FW: Enzymes for French Conditioned Cider
New Forest Cider
And yes Jez our cidermaking week-end is on the 17/18th October this year ,and the Plonkers will be there on both days,there won't be any need for me to perforn as I am told the Roy Bailey CAMRA ensemble will be here by the coachload.
Barry
www.newforestcider.co.uk
To: newfore...@msn.com
CC: mh...@sblack.com; rba...@sblack.com
Subject: Fw: Enzymes for French Conditioned Cider
From: amch...@sblack.com
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 15:57:18 +0000
Hi Mr Topp,
Following on from our telephone conversation earlier this afternoon about the enzymes for your French Conditioned Cider.
S.Black are the new Agents & Distributors for DSM & will be selling and promoting DSM Enzymes from January 2009 in particular Rapidase FP Super ( this is the equivalent of Crystalzyme AES from Valley Research ( DSM recently bought Valley Research Co) ).
I have attached the product specification for Rapidase FP Super.
We are happy to supply small to medium companies with a minimum order of 1 pack .
kind Regards
Alex McHardy
Development Technologist
S.Black Ltd
amch...@sblack.com
Tel 01992 825555
Fax 01992 825566
www.sblack.com
part of the Azelis group - www.azelis.com
----- Forwarded by Alex S McHardy/SB/UK/AZELIS on 03/12/2008 15:31 -----
| From: | Alex S McHardy/SB/UK/AZELIS |
| To: | newfore...@msn.com |
| Cc: | Richard Bacon/SB/UK/AZELIS@AZELIS |
| Date: | 03/12/2008 11:49 |
| Subject: | Enzymes for French Conditioned Cider |
Hi Mr Topp,
S.Black are the newly appointed agents & distributors for DSM Enzymes.
I am replying to your request for information from the DSM website on Enzymes for your French Style Bottle Conditioned Cider.
The DSM version is a product called Rapidase FP super, I tried to call this morning and left a message on your answer phone.
Can you please contact me with regard to your requirements and the process you use to make your French Conditioned Cider
Kind Regards
Alex McHardy
Development Technologist
S.Black Ltd
amch...@sblack.com
Tel 01992 825555
Fax 01992 825566
www.sblack.com
part of the Azelis group - www.azelis.com
View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place - Learn more!
Roy Bailey
Cider <newfore...@msn.com> writes
>
>
>And yes Jez our cidermaking week-end is on the 17/18th October this
>year ,and the Plonkers will be there on both days,there won't be any
>need for me to perforn as I am told the Roy Bailey CAMRA ensemble will
>be here by the coachload.
>
Yes, it is true that a coach party of 33 West Berkshire CAMRA members
will be descending on Burley on Saturday 17th. This party will also
include Nick Edwards and Tim Wale.
Earlier we will be visiting the Red Shoot Inn and Brewery at Linwood,
and subsequently drinking at The Royal Oak, Fritham; The Cuckoo Inn,
Hamptworth; and The Black Boy, Winchester.
Should be a good day.
Roy.
--
Roy Bailey - Proprietor
The Lambourn Valley Cider Company
(Real cider from the Royal County)
<www.lambournvalleycider.co.uk>
Claude Jolicoeur
Thanks for the information. I downloaded the product spec you had
attached.
Did you order some? How big is the "minimum order of 1 pack"
Claude
Andrew Lea
much enzyme they would need. The dose rate for keeving is not well
established but I think Gary Awdey and myself were using 10 ml of enzyme
(Crystalzyme AES as was) per 100 litres of juice. That means a 20
litre drum will keeve 200,000 litres of juice! Are there enough of us to
warrant an order at that rate, even if we kept our packs for two or
three seasons in the fridge? The stability given on the data sheet is
quite impressive (< 5% loss in 18 months).
What doses have other people used and can Barry ascertain the price of a
drum?
Also are we absolutely sure that Rapidase FP Super is the same as the
Crystalzyme AES? DSM were already selling an enzyme into the French
cider industry (the one in the Klercidre kit) which did not seem to have
quite the punch, certainly at low pH, as the Crystalzyme AES (which an
informant of mine in the industry says was in fact imported into the US
from Japan though I can't guarantee that!). Otherwise people may as well
stay with Klercidre.
Andrew
New Forest Cider wrote:
> Re the reply on enzymes in bulk.
> And yes Jez our cidermaking week-end is on the 17/18th October this year
> ,and the Plonkers will be there on both days,there won't be any need for
> me to perforn as I am told the Roy Bailey CAMRA ensemble will be here by
> the coachload.
