Killing grass under trees

[Charlie Williams]

Orchard question here. I often see in orchard photos and youtube clips that apple trees have a circle of ground at the base cleared of grass and weeds. Sometimes it looks like mulch, other times just dead grass that has been sprayed. I understand this is to maximise the amount of moisture and other resources going to the tree, but how do people do it? Is it as simple of spraying it with weedkiller? I'm kind of scared to do that in case it damages the tree! I realise that kind of weedkiller can't kill a tree but it won't be good for it either.

BTW the other reason I want to do this is to make it easier for my ride-on mower. I'm fed up of bashing my head on low branches!

Charlie

[Eric Tyira]

Are your trees dwarf, semi dwarf, semi standard or standard?

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/4809e7dd-f2c4-4742-956e-00c1926facbf%40googlegroups.com.

[Charlie Williams]

Hi Eric. Probably a mixture, all inherited so I am not entirely sure. All at least 20 years old, one is about head height, a couple so huge you can climb them and a couple in between. I can post a pic. Is it allowed here?

Charlie

On Sunday, 1 March 2020 12:35:38 UTC, Eric Tyira wrote:

Are your trees dwarf, semi dwarf, semi standard or standard?

On Mar 1, 2020, at 7:19 AM, Charlie Williams <charl...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

[Eric Tyira]

Yes, you can certainly post pics!  I can share ideas but they come from collected knowledge and not experience (I have a small orchard in the making).  Others may chime in on needed labor, practicality, etc.  How you manage your orchard or trees depends on what your intentions are.  Large orchards may balk at what's below because of labor needs.  Others may find it more applicable.  What and how you do it is purely up to you.

Soap Box

You should consider the soil the thing you are trying to grow.  It is a living organism.  In general, everything the tree needs is already in the soil; it only becomes available by the microscopic life of bacteria, nematodes, etc..  With healthy soil, the trees will surely grow.  Without healthy soil, you have nothing and then you end up having to supply the nutrients the tree needs along with the chemicals to kill the living things you don't want.  Once you enter this path, you've destroyed the soil ecosystem and now it fully depends on you.

Dwarf and (possibly) Semi Dwarf

Apparently they don't like competition due to their limited and shallow roots.  Think of these trees more as weeds than trees.  Competition from true weeds certainly limits the nutrients available to them.  This is why you see week killer sprayed beneath them.  But weed killer doesn't discriminate, so you you must replace the life destroyed with chemical nutrients.

Semi Standard and Standard (and possibly Semi Dwarf)

The larger the tree, the deeper the roots.  Thus weeds are less of a bother.  But the bulk of soil life exists in the top 8" inches or so.  That's not to say there isn't life (and nutrients) down deeper.  Larger trees can do with symbiotic plants rather than weeds.  Deep rooted plants like comfrey and dandelion can pull up nutrients from deeper soils to the surface to make it available to feeder roots.  This is where you start to think in layers (i.e. permaculture).  You can also plant food producers like rhubarb, raspberry, chives, etc.  Some of these companion plants also offer shade to naturally keep weeds at by and produce natural mulch.

Other places, like Miracle Farms use black plastic to minimize weeding and still incorporate companion plants.  I've also talked to people about using black plastic and they have warned against it.  When the plastic's useful life is reached and it needs to be removed, it's brittle and can be nearly impossible.  Again, no practical experience, just what I've learned.

Michael Phillips talks about "thinking like a forest" in terms of orchard management.  He speaks about mycorrizal fungi and feeding the soil as well as the tree.  Deciduous wood chips are critical here, especially the ramial chips (branches 3" diam and less) due to the higher lignin component.

Part of my overall point is that instead of mowing grass and weeds under the larger trees, grow things that are beneficial, useful and edible instead.  It will limit the mowing to between the rows.

Hope this helps.

Eric

--

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/c1c013a9-0393-4cc5-8366-fe581703c877%40googlegroups.com.

[Keith Wyles]

On a commercial scale where cider fruit are picked off the floor with machines floor debris will contaminate the fruit and need removing. This is not an issue if they are picked by hand.

When i did it with a knapsack sprayer on about 20 acres, decades ago now, the rows were sprayed with gramoxone to reduce competition. Grass between the rows was regularly mown. The spraying was done to reduce competition for nutrients, but without grass it would be difficult for machinery to pass.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/CA%2BzMTZWk_bag5SnNctWyyykE1fnCnoqZbVR%2BkoZ2GFTnQSbGnw%40mail.gmail.com.

[CGJ]

A cautionary note:

As you are cleaning up under your trees, avoid any temptation to disturb
the soil. From sad experience, I can tell you that your trees have many
thin stabilizing and feeder roots in the top layer growing mixed with
the roots of the grass, weeds, or planted cover. Damaging those fine
roots can leave your young trees susceptible to being blown over in even
a moderate storm.

This may be a case where neatness does not count.

