Does mouse distill out?

[Patrick Mann]

I have a batch of cider with a hint of mouse. Not extreme but detectable. Can I distill it or will the mouse taint distill over?

[Kirk Evans]

I had a conversation with well-respected local distiller yesterday about flaws, and the ability to distill them out. Unfortunately, mousiness is a flaw that sticks around according to him.

On Tue, Apr 4, 2023, 10:50 AM Patrick Mann <mannp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a batch of cider with a hint of mouse. Not extreme but detectable. Can I distill it or will the mouse taint distill over?

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/CAPPYefDRKX1%3DJbr%2BzkFbm5rNFxrGed0Ro0drrKBc2xfVMAtXFg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Matthew Moser Miller]

I'd be interested to see any non-anecdotal evidence/explanation for the persistence of mouse through distillation. It seems like it should be pretty straightforward:

Ethanol boils at 78C/173F; if the pyridines responsible for mouse have a higher boiling point (2-acetyl-3,4,5,6-tetrahydropyridine, for example, looks to boil above 200C), then wouldn't it stand to reason that distilling below the pyridine boiling points would prevent the mouse taint carrying over into the distillate?

It's possible I've misunderstood the science (perhaps pH has a sensory mouse impact on the distillate as well?), but that seems pretty clear cut.

Best,

Matt Moser Miller

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/CAOPgY7%3DTO2af9K0WXguZ_KPyMH8sBds_q8bM7dun2S19Hdw8ew%40mail.gmail.com.

[mannp...@gmail.com]

It being a prevalent issue in natural wine, cider and perry it's frustrating that it is so poorly understood. So much contradictory or vague information.

If lactic bacteria are responsible, what are the factors that lead to mouse versus normal MLF? I still want MLF in my cider, so I can't just hit it with SO2 to inhibit lactic bacteria. 

[mannp...@gmail.com]

An interesting data point: Part of the affected batch was bottled pet nat, while the rest underwent bulk fermentation in tank. The pet nat now has much more mouse than the bulk fermented batch. This leads me to question the theory that oxygen exposure is the significant factor - the pet nat bottles had much less oxygen exposure (bottled while actively fermenting and stored in glass versus plastic). The main difference between the 2 batches is pressure; to a lesser degree also lees contact, which is likely higher in bottle than in a bulk tank.

[Albert Johnson]

Only anecdotal evidence as well but I have tasted mouse tainted perry distilled and I can promise the mouse was every bit as horrifying in the distillate. 

Patrick, we use so2 at pressing - 100ppm for bittersweet fruit - and still almost always end up with mlf but no mouse taint (touch wood it continues!)

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/fb5c4f0f-c532-44a0-b363-2e0ec6f14253n%40googlegroups.com.

[Wes Cherry]

Doesn’t the mouse compound volatilize at higher ph?  (Mouth ph is the determining factor in how sensitive someone is to mouse)

 If so, perhaps treating the cider with excess citric or malic would keep it in the salt form in the still pot.

Andrew?

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

On Apr 5, 2023, at 9:21 AM, Albert Johnson <albert.j...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/CA%2BGNkSjYqUOy%3DP_gZ6HW3HyZyPTdAMKaTydTQ0qNP58PXmhsxg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Andrew Lea]

I’ve been reluctant to add to this conversation since, although well familiar with mouse, I have no experience of it in distilled beverages.  

But certainly I can confirm that the main chemicals involved are high boiling acetyl pyrrolines and tetrahydropyridines which are not very volatile.  Also, they exist in cider or wine as non-volatile salts which is why you cannot smell them in the headspace until the pH is raised. And for the same reason it takes a while for them to be obvious in the mouth.

So on the face of it, it seems unlikely that they would distill over. However, this may depend on the actual pH of the cider, and the lower the pH the less carryover one would expect. Also, distillation is sometimes a funny process, and high boiling compounds can sometimes come over as unexpectedly “steam volatile” due to effects such as intramolecular hydrogen bonding. We should also bear in mind that there are at least 3 known chemicals involved (and probably more) which may have different distillation behaviours and probably different interactions with human aroma receptors.

If there is good empirical evidence that mousiness can come over in a distillate, then I think we should accept this. However, I agree with Wes that the simple addition of an acid to lower the pH should theoretically reduce the carryover. UK perries as described by Albert are typically quite high pH, so again that effect might be reduced if the pH were dropped before distillation. 

Andrew

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/B886B408-D820-4EAE-98AF-E6A1D04E55A9%40dragonsheadcider.com.

[rkreev...@gmail.com]

I would add to Albert's statement that I also add so2 (80 ppm) at press and have never (yet) failed to finish (inoculated, not wild) ML fermentation.

Further, I've never (yet) had mouse taint in any batch treated thus.

[Dave Mitchell]

You can definitely smell the THP when the concentration is high enough.  I've had a lot of kombucha, cider, wine, and beer that smelled so strongly that I couldn't bare to sample them.

[mannp...@gmail.com]

Reporting back since there was some interest from the group:

• mouse persisted through destillation. It didn't get worse, but it didn't go away either. It lingers less in the mouth when it's a spirit, but definitely perceptible. Funny aside: the destiller did not find it objectionable, because it reminded him of his dad's scrumpy cider :) 
• mouse taint did diminish over about 6 months of aging. In some batches it is no longer detectable; in some it is initially not there, but shows up after exposing to air for a while (in the glass, half-empty bottle); in some it did not go away.
• lees seem counter-productive. Worse batches correlated pretty well with presence of lees during aging.

In short, there really isn't much hope for a cider with mouse taint unless it is just the tiniest bit.