> Barry
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Hi Mr Topp,
>
> S.Black are the newly appointed agents & distributors for DSM Enzymes.
>
> I am replying to your request for information from the DSM website on
> Enzymes for your French Style Bottle Conditioned Cider.
> The DSM version is a product called Rapidase FP super, I tried to call
> this morning and left a message on your answer phone.
>
> Can you please contact me with regard to your requirements and the
> process you use to make your French Conditioned Cider
>
> Kind Regards
>
>
> Alex McHardy
> Development Technologist
> S.Black Ltd
> amch...@sblack.com
>
> Tel 01992 825555
> Fax 01992 825566
>
> www.sblack.com
>
> part of the Azelis group - www.azelis.com
>
>
> >
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
nfcider
Rapidase,as it seems to have generated so much interest,possibly I
could get one to be divided up at the ciderpressing week-end,I have
also now found a supply of 1pint polythene milk containers which would
be ideal to split into.
Barry
> > From: amcha...@sblack.com
>
> > Hi Mr Topp,
>
> > Following on from our telephone conversation earlier this afternoon
> > about the enzymes for your French Conditioned Cider.
>
> > S.Black are the new Agents & Distributors for DSM & will be selling and
> > promoting DSM Enzymes from January 2009 in particular Rapidase FP Super
> > ( this is the equivalent of Crystalzyme AES from Valley Research ( DSM
> > recently bought Valley Research Co) ).
>
> > I have attached the product specification for Rapidase FP Super.
>
> > We are happy to supply small to medium companies with a minimum order
> > of 1 pack .
>
> > kind Regards
>
> > Alex McHardy
> > Development Technologist
> > S.Black Ltd
> > Tel 01992 825555
> > Fax 01992 825566
>
> >www.sblack.com
>
> > part of the Azelis group -www.azelis.com
>
> > ----- Forwarded by Alex S McHardy/SB/UK/AZELIS on 03/12/2008 15:31 -----
> > From: Alex S McHardy/SB/UK/AZELIS
> > Date: 03/12/2008 11:49
> > Subject: Enzymes for French Conditioned Cider
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Hi Mr Topp,
>
> > S.Black are the newly appointed agents & distributors for DSM Enzymes.
>
> > I am replying to your request for information from the DSM website on
> > Enzymes for your French Style Bottle Conditioned Cider.
> > The DSM version is a product called Rapidase FP super, I tried to call
> > this morning and left a message on your answer phone.
>
> > Can you please contact me with regard to your requirements and the
> > process you use to make your French Conditioned Cider
>
> > Kind Regards
>
> > Alex McHardy
> > Development Technologist
> > S.Black Ltd
> > Tel 01992 825555
> > Fax 01992 825566
>
> >www.sblack.com
>
> > part of the Azelis group -www.azelis.com
>
> > View your Twitter and Flickr updates from one place - Learn more!
> > <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/137984870/direct/01/>
>
> --
>
> - Show quoted text -
Claude Jolicoeur
On Sep 23, 3:05 pm, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> If there is a serious proposal to buy in bulk, people need to think how
> much enzyme they would need. The dose rate for keeving is not well
> established but I think Gary Awdey and myself were using 10 ml of enzyme
> (Crystalzyme AES as was) per 100 litres of juice. That means a 20
> litre drum will keeve 200,000 litres of juice! Are there enough of us to
> warrant an order at that rate, even if we kept our packs for two or
> three seasons in the fridge? The stability given on the data sheet is
> quite impressive (< 5% loss in 18 months).
I think this is mainly a question of cost. As you say, a 20 kg drum
would keeve a huge amount of cder - I have used 5 ml for a 5 gal batch
(20 Litres) of cider with success every time. From my calculation
then, a 20 litre drum of enzyme would keeve 4000 batches of cider or
80000 litres - less than your figure, but if I remember well, I had
increased the dosage of enzyme because it was 2 years old at the time.
In any case, if the cost of the barrel is in the order of 100 Euros,
then I am pretty sure it would be easy to find 10 people ready to
spend 10 Euros each to get unlimited supply for a couple of years.
Personnally, I wouldn't care if I got 2 litres or 100 ml for that
price - in any case it is more than enough! If the price is in the
order of 1000 Euros, then it is another story....
Do you know where / how / at what cost Gary got it at the time - it
must be about 4 or 5 years ago now. Maybe I should ask him
directly....