Carl
West Barnstable, Massachusetts

[jitd...@aol.com]

Well Charlie I'm with Eric on this one.  I hate the sight of bare denatured earth under trees in commercial orchards, but then I am a hobbyist producing cider in as natural a way as possible.  

I understand the problem of head-banging on lower branches.  One solution would be to cut the lower limbs off and grow taller trees, you probably don't get the best fruit off the lower branches because they don't see so much sun.  (So much for those know-it all management gurus who say "pick the low hanging fruit" - the best fruit is right at the top, unfortunately by the time you have climbed up there to pick it some fornicating dicky-bird has pecked a bloody great lump out of the top of it that you can't see from the ground.)  The second solution is to mow with a scythe - you may still bump your head but not so frequently as the process is slower and requires more deliberate engagement.  

I have used woven plastic mulch under my trees to get them established.  The draw-back is that the ends of the mulch fray or other areas get caught by the mower and you have miles and miles of plastic filaments to deal with.  

In my unscientific view the best solution if you are on a smallish scale and are looking for integrity in your fruit quality rather than brute volume and defect free appearance is to use mulches of mown grass around the trees if you wish to suppress weeds (keeping the clippings off the actual tree bark) and generally encourage a productive sward which will not only provide forage for pollinators, but also collect nitrogen from the air, and liberate vital minerals from the sub-soil which will make valuable compost.  I never throw away a dandelion but re-plant it in the turf as the flowers help the pollinator populations build up for the apple blossom season.  I have a dedicated nettle/comfrey bed between my apple rows and the hedge which I scythe twice a year for the benefit of the compost.  As my cider apples have been establishing themselves I have successfully grown potatoes, broad beans, runner beans, parsley, and beetroot between the tree rows as well as black currant and blackberries in compost mulch without undue disturbance to tree roots.  As cider trees are now coming into their eighth year this will probably be the last season I grow spuds and I shall stifle my inter tree blackberries but I shall persist with an asparagus row by my end row of apples - no soil disturbance, compost mulching to suppress weeds and the ferns cut down in October just before the apple harvest.   

I knew a commercial cider apple producer who tried to run a free-range chicken and egg business between his apple rows.  His hens were in housed in small mobile hutches in sections of the orchard fenced off with electric netting.  I think he got into financial difficulties.  

JD

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/4809e7dd-f2c4-4742-956e-00c1926facbf%40googlegroups.com.

[Duncan Hewitt]

We keep chickens and geese in our orchard which so far has been an overall positive experience. In theory the chickens scratch around and eat bugs - how many they get through of the sort we want rid of I have no idea (moth pupae etc), but what they generally do like doing is hanging around under the trees scratching. The geese are great at keeping grass down in general, and for older larger trees they seem to be okay, but will happily ring bark a younger tree. For the young trees we did use grass clippings as a mulch, but then we didn't keep chickens under them at the time - they are quite happy to redistribute mulch to wherever they feel it's needed.

The upshot of both is that we have bedding to get rid of - the chicken bedding is largely pine wood shavings, and the geese largely straw. This is dumped under a tree to a layer around 1" to 4" deep, and will help keep the grass down under that particular tree. In the chicken orchard it also encourages the hens to scratch at the base of tree which along with the tree's natural shade and moisture/nutrient sucking, seems to nobble the grass and/or slow it down. The shavings in particular fall through the grass and seem quite decent at slowing the grass growth as they're harder for the chickens to move around.

Downside with chickens in particular is that they sometimes decide to scratch in the nice part of the grass, especially if a mole has mounded up a lovely pile of fresh earth. But then I've managed to become less OCD about that, though it wouldn't help a sit on. We still mow ours by hand but will be looking to go sit on in the future I imagine, or just more geese.

The whole orchard is surrounded by electric fencing, much like JD's commercial friend, but we're not commercial and it's *only* 800ft of fencing - which takes about 1.5 hours to strim below the lowest electric strand on one side of the fence (the strand side).

Duncan Hewitt
Merrybower Homestead
07941 905796

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/771373868.2635280.1583088258121%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Jay Kenney]

Don't spray weedkiller. Instead, first test your soil to see what's in or not. Then go deep into regenerative agriculture and carbon farming and use a combination of ramial wood chips and compost to enhance the soil living under your trees. The wood chips will help suppress the weeds and begin to break down and decay into beneficials for the soil and tree. The compost will add nutrients and help convert carbon into humus. Humus helps create and maintain the soil's structure and provides the substrate for microbes to grow on. Spray, if you must at all, with a mixture designed to enhance the microbial life in that soil. There are lots of resources on how to do this; Michael Phillips is a good place to start. Plant or replant a diverse understory. Your trees will be happy. CiderCon 2020 had a couple of good presentations about carbon farming in the context of an orchard. One of my takeaways was that your want to do everything in your power to encourage fungal mycorrhizae both under the trees and throughout the orchard. 

