Scion wood length

[Ben Kessler]

I have been grafting for several years now and getting better at it. I have been wondering if the length of the scion wood has any effect on the likelihood that the graft will be successful or not. By successful i mean whether or not it will take.

Will the number of buds have an effect on the success rate? I am just wondering if more wood\buds means more demand for resources and if at some point more of it means less likelihood of success.

Will a short piece of scion (2-3 inches) with 1-3 buds have a better chance than a piece of 5-6 inches long with many more buds?

I realize there isn't a need for such a long piece but I have a few trees.and only make a few grafts here and there so if I get a piece of scion wood I may only have an opportunity to make one graft with it and hence my question. I don't need to get as many grafts as possible out of a piece that is several times longer than needed. 

Thank you,

Ben

[Dick Dunn]

First thought on scion length is that the longer the scion is, the easier
it is to break the graft when it's just starting to unite--it's a longer
lever if you bump or shake it.

Second, if you've got a lot of buds on the scion, if more than one bud
opens you're going to rub off all but one before long anyway. I look for
two healthy buds on a scion "just to be sure". You want leaf buds, not
blossom buds, though.

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 08:09:54AM -0700, Ben Kessler wrote:
> I have been grafting for several years now and getting better at it. I have
> been wondering if the length of the scion wood has any effect on the
> likelihood that the graft will be successful or not. By successful i mean
> whether or not it will take.

...

> Will a short piece of scion (2-3 inches) with 1-3 buds have a better chance
> than a piece of 5-6 inches long with many more buds?

...
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[DICK KIRK]

Number of buds seems to be critical to success of grafts. Most of us in Calif Rare Fruit Growers limit scion buds to 3.  I agree that long scions also risk breaking should a bird land on them, and the “draw” of many buds overwhelms the ability to form a solid union.

Dick Kirk

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[Brian Drake]

I’ve settled on 2 as my standard - this is maybe more for scionwood efficiency especially for trialing where I may only have one puny stick.  I can get 5 grafts out of a decent stick if I’m lucky.

Someone recently made a comment (another forum) regarding a larger scion having more resources (sugars, etc) to sustain the scion until the cambium can make cambium connection to the rootstock.  Dunno if there is evidence that that’s true.

Rather than focusing on # of buds, I’m trying to be more diligent about choosing the best wood to graft - well hydrated wood, tight buds, suppleness (getting mature hardened off wood -  avoiding spongy bendy stuff can be that second push due to late pruning or over-fertilization too late in the growing season)  ... and after care (pinching rootstock buds, keeping roots damp but not soggy, transplanting out at right time)

Good luck to all of us!  I’ve grafted 1000+ this year and it’s about damn time I break 50% survival - this is the year!!

Cheers!

Brian 

OOLLC

Dick Kirk

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[Dick Dunn]

One item from Brian Drake below re another forum on larger scions:
Yes, a larger scion has more resources it might contribute, but it also has
more buds which need those resources. And once the rootstock can start
feeding the scion, it must pass more through the graft union.

I imagine all of you who graft have seen scions where the buds are so
close, it's hard to figure out how to make the cut without impinging on a
bud...and also scions where it seems like you have a mile of clear space
either side of a bud! There are numerous variables here.

I'd like to hear from people who've made a LOT of grafts (like tens of
thousands) and also have been able to do follow-up to see how successful
they were. But where do we find such folks?...and where can I hire one?:)

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 07:32:18PM -0700, Brian Drake wrote:
...snip...

> Someone recently made a comment (another forum) regarding a larger scion
> having more resources (sugars, etc) to sustain the scion until the cambium
> can make cambium connection to the rootstock. Dunno if there is evidence
> that that's true.

[Les Price]

My two cents worth is 2 buds. I personally only do around 50 bench grafts each year. Scions ive mail ordered in from overseas. 

Most of the large scale nurseries i know of find some way of accomplishing their propagation by budding. Not only is it faster ,but  as i have discovered ,  it is much more forgiving with problems like disease in scion , huge mismatch of sizes. Last years 230 trees, M26 & G935 rootstock only 28 misses.

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[Julie]

One source of grafting experts "wood" likely be the North American Scion Exchange facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/groups/684498728257243

Several members of that group regularly graft thousands of trees each year.  From what I've read so far on that forum, they would concur using a scion with only 2 or 3 buds.

I'm waiting for the next spell of misty/rainy weather to graft my half-dozen or so for this year.  I had about 80% take from my first go-round.

