbohydrate*

[Cillian Breathnach]

Hi all, 

Yes it’s a yeast nutrient and not a strain of yeast. Regarding the choice to add nutrients, I refer to a reference that I saw Claude post here. 

« Try and put yourself in the skin of a yeast cell...

If there is a lot of easily available N, you say: Yeee, I can use all that nutrient to reproduce myself.

Hence the result of a lot of easily assimilable N (i.e. YAN) is an increase of yeast population. Grossly speaking, 10% of yeast biomass is N, hence 1 g of easily assimilable N may produce a theoretical maximum of 10 g of yeast biomass. The other 90% of yeast biomass would come from different other components of the juice. There could be a production of less than 10 g of biomass if some of those components aren't in sufficient supply.

Now, if there is just a bit of nutrients available every day, you as a yeast cell will use that for daily feeding, but not for reproduction as there isn't enough to produce new yeast cells. These are what I call slow release nutrients. There is some naturally available from the fermenting cider, but this may only feed a small yeast population. Such nutrients may be added in the form of the organic nutrients on the market like some of the Fermaid.

Finally, if there was a lot of YAN initially that has been used to grow a large yeast population, but not enough nutrients for day-to-day feeding, then you are in a situation that may cause problems. When that happens some yeast under certain conditions (which are not fully understood) would then produce H2S as a by-product as they seek nutrients by stripping molecules that contain sulfur.

Considering all of this we can try to answer your question

So that leaves the understanding of the need for commercial "nutrients" such as Fermaid K, Fermaid O and Go-Ferm (among others).  Are these products necessary for a quality product?  Or just for a speedy fermentation?  My focus here is on commercial apples since that's what I'm assuming many people are using or can only get.

These nutrients contain organic nutrients which are slowly released to the fermenting cider, hence can only be used for daily feeding and not for increasing the population.

So, in summary,

- if you have a low-nutrient juice, and you don't add any YAN, you souldn't need to add Fermaid or any other nutrients.

- if you have a high-nutrient juice and/or if you add some YAN in the beginning, you will have a more important yeast population, that might need more daily nutrients than what is naturally available from the fermenting cider - you then have to supplement this by adding Fermaid or other organic nutrients. On another thread, it was suggested to use bread yeast that has been killed by heating, which I think is a neat idea - the N contained in those cells will then be slowly released to the cider. »

I admit that the high density recommendation did hit me as strange, especially given the low density of the blends. Unfortunately it was the only nutrient available in large quantity at my suppliers. I’ll give contacting the producer a shot. 

Again, thanks to all. Much appreciated.

Cillian 

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Cillian Breathnach.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Cillian,

You seem to be walking in the dark here...

First, you don't know much about the apples you are using - from what you have told me, I think this would be the first time you work with the apples from this orchard, and thus you don't have any experience on how they behave under fermentation. And naturally, you have no idea on their natural concentration of YAN...

Second, you want to use a yeast nutrient that you know nothing about, and moreover that is designed for high gravity beer rather than for cider.

I am very much afraid you might hit a wall.

What I would do is first to have a sample of juice analysed for YAN at Oenoscience in Montreal.

I would also stick to yeast and nutrients that are well known in the cider world. I am sure you can source proper Fermaid nutrient from Scott Labs.

I would suggest you don't add nutrients in the beginning, let the fermentation start, and if it starts slowly and doesn't reach high FSU (like if it stays below 150 FSU), it means the yeast population is small and after a racking it will keep on slowly without need for nutrients.

On the other hand, if it starts as a fast fermentation, this means the initial YAN was high, you have a large population of yeast, and you'll need to feed it along the way. In this case you'll want to use some of the Fermaid (or equivalent) organic nutrient.

Claude

P.S. if you need contacts for Scott Labs or Oenoscience, send me a P.M.

[Cillian Breathnach]

Hi Claude, 

Unfortunately the apples are from new source and below what I was hoping for. RE the nutrients, I feel I may have been « mal conseillé ». I’ll keep a close eye on the fermentation speed and follow your recommendation for Yan testing etc. If you could send on info for Scott labs that’d be great. Thanks for the queues. 

Cillian. 

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Cillian Breathnach.

[luis gauthier]

Hi Drendan, 

You are right, I missed this one (I shoudn't write anything before 11h AM eastern time). I misread and mixed up yeast and yeast nutrient... Sorry for this one.

It's interesting to know that beer yeast is also used by ciderists. What do you mean when you saw that carbohydrate are transformed differently by the two yeast?

Louis

Le mardi 22 octobre 2019 11:01:30 UTC-4, BK a écrit :

Id reach out to your supplier and ask about pitch rate for nutrient dosing if you're unsure. 

Louis, I almost exclusively use ale yeasts with the exception of a few south african wine strains, and my pitch rate is typically half of the recommended rate that is suggested for beers, the protein make up is very different between the two among other variables. Cillian is asking about nutrient though, not brewers yeasts unless I'm mistaken.

Brendan

On Tue., Oct. 22, 2019, 7:52 a.m. luis gauthier, <luis.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

The dosage of the yeast for beer looks like 1 g/5 gal of wort. I guess then that 1 g/5 gal of must should work too because they both have a similar specific gravity (~ 1,050). The apple must is more acidic though and I don'T know how this yeast could do in such conditions.

Most ciderist use wime yeast for cider. I don't think there is any adverse effect of using beer yeast, but I think wine yeast have prooven to be efficient in cider in terms of flavor, etc. I personnally use 71B-1122 sold by Lalvin (and easily available here in Québec) . It is supposed to be able to reduce TA (i've never formely tested that but IMO, it does mellows a dessert cider's acidity).

Good luck,

Louis

Le lundi 21 octobre 2019 19:11:49 UTC-4, Cillian Breathnach a écrit :

Hello all, 

Writing from Québec. I’ve just started a few batches of cider (3000L) made with commercially grown apples. I bought a pale of yeastex 82 recently but there are no dosage instructions. I’ve looked on the internet and found dose recommendations varying from 1.5-5 g/100L mostly for beer. I’ve no info on the YAN of the blends unfortunately. OG of around 1,048, TA 6g/L, pH 3.35. To be on the safe side, I’ve added the lowest dose and if necessary I’ll add more after. Wondering if anyone would have any suggestions RE dosage in cider.  

Here’s a product description I found on one site...

«Yeastex® 82 is a formulation of specific yeast nutrients to increase yeast viability and activity during fermentation, allowing the end attenuation to be reached in a shorter time, and promoting consistent fermentation profiles. This formulation contains high levels of both inorganic and organic nitrogen and vitamins and is particularly useful for low FAN malts, high gravity brewing. Recommended usage: For 5 gallons of wort, mix 1 gram of Yeastex with a small amount of water. Add the Yeastex/Water solution to the brewing kettle with 15 minutes before flame-out. »

Thanks in advance, 

Cillian. 

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Cillian Breathnach.

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[Brendan Kearns]

Hi Louis,

Sorry if you mis-interpreted that. The pitch rates recommended for beer are typically higher given the molecular makeup of beer wort versus juice which has lots of available sugar which is easily fermented. I'm not referring to brewers yeast as having a lower pitch rate than a wine yeast in cider, I'm referring to cider as needing a lower pitch rate than beer when using a brewers yeast to inoculate the cider. 

Hope that makes sense.

Brendan

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[Cillian Breathnach]

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Cillian Breathnach.