2019 harvest

[jitdavies]

I was wondering how this year's harvest was comparing with previous years for members of the group, especially in the UK and North West Europe.  About 10 days ago I completed a milling of Fair Maid of Devon and Tom Putt, both early varieties.  I was struck by the low SG values I obtained.  Fair Maid had an SG of about 1.053, and Tom Putt pressed out at about 1.050.  How does this compare with other members' results?  I had my first small crop of perry pears this year (are we allowed to discuss perry here?) - all fallers from Helen's Early and Moorcroft.  The SG was below 1.050.  

I am not used to milling this early, usually leaving it until early to mid November but I wanted to get a sample cider of early varieties before they rotted.  This may account for the low sugar levels, but my subjective tastings of dessert varieties also seem sharper this year.  

How are other members finding the season?  Does the recent rainy spell bode ill for the more standard late ripening cider varieties?  I am in North Dorset.  

JD

[dave pert]

I'm in north Aberdeenshire, where I suspect the SG will always be on the low side due to lack of autumnal sun. Pressed a batch of fully-sweated (about 3 weeks) Katies at the weekend, came out at a borderline 1.044. Hoping the later varieties bring the year up to 6%. Last year I was averaging 1.048, though didn't take varietal samples.

Dave

[Ian Shields]

I am in S Devon. In my experience I would have said the sg's you quote for those varieties was quite high what have you had for sg's in previous years?.

I am doing my first pressing today an approx 50/ 50 blend of Dufflin and Major I will post that sg.

I think my Rosemary Russets although early taste fantastic this year.

Ian

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[Kevin Payne]

I'm in North Somerset and yield wise it has been a good year for me. Both of my Tremlett's trees have been loaded with the majority only just starting to fall. I'm hoping these will be ready to press next weekend -  not quite ripe enough at the moment. I will post results.

On Tuesday, 1 October 2019 21:43:50 UTC+1, jitdavies wrote:

[Ian Shields]

My Dufflin / Major mix has an sg of 1052 and pH of 3.1. 

Ian

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[Magsy]

Hi Kevin, my Tremletts gave a good yield this year for such a young tree and were ripe early, my others though brought nothing at all (Browns and Yarlington) I source apples from two local orchards and one had nothing at all this year, the other only a few trees gave apples. I used both last year and could have drown in apples such huge quantities. Another brewer i know who has 80 trees got next to nothing, he siad the frost got the blossom this year. We live in East Anglia. Has any one else had this problem? Also the SG was low on most of mine

[Ray Magness]

Morning everyone,

Last year I gathered apples from three orchards around us in West Sussex. Mainly dessert and cookers, all the trees were laden with fruit. It's a different story this year, two of the three orchards have next to nothing and the third orchard has a crop on one in three trees. Luckily I have a source in East Sussex where the crop this year is excellent. Just milled some Browns, SG 1046 and some Long Ashton Girls, probably Willy at SG 1050.

Ray Magness

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[jitd...@aol.com]

Thank you Ray.  

I am comparatively new to cider making and have only recently gone as far as taking measurements.  I suppose I have been making cider since about 2014, achieving drinkability in 2016.  

Last year my November milling SGs were in the 1080 range and resulted in some really relaxing ciders.  This year I have done a preliminary milling in September because I had access to some early varieties.  They pressed out at around 1.050 which rather disappointed me and I was wondering whether it was the year, the time of year of milling, or the varieties.  I guess I will have to wait until November with my main milling to find the answer.  

JD 

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[Ian Shields]

What apples gave you an sg of 1080?!

Did you say you were in Somerset? That would give an abv of 10%.

Ian

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[jitd...@aol.com]

Ian I live in the Blackmore Vale area of North Dorset.  Cold obdurate clay.  

I am always suspicious of SG readings because I can never tell how to discount the meniscus when viewing the hydrometer, and the hydrometer has a habit of attaching itself to the sample jar wall rather than floating freely which must distort the result.  However whatever errors I have in my readings I am using the same hydrometer as last year though this year I have a glass sample jar (see how long that lasts!) as opposed to last year's plastic one.  My readings were corrected to 20 degrees Celsius.  

Last year I had basically three different ciders each having an SG of about 1.080 according to my hydrometer and my eyesight.  There was a pure Kingston Black, a Black Dabinett Russet mix, and a mash-up of cookers, desserts, and cider varieties left over including a neighbour's festering Tom Puts and a bit of Yarlington Mill.  As I said the ciders proved to be very relaxing.  The year before I did one pressing of a general mix-up of mostly dessert & cooking apples and the SG was as far as I could make out around 1.052 (though that is what I recorded in my log I don't believe the reading can be accurate to three decimal places.)  People said it was "refreshing" .... well others said it was an acquired taste ...... took a year of assiduous study for me to acquire it.  After a year I became really attached to it.  