Happy growing!

Julie

[Neil Clapperton]

I've just completed 1700 grafts with apples and perry pears, and am not as focused on bud numbers.  It would be great to have some more science applied to the art, but with my school botany in mind I have concentrated on making sure that the graft union maximises the cambium contact, mostly through whip and tongue, but also bark grafting for thin scions, scion hydration, and good quality tape.  I don't rush to rub out the additional buds on either the rootstock or the scion because I feel they are feeding the roots - maybe.  It does add to the labour though.  Last year I got 94% success with the apples but crashed and burned with the pears due to quince incompatibility.  I would recommend 3 buds that are clear of the tape, but with scions in abundant supply, and more crowded I am happy to go for 4 or even 5.  I'm thinking of growing 2 leaders this year for an experiment in double Guyot training, so 3+ makes sense.  

Neil

Commonweal Cider

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[eer...@gmail.com]

Hi all, thanks for this discussion. 

Les, you mentioned budding, and i am currently pondering if i should try that instead of grafting (summer is much more convenient to work outside..). My issue is that in literature i've come across budding seems to focussed on small rootstocks, but i am going seedlings/malus sylvestris. Would you or other have experience or words of caution in budding to vigorous rootstocks? union strength issues maybe?

I also wonder why budding seems to be less present in the cider circles? just the issue of getting fresh buds during summer, graftwood/scion variety not available locally? or some other collective wisdom following trial and error?

Thanks, 

Eero

[Les Price]

Just off the cuff, i would imagine you dont here so much about budding in cider circles for several reasons.

Procuring scions in winter in order to store them, ship them. This seems to be more popular in order to get all the many, many old world traditional cider varieties. Also here in my state, Washington, budding is definitely the grafting means of choice amongst the big nurseries but these nurseries have (at least in the past) cranked out thousands of trees at a time all on individual rootstocks of culinary apples not cider apples. Given the opportunity to make a buck at it im sure they would. 

There is no reason not to bud versus dormant graft. There are pros and cons to both but frankly the big guys do budding because its most successful and they can train completely unskilled labor to do it in a couple hours.

I still do both but more budding. I have a terrible problem with Anthracnose in my orchard and even though i have it under control i dont think ill ever be rid of it. I find that when grafting if i take scions from trees that have the disease anywhere in the tree i will have much better success with budding than bench graftng. Just as a side note, i have been experimenting with the Geneva rootstocks over the last few years and in my experience when they warn you that the rootstock may be susceptible to latent disease problems from the scion they are not kidding!!  I had G41 where not only did the grafts not take and scion then died but also the rootstocks died!

This was also somewhat evident in G935.

As far as more traditional cider rootstocks go, there is no problem with budding them.

Mm106, mm111, std, etc. You can tollerate quite a bit of size mismatch between scion and rootstock also. Ive used some really tiny crab buds on 2 year old rootstock, at least 1/2 ".  Ive found that one of the secrets to buddind succes for me is having my rootstock nursery very well watered prior to budding. 

Budding tape works good but Parafilm was made for chip budding .....

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[Neil Clapperton]

I'd be interested to hear how you get on with grafting with crab apple seedlings. This year I had a go at using M Sylvestris for the apples and wild pear hedging for pears, and am worried that the thinness of crab seedlings in particular may cause a higher fail rate.  The cost of crab hedging is 25% of a commercial rootstock, and nothing if you grow your own seedlings, so worth the gamble, but if you only have a few precious scions it may be too risky.

Kind regards

Neil

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[Les Price]

Sorry, i might have led you a bit astray, i dont actually have any stool beds for rootstocks i only use commercial stock, usually from Treco in Oregon, they can send me regrades of most their stocks for a decent price and their regrades look better than most places first run.

Having said that, I am however  harvesting my own M9 rootstock from a row of it i planted back in 2005. The misses i had back then have been producing suckers like crazy ever since. 

I know what you mean about the small diameter of the crab wood though. I am always a little ebarased when someone orders any of the crabs that i have for scion wood.

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[eer...@gmail.com]

Thanks for the tips! Will let you know once i get there. I ordered crab rootstocks from a Danish nursery that specialises on that and grafting heritage and cider apples (thanks for the tip in this forum), and these are quite substantial, likewise the grafted cider trees look solid. I'll end up doing probably both t and chip budding for the local heritage varieties. 

Eero