Canning and carbonation

[thomcd...@gmail.com]

Hi group!

I'm experimenting with canning a batch (or two) of cider this year and I've kind of hit a dead end when it comes to information about can-carbonating (at least with the kind of cider I like to make) - I do a half-keeve and rack many times to thin out yeast cells/nitrogen, low-temperature and I closely follow fermentation speed. I've had some success in bottling ciders with residual sugar and in-bottle carbonation.

I can't get my mind around how to retain some of these principles and safely make a canned product. I don't even know what the safe level of carbonation is for cans. Generally with my production protocol I'm able to get a cider (in bottles) with around 3.5g/L of dissolved cO2 (1 bar) with an SG around 1.010 at bottling. 

Does fermentation really stop in a high pressure environment? if I build of my carbonation to 1 bar in a brite-tank before canning will this prevent the cider from continuing to ferment to dryness in-can (considering an SG drop of less than 0.001 in a 2 week span beforehand)? I've heard that some Breton cideries use a hybrid in-tank and force carbonation method to control the carbonation of their ciders (in bottles however)...

please let me know if anyone has had some success with this kind of thing. I might just have to make drier ciders for the canning project!

Thanks!

Thomas

[gareth chapman]

In theory it should work, but the reason keeved ciders are bottled in heavyweight bottles as they are is that we can never be sure that the residual sugar we are aiming for won't be fermented out your if your 1010 cider does ferment to dry then you could be adding another 5 vols of co2 or 50+ psi.
High pressure can stress yeast and in some cases destroy it but personally I wouldn't risk it I would stick to bottles when you have an unknown to factor in.

[thomcd...@gmail.com]

Thank you for your comments Gareth! I'm definitely going to bottle part of the batch. I am still looking for alternatives to protect a canned cider with residual sugar, but I will probably risk the canned keeve! I read that aluminum cans can hold more than 90psi and that a Coke can holds about 60psi so that gives me a good margin to play with. My ciders are clear and never gush, so I may just be lucky!

[Matt Moser Miller]

It is probably also worth confirming that the cans you’re filling into are rated for pasteurization—will the lining be impacted by/degrade in the heat? Do you then face risks (flavor-wise, not necessarily safety) of interaction between the cider (which is more acidic than a beer) and the metal of the can?

I can’t speak from experience (and would be glad for someone who can-conditions a cider with RS to speak on it), but I would imagine canned sweet ciders (many made at larger scale) use techniques like sterile filtering or in-line pasteurization before canning with a counter-pressure filler. I guess, like Gareth, I’d ask what the advantages are to canning like this vs. using glass which tolerates higher pressure, higher temperatures, and is fully recyclable. 

Also, you should research the “sulfite levels in canned cider” issue; I think they need to be much lower than ciders in glass, though I can’t recall why. Something to do with reduction/off-flavors? As I said, I don’t can, myself. But it’s worth nailing that down if you do go ahead with the canning.

Best,

Matt Moser Miller

Pealer Mill Orchard & Cidery

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 13, 2025, at 9:09 AM, thomcd...@gmail.com <thomcd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you for your comments Gareth! I'm definitely going to bottle part of the batch. I am still looking for alternatives to protect a canned cider with residual sugar, but I will probably risk the canned keeve! I read that aluminum cans can hold more than 90psi and that a Coke can holds about 60psi so that gives me a good margin to play with. My ciders are clear and never gush, so I may just be lucky!

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/3406d89f-3e02-4f19-b44e-503ce2d38a86n%40googlegroups.com.

[James Bayliss-Smith]

S02 levels need to be below 15mg/L in  canned wine otherwise the sulphur can interact with the aluminium and cause H2S0 hydrogen sulphide gas (rotten eggs smell),  I imagine its same for cider

James Bayliss-Smith

Chief Brewer and Allotment Vigneron

www.naniasvineyard.co.uk

07801287924

ja...@naniasvineyard.co.uk

To view this discussion, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/55FF05B0-F152-4BA4-951E-EDADE442F66F%40gmail.com.

[terryc...@gmail.com]

This is a side issue, but I understand from a small cidermaker in Tasmania that they are moving to cans because of transport costs and bottle shop shelf spacing is set-up for cans. So, cans are a more attractive product for the retailer as they take up "standard" shelf space rather than the extra space needed for bottles.

 Probably a marketing dilemma but canned cider seems to come in 330, 355 and 375ml cans compared with the "standard" 330ml (12 fl oz) bottle.

[gareth chapman]

To be fair the risks of injury are far less with "explosive" cans than glass, but it's not necessarily just about failure of the container, cans will deform whereas glass doesn't when pressurised from within. As others have said pasteurisation is probably the answer and again make sure that the container is suitable as with the sulphite issue, which I think has been largely eradicated with lined cans.

[Mike Harris]

Hi Thomas 

We are a tiny cidery in Canada and have canned our cider and pasteurize it in a hot water bath pasteurizer for the last several years. Happy to share what we have learned through trial and error:

We have made can conditioned ciders but not with residual sugar or keeved so I cannot speak to that.  Our can conditioned ciders we first fermented to dryness, then used 7g/l sucrose priming sugar when we canned to carbonate.

However, most of our ciders are force carbonated in a brite tank.  Our single-head canning line is not counter pressure (wild goose gosling).  As long as the cider is very cold it can be done successfully.

We keep our free S02 to 10-15ppm and have not had any issues (knock on wood). We do not sterile filter or use sorbate, just pasteurize.  We do pasteurize to 40PU at 63 degrees using a Craft Metrics pasteurization computer and have not had any re-fermentation issues.

We have found the key to successful pasteurizing of carbonated cans is to keep carbonation modest (we strive for 2.5 to  2.6 vols C02, tested with a Zham) AND to keep weights to 500g max (for a filled 473ml can, our only size).  Any higher carbonation than this or any higher fill and the risk of footballing (cans distending) greatly increases when pasteurizing.  This is a tiny window to jump through and we have had some disastrous canning runs in the past resulting in lots of footballed cans to pour at farmers markets :).

I don't pretend to be an expert.  In all likelihood there are better ways.  Creek and Gully cider in Naramata exclusively can-conditions their ciders to great success with some RS and may be worth a reach-out.

Mike

Dominion Cider Co.

[thomcd...@gmail.com]

Thank you all and special thanks to Mike Harris for the really practical info and shared experience. Seems to me that pasteurizing is the key to ensure that no over- refermentation happens in-can, any idea if wild yeast strains are more/less sensitive to heat and might not die @ 63 degrees like some cultured strains? We don't add sulfites to our ciders so not too worried about the corrosion aspect. Thanks again!

[gareth chapman]

63 will be plenty, most yeast strains won't survive 55 degrees, We don't pasteurise very often but after reading the article below we just heat the product to 60 degrees and never had any re-fermentation. 

A Preliminary Evaluation to Establish Bath Pasteurization Guidelines for Hard Cider - ProQuest