Part of the problem is that I don't trust entirely SG readings not just for the reasons given above but because I suspect that the calibration on home-brew shop hydrometers (pre-printed scale!) may be open to question.  Anyway as an amateur what difference does knowing the SG really make?  I'm not going to sugar it up or water it down just to achieve some token alcohol level.  It is what it is, and each year ought to be different.  

Nevertheless It would be interesting to know whether I am going to be refreshed or relaxed next summer!  

JD

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[Ian Shields]

Hi JD,

Interested in what you say about sgs etc. I generally am a bit dissappointed in the sgs I seem to get. I go by Liz Copas's pomona to give me an idea of what to expect. My Rosemary russets are 1057 this year which seems pretty high to me. I think the highest gravity I have ever measured was 1060 from Ashmeads Kernels I think my Kingston Blacks probably give about 1060 but my mid season Dabinets etc usually give about 1054 my Black Dabinets are more like 1048 which I've always found a bit dissapointing though they yield really big crops . I am on a pretty good sandy loam, near Dawlish, S Devon, and the site gets plenty of sun. I am intrigued by what affects the sugar content.

I too generally use a home brew hydrometer though I do have fancy ones from vigo which agree pretty well with the home brew one. 

Good to communicate.

Ian 

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[Kevin Payne]

Pressed Tremlett's Bitter today with Tom Putt and some desserts including Cox. I got an SG of 1050 and a PH of 3.6.

[Duncan Hewitt]

I'm finding the SG of most apples lower than previous years. My overall SG was 1.044 from mixed mid season apples. Typically our first pressing would be between 1.045 and 1.050, normally at the top end.

Duncan Hewitt

Merrybower Homestead

07941 905796

[chris brennan]

Would you add some sugar to that to boost up the o.g. not too much,  just enough to get back into the 50 range ?

Chris 

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[jitd...@aol.com]

How does that compare with last year?  Is SG up or down?  

JD

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[jitd...@aol.com]

I suppose the dank back-end we have been having in the UK is not conducive to high sugar levels in the finished apples.  I'm stacking up my apples and will wait until November to press in the hope of increasing the sugar:water ratio.  

JD

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[dave pert]

Finally got round to pressing mine today, all had been in store for at least a month, some for 2 (it's chilly enough in NE Scotland for over-ripening not to be an issue). Scores on the doors as follows:

Bell (sweet sheep's nose) 1.059
Merton joy 1.061
Corse hill 1.055
Halstow natural 1.054
Bountiful 1.062
Bickington grey 1.070
Ribston pippin 1.057
Tremletts bitter 1.054

Assumed my cheap refractometer was reading wrong, but double checked with hydrometer and figures are correct. Overall 6 gallon batch around 1.058, individual figures obtained by putting single apples through a domestic juicer. Delighted, 7% cider here I come!

I've possibly just learned an important lesson about putting apples in cardboard boxes and forgetting about them for a while...

[jitd...@aol.com]

Can I thank all of you who sent in details of your 2019 harvest.  I have only been cider-making for 4 or 5 years and I am still not sure what to expect in the way of individual apple performance.  It is always good to hear what other people's results are as a way of understanding whether one's own results are typical or suspect.  

My own results for specific gravity of the various apples I have access to are given below.  I am most uncertain as to my own SG readings and I think they must be taken as at least +/- 0.002 given the gunk that swills around in my sample jar juice.  The base of my hydrometer always migrates to the side of the sample jar as if by electrostatic attraction - this must compromise the results. It also occurs to me that when in the pressing cycle the juice is collected might affect the SG.  Is the initial crush less concentrated than the final squeeze?  These readings must be taken as snap-shots at best:  

Milling date	Variety	SG
19/09/19	Fair Maid of Devon	1.052
19/09/19	Tom Put	1.05
13/11/19	Yarlington Mill	1.06
14/11/19	Kingston Black	1.07
14/11/19	Black Dabinett	1.06
14/11/19	Ashmead's Kernel	1.07
17/11/19	Blenheim Orange	1.052
17/11/19	Kidd's Orange Red	1.055
17/11/19	Winston	1.06

JD.  

-----Original Message-----
From: Duncan Hewitt <dun...@merrybower.co.uk>
To: cider-workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 9:52
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: 2019 harvest

[dave pert]

-   It also occurs to me that when in the pressing cycle the juice is collected might affect the SG.  Is the initial crush less concentrated than the final squeeze?

I was playing around with  refractometer during pressing and it actually looks as if the SG declines throughout the pressing cycle. The last bit of juice looked to be 2 or 3 SG points lower than the easy stuff at the start. No particular theory as to why, unless the larger sugar molecules find it more difficult to escape through the pressurised cheese.

