Recommendations on commercial yeasts to use with keeved cider process?

[Jonathan Miner]

Hi everyone, 

I am looking for  experience/recommendations for commercial yeast to use with keeved cider method. 

Here's the short version:  

I have been using SafCider TF-6 and getting some "off" fruit flavors. Hard to describe exactly, but sort of discordant and random fruit esters that are not always harmonious with the nice apple flavor that results from the keeving method. Looking for other good cider yeast recommendations, especially if you have also tried keeving and have a yeast that you like to use with that method.  

Here's the long version: 

I have been making small batches (about 70 gallons last year) of keeved cider for the past few years with decent success. I'm doing this for personal consumption in the Seattle area where I can ferment outside over the winter, with cool but not freezing temps and get a very slow and consistent fermentation. 

Here what I'm doing: 

• I am using the cider apples I can get in Washington state (Dabinett and Yarlington Mill have been my primary juice source lately).
• I use the "keeving kit" sourced from La Fabrique du Vin (basically Calcium Chloride solution and PME)  http://www.fabriqueduvin.com/ 
• I also dose the juice with some malic acid solution if necessary to bring the pH down to about 3.7 range which results in better keeve results for me. I also add some campden tabs right away to kill off wild yeasts (I would love to try some wild ferment eventually if I have a larger facility and/or my own orchard, but so far it's been inconsistent and failed too many times...)
• After achieving successful brown cap, which usually takes about a two weeks after pressing, I rack off the clear juice I will pitch in a very small amount commercial yeast (like 1/10th of a dry pack). 
• It takes a good long while, but fermentation will start and I let it go slow over the next 6-8 months, racking every couple of months and tracking FSU as I go. 
• Once things have slowed down but there is still a bit of sugar left to ferment I will bottle in champagne bottles and the rest of the fermentation process gives me cider with a nice sparkle after a month or two in the bottle. 

Here's My "Problem" (okay, not really a true problem, but I'm here for learning and bettering my process so maybe somebody has some good ideas)

• The yeast I've been using the past few years is SafCider TF-6. 
• It works great with my process as described above. It's not too vigorous and with the keeving process removing yeast nutrients, it moves slow and leaves great residual sugars at the end.
• The problem is that my finished ciders have some very slight flavor issues that I think are coming from the yeast (rather than some other flaw in my process). Sort of discordant and random fruit esters that are not always harmonious with the nice apple flavor that results from the keeving method. 
• I have noticed that the longer the cider ages in the bottle the more these flavor issues mellow out - e.g. after 6 months or so of bottle conditioning, it's basically gone.

The Solution (it might be in your brain!) 

• Tell me what commercial cider yeasts (hopefully available in the US) you love, and why? 
• Bonus points if you are using that yeast to great success with a keeving method.

Thanks everyone and thanks in advance! I really love this group and all the amazing knowledge here. 

Jonathan

[gareth chapman]

Personally I would let the yeasts that have raised your chapeau to continue through the whole process. the off flavours you are getting could well be down to the yeast and most likely because it is stressed through the nutrient poor environment you have introduced it to. The more adapted wild yeasts whilst slowed and eventually stopped are probably more capable of operating in that environment unstressed  if a little slow.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Normally, when keeving, we don't add any yeast. Actually, adding yeast sort of defeats the purpose of keeving. Why are you doing that?

I suggest you give a try without adding any yeast to see if this would solve your off-flavor issue.

[Jeremie Reinhart]

I agree with the last comments.  The miniscule amount of yeast your adding, is stressed and "adapts" or morphs based on conditions/environment and if reharvested would not even biologically resemble the original yeast you introduced. Same reason beer and cider brewers don't under pitch. It creates off flavors. Last but not least, Safcider makes some great products, but TF6 has always created an off, sort of banana finish for us. Almost like a Hefeweizen.

AB1 or AC4 have been better choices for us, but I rather like a hazy hop cider and have been using kveik yeasts exclusively. Fast, furious, and delicious cider yeast! Any weather conditions. 

JR

Jeremie Reinhart

"Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard"

“Today I will do what others won't, so tomorrow I can accomplish what others can't”

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[Andrew Lea]

I agree with Claude and the others. The whole point of keeving is to add a mixed successional culture not only of yeast species and strains but of bacteria too. Keeving is not intended to be a monoculture like a single pitched yeast. 

Andrew 

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Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

[Jonathan Miner]

Thank you, Gareth, Claude, Jeremie, and Andrew for the responses. 

My takeaway is that I need to try to trust the wild yeast a bit more. I'll give it a go again with part of this year's batch. I realize that in my initial email I messed up the description of my process a bit. Right after pressing i've been adding the Campden tabs. Next I am adding the Calcium Chloride solution and PME from the keeving kit, followed by the small amount of commercial yeast, so it is that commercial yeast that is giving the brown cap the necessary CO2 to rise up. I've tried the process in prior years where I don't add any campden tabs and do not pitch any commercial yeast, but I do use the keeving kit, and the results have not been good (cap failed to form a couple times, and ciders have gone bad instead of fermenting cleanly). I'm using apples sourced from eastern Washington (about 5 hours away) and pressing and fermenting in my backyard in a city, so my guess is that I've just been unlucky with the wild yeast.    

For what it's worth, the cider I'm making with my method isn't failing - it's quite good, but not perfect yet, so I'm trying to tinker with the process a bit. I've shared it in blind tastings with fellow cider enthusiasts and it compares favorably to ciders like Dupont's Cidre Bouche Brut (which is basically the only French cider you can get in a grocery store around here). While I get that the traditional keeving method relies on wild yeast, I view the "point" of keeving as allowing me to get a cider with the more complex residual apple sugars left at the end, which I think gets a much better flavor profile compared to the prevailing local method of rapidly fermenting as dry as possible, sterilizing, back-sweetening, and then force carbonating.

At any rate, I really appreciate all of you responding. This forum is an invaluable resource and I deeply enjoy learning from everyone and making cider. 

Cheers,

Jonathan   

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[Andrew Lea]

It’s curious to me that your apple juice from WA sources is not fermenting spontaneously with its own wild yeast. Is the fruit too clean or have they been treated with some sort of fermentation inhibitor before you get them?   One of the implicit assumptions about keeving is that there will be a large number of wild organisms in the juice before you even start. These will come both from the fruit itself and from the equipment where it persists from season to season. Maybe you are too heavily sterilising your mill and press? 

Andrew

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Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

On 16 Sep 2025, at 18:38, Jonathan Miner <jonathan...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Bartek Knapek]

To me, the main purpose of keeving is to: 
1) decrease the N content, so that the fermentation will proceed slowly
2) clarify the juice, so that the yeast have nothing to hold on to, fall to the bottom, and can be effectively removed at racking

What yeast will produce the CO2 to push the pectins up, is secondary. When I was visiting cider makers in Normandy, I learned some of them rely on natural yeast, but some do add aromatic yeast to the must (all of them add PME and CaCl). But Andrew has a valid point about the source of natural microflora. The conditions in french cideries are not very sterile, to say the least. So the natural microflora is abundant. Personally, after having some unsuccessful keeving attempts, I started to add a small dosage of 1g/100L yeast at the very beginning, before chapeau brun - and that helps. And it does not prevent me from stopping the ferementation later on. 

//Bartek

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[Jonathan Miner]

Bartek,

Thanks for sharing your experience and also what you learned about when visiting cider makers in Normandy. It sounds like you and I have landed on a relatively similar process. 

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