[Jon Roberts]

I'm also on the avoid weedkiller bandwagon. When the leading producer of glyphosate is losing billions in damages for harming human health, at the very least my own healthy sense of self preservation is going to kick in, even before my obsession with soil health does. What I've been playing around with this winter is King Stropharia (winecap) mushroom spore. It's a fun project for the amateur orchardist. What you do is mulch with hardwood (deciduous) woodchip, possibly with cardboard under. You then mix in a bit of winecap mushroom spawn into this mulch. Within a year you should be harvesting delicious mushrooms, while the fungus in turn munches through that woodchip producing lovely soil. They're pretty foolproof and all you need to do is top up the woodchip from time to time and get to the mushrooms before the slugs do. For more information of why a rich fungal based soil is a huge boon for orchards, give Michael Phillips a read.

[Hank]

It all depends on your context.  We have a variety of sizes of tree, we like standards because we don't do much other than prune and collect apples, sometimes hand thinning on favorite dessert fruit.  these trees get nothing once they are established.  for the dwarf trees we are establishing now (very few) we hand weed and mulch around them.  I will say that we have a 30 year old dwarf tree which gives a wonderful crop and has grass growing right around it, with no staking.  I see that as the optimal way to grow.  but it may not be possible to re-create.  We do mow our grass twice per year, use wood chips when available, hand weed young trees when we have time.  We have something like 100-200 fruit trees in many stages of maturity, so not impossible to manage by hand, but sometimes we do miss mulching young trees, which can lead to death or very limited growth.  When no mulch is abailable we will lay down some cardboard and weigh it down with a piece of wood, just to suppress grass.  Weed suppression is 100% needed during establishment, particularly grass.  grass and trees do not get along.

[David]

Glyphosate used in accordance with the instructions will be safe and do what you want. It won't harm the tree provided you keep it off the leaves and trunk ie don't spray on a windy day in full leaf. Have known of various mishaps over the years but can't think of a tree ever being killed by accident with glyphosate.(in comparison I do know several people that have died as a result of drinking cider. )

[Eric Theoret]

Hi Charlie, If you google Herbidome 350 you will find an interesting means of chemical application suitable to your needs. I have no experience with the device. It looks interesting. Good luck.

[Chris Hoerichs]

It can be as "easy" as spraying weed killer but we have to be careful, even about the time of year we apply.  The reason commercial orchards use gramoxne (paraquat - controlled use - have to have an applicators license to use it) is that you can hit the tree trunk and it isn't absorbed and it's used at the same time to kill suckers in the process of clearing weeds and grass.  This is not true for many other herbicides like roundup.  If you spray an herbicide that is absorbed by the plant, especially in the fall, it can be transferred to the roots and rather than a stunted tree you have a dead tree.   Also, be cautious of the generic big-box store combo herbicides.  They can contain 2,4-d which is known for its drift and post-application volatilization.

Chris

[Christian Stolte]

> can't think of a tree ever being killed by accident with glyphosate

That is probably true, but if you have followed the recent law suits in the US and Europe zdn some of the scientific literature, it may harm something else...

--

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/2b66c847-9bc4-4fac-b6a7-301e3cc4db1c%40googlegroups.com.

[jitd...@aol.com]

I know I'm a muck mystic but unless you really understand the chemistry and wider environmental impact of glyphosphate or gramoxone it would be irresponsible to use them.  It seems like a quick easy fix but does grass under trees really inhibit cider production that much?  If you need to stop competition while the trees establish wouldn't a grass clipping mulch work as well and save the cost of chemicals, sprays, and your ability to boast a "natural" product?  

OK so I am not trying to make a living at it but don't you look at the world around you and read the runes?  The excuse for big pharma in agriculture is that we have hungry mouths to feed, but that doesn't apply to cider which is not a life staple just a discretionary indulgence.  If you were growing rice or potatoes there might be some justification for squeezing what you can from the land but poisoning the world to make cider - and this stuff kills, that's what it's there for - seems to me to be the height of irresponsibility.  You will be planning to thin your fruit set with carbaryl next.  

Incidentally the development of many pesticides went hand in glove with the development of nerve agents.  In a previous incarnation during the cold war era I remember using a proprietary fly spray to trigger nerve agent detector papers for exercise purposes.   

JD

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/6f1b882a-7c34-f168-0149-42302e5ed3ba%40gmx.de.

[Duncan Hewitt]

It's just not needed :( Mulch with grass clippings when they're young - it worked for us and gave us somewhere to put the clippings, even mulch with straw or something else natural when they're older. If I didn't have chickens then I'd have gone the route of coir mulch matting weighted down with something. But chemicals isn't the answer, in my very humble opinion. Cider is such a natural thing - that's half the marketing you'll ever need.

Duncan Hewitt
Merrybower Homestead
07941 905796

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/506270851.7406828.1583870302011%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Josh Denbeaux]

Agreed completely.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/8e72937e-51c3-cab5-8535-a34f6e6fc478%40merrybower.co.uk.