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[Ian Shields]

I use rack and cloth. The initial juice tends to be quite cloudy while toward the end it is almost sparkling clear. I suspect this might affect the s.g. readings.

Last week I did a series of sg checks by whizzing apples in a food processor and then seiving through muslin.

The readings I got were actually higher by a few points than that which I got for a full pressing when using a blend of those apples. The food processor juice was pretty gunky.

Ian

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[Andrew Lea]

Reality check please. 

Hydrometers and refractometers do not measure sugar levels.  They just measure specific gravity or refractive index. As another thread recently pointed out, these are only proxies for sugar levels.  They are good for sugars within a few points, because the main soluble solids of fruit juices are indeed sugars. But there are many other things which are not sugars and which affect those readings - acids, pectins and other polysaccharides, polyols etc etc. Remember that these components are not in some sort of “easy open” bag - they are compartmentalised within apple cells and sub-cellular structures, hence some will be more readily ruptured and expressed with increasing pressure than others. 

You cannot read anything into a difference of two or three SG or RI points during a pressing cycle. I have seen them go both up and down depending on the apples and their condition. I don’t try to translate this Into a variation in sugar levels. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 21 Nov 2019, at 08:55, Ian Shields <iancs...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[dave pert]

ok, so even if the initial sg is an approximation of sugar content am I right in assuming that the sg drop over the course of a fermentation is a fairly accurate basis for alcohol calculation - or is there anything else going on apart from the formation of alcohol from sugars that could throw the calculation significantly?

thanks,

Dave

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[Ian Shields]

Thanks for that Andrew.

Looking at the sg figures sent in by people in this thread  seem way higher than I would get for the same variety. What other factors might affect sugar content?. I know sunshine in the growing season and maturing for a few weeks help but it seems unlikely that aTremletts bitter in NE Scotland could get 1054 when in S.Devon I would think 1050 would be doing pretty well. Am I missing something?

Ian

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[Ian Shields]

Might be worth noting that I tend to measure sg when the juice is running very clear so I'm guessing there might be fewer other components interfering with the reading?

Ian

[Andrew Lea]

It’s only fairly accurate. The major error is probably the variable production of glycerol as a by-product to ethanol. Glycerol synthesis depends on yeast strain and SO2 levels to name but two factors.  Two other potentially significant by-products are succinic acid, made by most fermenting yeasts, and polysaccharides made by yeasts in a strain dependent manner. Indeed if you look in the wine yeast catalogues nowadays you will find many strains which have been specially selected for polysaccharide production to improve product mouthfeel characteristics. 

Of course there are also all the aroma components which the yeast throws off but in total these likely only amount to a few hundred ppm so probably don’t have a measurable effect on SG. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 21 Nov 2019, at 10:09, 'dave pert' via Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



ok, so even if the initial sg is an approximation of sugar content am I right in assuming that the sg drop over the course of a fermentation is a fairly accurate basis for alcohol calculation - or is there anything else going on apart from the formation of alcohol from sugars that could throw the calculation significantly?

thanks,

Dave

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[dave pert]

Thanks for that Andrew. If I ever get to the point of commerciality I'll start worrying about what level of accuracy's acceptable to HMRC...

cheers,

Dave

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[Andrew Lea]

To put it in perspective, the errors I’m talking about probably only amount to ca 0.3% ABV at maximum. So unless you are on the extreme edge of an HMRC duty band, you won’t have much to worry about. And AFAIR the labelling tolerance in the UK is still pretty wide (it was 0.5% ABV at one time, but I’m a bit out of touch so not sure what it is now).

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 21 Nov 2019, at 11:21, 'dave pert' via Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



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[Ray Blockley]

Searching the Cider Workshop archive for "ABV declaration on labels"
brings up an interesting thread from May 2017:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/cider-workshop/6EOBylWe9og

Seems to answer most of the questions & gives guidance on "tolerance"
for labelling.

Ray

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[Bartek Knapek]

But even with 0.5% margin - isn't it risky to state ABV based on hydrometer reading?

There are some very rough approximations involved.

1. we do not know how much fermentable sugars there are in the juice to start with,
we can only translate SG to sugars based on averaged data from scientific measurements, or make an educated guess based on the following this thinking:
- translate SG/Brix (OG) reading to "amount of dissolved total solids", making an assumption that the TS have same properties as sucrose
- assume fermentable sugars are approximately 80% of these TS

2. we do not know how mauch sugars were fermented
- we estimate it from the OG-FG delta, disregarding it could have been affected but changes in other juice compoments, not only sugars

3. and on top of this we assume certain efficiency of yeast in converting the cugars into alcohol

I never checked with ebulliometer, but I wonder how much off are these SG-based ABV estimations comparing to reality.

