Id imagine the tannin dropped a lot as well. Did it?
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I found that even a plain maceration can decrease TA.In my case, after 24h at ~18C, the TA (malic) dropped 1g/L (7,5->6,5).
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Hi Claude,I suggested we try the technique out for fun really, not expecting much.I’ll do my best to respond to your questions but I’m not at the orchard atm and my notes are there so I’m going from memory…. Here goes——————1 You say you filled a 1000L vessel with apples - I gather these were whole apples and not milled?Yes they were whole apples.2 This is a regular fermentation tank, I suppose hermetically closed with an air lock?We used a 1000L variable capacity vat with an airlock.3 Then you added 75L of juice that you let ferment. It is then the CO2 produced by this fermentation that fills the vessel and chases the O2 out, so the apples are in a CO2 only environment.Yes we added approx 75L of juice then closed it all off. Spontaneous fermentation. We did add some CO2 from a tank too through the entry/sortie at the bottom of the vat but given fluid/gas dynamics Id say there was a lot of mixing doing this. I would think that the majority of the CO2 came from the fermentation and when settled down this heavier CO2 pushed the O2 out the airlock.4 Did that fermentation go to dryness or maybe it is not important.Yes we let it go to dry5 How was the juice that fermented like? Usable for cider?The juice was really tasty. We are currently selling the cider we made from this batch at the orchard and at 2 stores in Québec (La Place Boutique Gourmande and Monde des Bières sur Marie de l’incarnation).6 I suppose you could also simply ferment water and sugar to produce the CO2...this is also an option, as it’s really the CO2 that you want/need.7 So once this is done, how do the apples look like? Are they still firm? Color change? You then simply mill and press them?After a week they had started to show signs of wrinkling.After two I noticed a little bit of browning under the skin on some apples but not many.After three they were old looking. I took a bite out of one and I must say eating a fizzy apple is quite a sensation.At four weeks they were softer to touch. I believe we pressed after 5 but I’ll have to check my notes.
Did you take TA measurements from the same lot of apples with and without this maceration?
Unfortunately I didn’t take TA readings but going by taste alone there was a huge difference in perceived acidity. The macerated batch was much smoother than an example of I fermented under the same conditions but that was made from the same apples that hadn’t been macerated. Apart from acidity the macerated batch was a lot, I repeat A LOT, fruitier than the unmacerated batch. How much of the reduction in TA is due to the technique or due to MLF I can’t say though.—————So from our first test, I’d describe it as a light juice in terms of acidity and tannins, but the polyphenols are definitely at the party in big numbers. For the apple varieties available in N America that are a little light in tanins compared to European varieties I think it’s a technique that has lots of potential. I’ll definitely be doing it again and this time I’m gonna do a lot more too.For anyone wondering about doing it or worrying about messing it up I’d say go for it. It’s a really simple technique and gives fantastic results (from what I can report back on after our initial trial).All the best,CillianLe Verger à Ti-Paul, Québec
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Cillian Breathnach.
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Based on the interesting discussion and results presented so far, I thought I would experiment with carbonic maceration
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@johan - Yes, I suspect that the temperat was too low and the duration too short for my trial. I ended up checking on them early because I was concerned the Dolgos might completely break down and I would therefore just end up fermenting the apples whole along with all the juice that was released, which is pretty much what seems to have happened. When I scooped them out of the buckets they were complete mush, and the SG of the juice I pressed was 0.025 points lower than the initial juice.
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I wonder - why is it called "maceration"? Woudn't "carbonic
sweatening" be more accurate?
Maceration involves soaking, and in the cider making it refers to
storing crushed apples for a period of time.
I have done a small trial as well.
A mix of Antonovka, Eliza, McIntosh, Jonagold, Sisi Red and some
early Reinette.
1. crushed and pressed immediately -> SG 1.044, TA 8,7 malic
2. two weeks in CO2 @20C -> SG 1.044, TA 6
3. two weeks in CO2 @35C -> SG 1.040, TA 4, ~0,6%vol (ebulliometer)
4. two weeks in air atm. @35C -> SG 1.046, TA 2.3
In #4 apples became overripe (but did not rot, to my surprise),
while in #3 they started to ferment slightly inside:
I wonder - why is it called "maceration"? Woudn't "carbonic sweatening" be more accurate?
Maceration involves soaking, and in the cider making it refers to storing crushed apples for a period of time.
I have done a small trial as well.
A mix of Antonovka, Eliza, McIntosh, Jonagold, Sisi Red and some early Reinette.
1. crushed and pressed immediately -> SG 1.044, TA 8,7 malic2. two weeks in CO2 @20C -> SG 1.044, TA 6
3. two weeks in CO2 @35C -> SG 1.040, TA 4, ~0,6%vol (ebulliometer)
4. two weeks in air atm. @35C -> SG 1.046, TA 2.3
In #4 apples became overripe (but did not rot, to my surprise), while in #3 they started to ferment slightly inside:
<lccbinijnanhokjl.png>
Apples answered to treatments very differently - Antonovkas (middle) changed the most, while Reinettes looked rather ambivalent (but went down in acidity as well, to taste).
In #2 apples did not show much change, but surprisingly here some started to rot:
<jhomllcoijpckeem.png>
Now the next questions is: how these teratments will influence other properties of ciders. Just started to ferment...
//Bartek
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I had 16 kg of apples from a natural/wild seedling tree that tasted fairly acidic from eating a sample apple.I filled a 30L pail with 12.5 kg of apples and pressed the rest of the apples on the 13th of September.The juice obtained was at SG 1.046 and TA 6.3 as malic - not as acidic as anticipated from tasting an apple, but I think the low SG contributed to this perception. I had a thought I should get more acidic apples to conduct this test, but as everything was ready I decided to go ahead anyway.I took 2.4L from the pressed juice, inoculated it with yeast and introduced it in the pail.