What do you understand by REDUCTION in cider fermentation? Opposite of oxidation..

[Tom Bugs]

Hello,

Yesterday a friend who is a wine-dealer with, I believe, a good understanding of tastes (inc some cider) tried some of my predominantly Yarlington blend (c.30% michelin + some 'Rosehip' crab apples) from last year. I'd been thinking it was tasting OK, but I was a bit saddened by his response.. he spoke of 'reduction' (as in the opposite of oxidation) bringing about farmyard aromas, even mentioning chicken poo!

It was pressed mid Oct - unfortunately I don't seem to have recorded a pH reading. Sulphited to 100ppm then with Lalvin K1-V1116. It was pretty much left alone in a cool basement then with bottling sometime between Apr & June this year.

So I'm a bit confused & curious what factors may have contributed to a less than ideal outcome.. In Andrew Lea's book, farmyard is listed in the index around the subject of MLF. Areas I wonder may have been less than ideal:

- fruit quality - I believe fruit was ripe, though it has been suggested that mid-Oct is quite early for Yarlington (the year before they'd been really hard to press later, being very mushy when milled) - all handpicked from an old orchard with standards 20-50yrs old

- aeration of the must? I wonder if I add an airlock too early, for example - sulphite when pressed, wait for a day before pitching yeast - I've generally then added an airlock, though I've read more recently that people suggest leaving it more open to the air until fermentation has taken off.

- not acidic enough, allowing fermentation issues

Any thoughts or pointers appreciated!

[Nick MacLean]

Hi Tom,

I believe “reductive” qualities in wine and cider usually refer to reduced sulfur compound like thiols and sulfides. These molecules tend to have pretty potent smells ranging from garbage to rotten eggs. My understanding is these things are usually produced by yeasts in some quantity, but especially if there is low nutrient levels or autolysis. You mentioned your apples are from old trees. Sometimes mature trees can produce fruit that is low in N. This is normally a good thing for cider, but some commercial yeast strains need a fair amount of N or else they will start producing lots of sulfides. Another possibility, did you rack the cider off the yeast cake? If the fermented cider sits too long on the yeast cake, it can contribute some flavors people don’t like.

As far as solutions go, I typically get H2S in my wild ferments, but they age out. Additionally, if you have a keg, purging with CO2 can reduce the sulfide perception ( to me at least). I’ve also heard copper can be used to remove excess sulfides, since copper loved to form insoluble copper sulfide. But one needs to be very careful about dosing moldy toxic copper sources. 

As a final note, as long as you enjoy the cider then I would call it a success. Someone experienced in wine tasting may find a lot of faults in some ciders. To me cider and wine are very different drinks.

Nick

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[Andrew Lea]

Tom,

I’d agree with Nick that “reductive” refers to reduced sulphur compounds typified by rotten eggs or cabbage. “Farmyard” is something quite different., and not always a fault. Yarlington is however well known for generating farmyard aromas as a varietal characteristic, so it would certainly be worth you getting a second or third opinion from other cidermakers on this.

As mentioned in my book, it may be wise to add nutrients when using cultured yeasts in conjunction with low nutrient fruit from old orchards if you want to avoid production of H2S..

In your current situation, if the aroma is confirmed as sulphidic by others, and shows no signs of ageing out, copper sulphate treatment can work well. Details in my book. But be sure to try it on a small test scale first, before committing to a whole batch.

Again though I’d agree with Nick, if you personally like the cider and don’t find anything wrong with it, then just leave it be. It may just be the unexpected varietal character that your friend has picked up. 

Andrew

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Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

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[Tom Bugs]

Ah, thanks Nick & Andrew! The low nutrient factor makes a lot of sense - I'd not considered adding nutrients to ensure the fermentation proceeded cleanly.

Thanks for the notes both on the possibility of autolysis & the varietal charcter of Yarlington (I think I'd heard 'woody' before?)

It'll certainly be interesting to see how it ages anyways & I appreciate you both commenting on the personal aspects - I can certainly drink it, as with my other ciders, but I feel I'm yet to get such open & rounded tastes as I experience with many other ciders I've enjoyed. All learning & my friend has enjoyed & commented positively on at least a couple of other ciders I've made before ;)

As the main pressing season nears, I'll consider how to test a few different approaches - perhaps doing some batches with natural fermentation (I did some 2 years ago) & others with commercial yeast + nutrient, then I can better compare the results.

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[Dick Dunn]

I'd agree with Andrew of course, but would emphasize, re getting a second
or third opinion: Ask cidermakers, not winemakers!
Some wine "experts" have a tendency to get their knickers in a knot over
characteristics which are problems in wine but not much so (or even
not-at-all) in cider.
The business of "reductive character" is one of them, and winemakers have
the leeway to allow oxidation at levels which are OK in wine (esp reds) but
ruinous to cider.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 09:44:01PM +0100, Andrew Lea wrote:
> Tom,
>
> I'd agree with Nick that "reductive" refers to reduced sulphur compounds typified by rotten eggs or cabbage. "Farmyard" is something quite different., and not always a fault. Yarlington is however well known for generating farmyard aromas as a varietal characteristic, so it would certainly be worth you getting a second or third opinion from other cidermakers on this.

...

> Again though I'd agree with Nick, if you personally like the cider and don't find anything wrong with it, then just leave it be. It may just be the unexpected varietal character that your friend has picked up.
>
> Andrew
> ------------------
> Wittenham Hill Cider Page
> www.cider.org.uk

...
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Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Tom Bugs]

Yes, definitely hear you all on the potential 'wine expert' view vs cider drinker - he's very experienced with small producers using natural fermentation (fascinating areas). While he's just starting to work with a couple of Normandy producers, I'm sure I could help him expand his UK cider pallate. So, yes, while I'd take comments with a pinch of salt, I do take good note of his views & think this discussion has been really helpful.

[Nick MacLean]

Hi Tom,

I agree with the others here.  If you value your acquaintance’s palate, then I also see where you are coming from. It can be tough sometimes to make a cider that everyone loves. I’ve had some produced by a neighbor of mine who uses wine techniques, and while enjoyable, it’s pretty stripped of the “cider” characteristics. It reminds me of a generic dry brut. On the other hand, some of my ciders are crazy tannic and funky. I like them, but I know not everyone else does. 

One final thought. The biogenic sulfides are weak acids and exist in solution in an equilibrium. More acidic cider should push the equilibrium to favor the gaseous form for the lighter sulfides and consequently make them easier to offgas. I don’t know if this is always true, but anecdotally my more acidic ciders are usually more crisp and wine like, and usually produce less noticeable sulfur characteristics.

Nick  

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