//Bartek

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[John Were]

JD, here in South Somerset, UK, our mix of cider apples and Bramley from old orchards has consistently come in at an SG of 1050/1 across 6 separate pressings. It is quite uncanny in its consistency!

John

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[jitd...@aol.com]

John Were!  

Thank you for the feed-back.  I was troubled by the variation in the SG readings I was getting.  Some of my results are in line with your 1.050/1 result.  My main cider varieties (with the exception of the Black Dabinett) had been picked up off the ground (unwashed) and stored for some time, probably beginning in August.  All the apples apart from the Black Dabinett and Winston had been gathered and stacked in an open sided shed by October 27.  

Then I went to Switzerland (don't ask about the Suure Moscht!).  On my return at the end of the first week in Novenber I gathered the Winstons and the Black Dabs.  

My quantities are quite small.  For instance 9.25 bushels of Kingston Black yielding about 14 gallons of juice (the rotters discarded but included in the bushel count.)  I don't claim accuracy in my reading of the hydrometer, and my 1.07 could easily have been 1.066 or 1.074 but I would not have mistaken it for 1.060.  Does a long period of sweating increase the SG?  

Winston puzzles me.  It is a late apple and a dessert which I find entirely unpalatable until after Xmas each year.  I would not have suspected it of being sweet but I get a lot of windfalls so it always goes in to my cider.  3 bushels went in this year. The reading was around 1.06.  

Perhaps I need to buy a new hydrometer or a wider sample jar.  

Yarlington Mill was a sod.  7.7 bushels many part rotters being thrown in because it is the first year I have had sufficient Yarlies to make a single batch to assess whether I like the thing.  Barley 12 gallons was the result, and the most difficult of all the apples to press in my rack & cloth press with the cheeses sliding all over the option.  Wonderful smell though.  

I asked people about the characteristics of Kidd's Orange Red. My recorded SG was 1.055, but I thought the juice tasted anaemic without character or bite.  Easy to press though - the juice just fell out, scarcely had to turn the screw.  Neighbour's trees planted some 15 to 20 years ago.  I put it in my general eater-dessert mix with a little Kingston Black and a small sample from .75 of a bushel of Hereford Red-streak + Blenheim Orange and Ashmead's Kernel.  If it miraculously turns out to be wonderful I will of course keep you all informed.  

JD

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[Māris Plūme]

Greetings from Latvia!

As i also started growing some English cider varieties (Cropping only Dabinett at the moment), thought i might add my experiences.

2017 was very cold and rainy with very low sugars.

The season 2018 was hot and dry and i saw the best apples in my 10 year experience.

The season 2019 was kind of pretty average weather. Lost much due to frosts at bloom time and the rotting was heavy this year. Some varieties didnt crop well.

Mostly meassure in brix, but i guess sg is just by multiplying with 4, right?

Dabinett 2018 - brix 15,2
Dabinett 2019 - brix 14.9

Eating varieties 2018 - Brix 10,8-14
Eating varieties 2019 - Brix 11-16

What surprises me is that our sugar levels here in North seem to be pretty ok compared to what i hear from British collegues. Any scientific explanation for that?

Crab apples both years 12-19

[Ian Shields]

I think a blend of Black Dabinet and Ashmeads kernel was reccomended somewhere in this thread. What sort of proportions worked for you?

Also I was thinking of a pressing of Dabinett and Porters Perfection with roughly 30 % Porters. I do like a tannic cider but will this be too much? I also have plenty of Yarlington, Golden bittersweet, Tale sweet and Payhembury.

Any advice gratefully received.

Ian

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[jitd...@aol.com]

I think it was my concoction you are referring to Ian.  

Dysfortunately I was not keeping records at the time (last year).  It was a small (by comparison with others in here) ferment of a bout 7 gallons in a vessel (former olive drum) with a capacity of about 13 gallons.  Very roughly half the juice was Black Dabinett, the other half supposedly Ashmead's Kernel (though they may have beem Egremont Russets (I only have my neighbours word for what the trees are, and their predecessors had planted them).  The BD's were the first reasonable crop off tress planted about 5 or 6 years previously.  Ambient infection fermentation started in mid November in an open sided shed exposed to east winds, North Dorset UK.  The summer last year was a spanker and sugar levels were high.  I love the result, wish I had more.  

JD

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Shields <iancs...@gmail.com>
To: cider-workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

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[Ian Shields]

Thanks for that I will have a go at a similar mix, and let you know how it turns out later next year.

Ian

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[DICK KIRK]

Curious the difference between Porter’s Perfection and Porters?

Dick Kirk

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[Ian Shields]

Abbreviation!

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