Claude
gaw...@verizon.net
Claude,
gaw...@verizon.net
Richard Anderson
You might try looking at vinquiry.com, they have a variety of enzymes. I have not checked out the prices, just looked at the catalogue. One for clarification of must from for Uvazym is from the Aspergillus niger mentioned by Gary.
Andrew Lea
> You might try looking at vinquiry.com, they have a variety of enzymes. I
> have not checked out the prices, just looked at the catalogue. One for
> clarification of must from for Uvazym is from the Aspergillus niger
> mentioned by Gary.
Unfortunately Uvazym will not work since it is a pectic enzyme
'cocktail' with multiple activities (pectin methyl esterase,
polygalacturonase etc) which is used for clarification. Such cocktails
are easy to buy and often repackaged into small quantities for the
winemaking market. They are not suitable for 'keeving'.
For keeving we have to have a pure pectin methyl esterase (see
discussion on my website) in order to form the gel with calcium. If
other pectic activities are present, the gel will not form. This
particular enzyme is very new to the market (ca 20 years), and its major
commercial application is in 'firming' fruit during processing.
Currently it seems only to be sold in bulk. The Aspergillus niger is a
bit of a red herring since a vast number of enzymes and different
activities (not just pectinases) are produced by / from this organism.
Gary, welcome back to the group even though you have little time to
contribute. Your thoughts about totally natural keeving are interesting.
Only last night Roy and I were chatting on the telephone about this. For
the benefit of the group as a whole, I'll say that if you have no added
enzyme, even the addition of the calcium on its own can be valuable,
since there is natural PME in the fruit at variable levels. Roy can
describe his own success at this. The value of the enzyme of course is
that it makes the process totally (?) predictable which it isn't otherwise.
Andrew
Neil
http://www.ncbe.reading.ac.uk/NCBE/MATERIALS/ENZYMES/novoshape.html
/Neil
Andrew Lea
> Isn't this what we're all looking for...
> http://www.ncbe.reading.ac.uk/NCBE/MATERIALS/ENZYMES/novoshape.html
Yes. Novoshape (amongst others) has already been mentioned in previous
posts. The problem is not the availability of the enzyme(s), it is
obtaining it in small enough quantities i.e. not 20L drums.
The link you give is for school and educational use only.
PHILL PALMER
maybe me and Ray ought to get together with our science depts to do some cross-curricular activities with this stuff.
we could call it 6th Form Cyder !
a trip to normandy at tax payers expense may also be in order to get some first hand experiences.
fancy it Ray ?
phill
> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:38:49 +0100
> From: y...@cider.org.uk
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Enzymes for French Conditioned Cider
Neil
Does this imply it is not 'food grade' or whatever the correct term
would be?
I think they would supply it and it is in 100ml quantities...
/Neil
Andrew Lea
myself, via another source.
But by the terms of their agreement with Novo, I believe that NCBE
(which is an education resource centre) are only allowed to supply these
small packages to schools and colleges for educational use and not for
commercial (or even research) purposes. It says so clearly on their webpage.
It is very very difficult to get enzyme manufacturers to package up
small retail quantities of their products unless they can already see a
market for it, and generally they don't let third party suppliers do it
either except under their strict supervision for obvious commercial
reasons. And because these are natural products which can vary in
effect, they like to keep full control of traceability, batch codes,
contamination issues etc etc . For mainstream pectinases (eg Ultrazym
etc) there is a big enough market in eg wine or juice making to make it
worthwhile packaging in smaller quantities say 1L packs rather than 20L.
But for specialist stuff like PME that market isn't there - or at least
they don't think it is?
In my previous professional life where commercial enzymes were of
considerable use for certain types of food sample preparation prior to
chemical analysis, I had endless difficulties trying to get hold of
small quantities. The usual route was to find a friendly salesman in
the company concerned who might be prepared, after some pleading, to
send a small 'evaluation sample' on an occasional basis. I'm afraid this
supply chain problem for commercial enzymes is nothing new. It isn't
helped by the fact that there are only 2 or 3 large producers in the
world and they have most of the business wrapped up.
Andrew
Ray Blockley
Andrew Lea
> Yeah, that would be great! I am already getting our Science Dept. and
> technicians in a tizzy as they try to work out other ways of chemically
> and biologically ascertaining the ripeness of apples... Stems from a
> discussion I had with them over using Iodine solution after posts on
> here. They love a challenge!
I'll give you a clue Ray, which they may be able to use. As apples
ripen, esterase enzyme activity reaches a peak. You can assay this AFAIR
by using a substrate of napthyl acetate and measuring the naphthol
produced in a fluorimeter. Don't have any step-by-step details to hand
just now but any competent biochemist should be able to crack it! Here's
a reference to get them started
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120760308/abstract
Though frankly the iodine test for starch is simpler and easier and can
be done in anyone's kitchen with tincture of iodine from the chemist!
Jez Howat
an 'intentional' natural keeve by allowing the pomace to macerate for 24
hours and ensuring that the temperatures are cool?
Just wonder if its worth trying later on in the season when (and if) the
overnight temperatures drop.
Maybe I should re-consult Roys experiment on his website...
Jez
Andrew Lea
The chances are good if you use bittersweet fruit from low-nutrient
orchards and if you add calcium. That's the way the French were always
doing it up to about 15 years ago .... and it worked for them!
A.
Ray Blockley
*snip*
> Though frankly the iodine test for starch is simpler and easier and can
> be done in anyone's kitchen with tincture of iodine from the chemist!
Thanks, Andrew! I'll stick with using my Iodine Starch test kit that arrived
the other day... But I will drop your pointers and link into the guys and
gals at work for them to play with... :-)
Denis et Jane
Good morning all,
I have been reading you for a while now, and find the conversations very interesting and informative. I am new at this, my wife and I bought a farm property last year and were lucky (at least somewhat...) to find about 500 old apples trees (some I would consider as crab given the size and bitter taste) on the property. Unfortunately, they were not taken care of and the apples are scarce and not very appealing... Nevertheless, we were able to pick enough apples last fall to make two 10L carboys of cider.
I didn't quite know how to proceed, so after milling and pressing, I put the carboys in my basement (stone foundations, not heated)(btw sp was around 1.060). I monitored the temperature and it varied from 11 to 13 C during fermentation. One carboy was 'au naturel' and the other one was treated with SO2 and yeast (EC-1118). Fermentation was slow to start, but after 4-5 days, brown foam was produced and dead yeasts started to fall to the bottom. I racked the first time after a month (sp at 1.032 approx.), then I racked again 3 months later (sp at 1.022). I proceeded to bottle both carboys at this point. Interestingly, there were no major differences between 'au naturel' and with yeasts.
Now the interesting twist: I attended a course given by Peter Mitchell in Vermont last August, and as part of the course you could bring your own cider for taste evaluation by Peter. Much to my surprise, his first comment was: ‘This is typical French Cider’ !!!. The other point of interest was that although the cider was dry, it kept its fruity sweet aroma. So I guess to answer Jez question, it seems possible to do intentional natural keeve. The only question mark I have is will I be able to reproduce it. Well I’ll be trying soon.
Denis Rousseau
Hinchinbrooke, Quebec
-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Jez Howat
Sent: 25 septembre 2009 12:28
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Enzymes for French Conditioned Cider
This might sound like a bit of a dumb question, but what are the chances of
Andrew Lea
> No, it [Novoshape] is exactly the right type of enzyme for the job. I have used it
>
> But by the terms of their agreement with Novo, I believe that NCBE
> (which is an education resource centre) are only allowed to supply these
> small packages to schools and colleges for educational use and not for
> commercial (or even research) purposes. It says so clearly on their webpage.
Well just to test this out I sent in an order to NCBE last week saying I
wanted the PME for private educational use. They phoned me this morning
to say they could not supply it except to accredited schools and
colleges. I explained I wasn't commercial, and only wanted to use it for
'self-education' at home to explore the process of keeving, but the
argument didn't wash. Their hands are tied commercially as I suspected.
So that's not an available route.
Claude Jolicoeur
Claude
P.S. I just got the latest Cider Digest - Someone in US got a price at
1000$ for 20 kg.
This makes it pretty cheap if you consider you can keeve over 4000
batches (5 gallon or 20 litres each) with it ($0.25 worth of PME per
batch!).
On 28 sep, 04:52, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
steve selin
Claude Jolicoeur
steve selin
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steve selin
On May 1, 2020, at 9:59 AM, Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:
Andrew Lea
www.cider.org.uk
On 1 May 2020, at 15:40, steve selin <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:
Do you have a link for Vigo? I cannot find them on Google.
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Andrew Lea
On 1 May 2020, at 15:07, steve selin <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you. Polygalacturonase is would not do it, correct?
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