Ice cider fermentation slowing too much?

[Scott Harring]

Looking for advice on my first try at Ice cider.  Initial juice cryoconcentrated to 1.152 and a TA of 17.3.  Pitched 71B yeast after making a starter with similar concentrated juice.  Fermentation started 9/27 in a 55F freezer.   It was dropping 1 gravity point a day for first two months, but have seen things slow substantially the past month.  So far I’ve increased the temp to 65 F and added half dose Fermaid O (0.75 g/gal).  Right now SG is 1.095 and TA 17.2.  Fermentation speed has slowed to 1 point drop every 5 days despite initial interventions.  And it continues to slow as it progresses.

Juice was from an unfertilized apple collector’s orchard, mix of desert and heritage apples.  No sulfates in this batch.  Haven’t racked at all yet. 

Deceleration of my fermentation speed makes me wonder if I’m about to get stuck at a final gravity higher than optimal.  Wondering if I should further intervene now to speed things up a little? And if so, what to do?  Raise temp further, more femaid-0, repatch fresh yeast, or just do nothing and see what happens?

Taste wise I’m happy with how things are going.  The high acidity still impacts the pallet, but flavor is otherwise quite nice. 

I did another batch about a month later with some desert apples form a fertilized orchard.  Similar initial profile (SG 1.153 and TA 16.4).  That one is at 1.103 and dropping a point every two days currently.  I’m planning to let that batch continue to do its own thing for now.

Appreciate it,

Scott

[Claude Jolicoeur]

You really have higi initial concentration there. I usually do mine at around 1.135 SG.

As you have high SG, it is normal to also have high acidity, and you will probably also want higher final gravity - probably 1.075 would be good for the acidity.

If now at 1.095, you'd have 20 more points to go - so 100 days at current speed. I'd let it go, and if speed decreases more, I'd add a bit more nutrients - but not too much!

[Scott Harring]

Thanks Claude,

Very helpful advice.  I decided to blend in a few liters of low acid juice I had frozen into my first batch to even the acid out a bit.  Will see if that gives it a small nutrient boost to keep it fermenting for now, maybe some more Fermaid-O later if it slower further.

Recalculating what my starting gravity would have been with this blending addition I would have had SG 1.139 and 15.5 TA to start.  Right now its SG 1.090 and TA 13.5 post blend.  I haven’t had to decide where to stop an ice cider ferment before.  If I could pick your brain again, would 1.075 still be a decent target, or would you consider going a little lower now?   I appreciate it,

Scott

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I usually bottle my ice cidre at SG 1.060 to 65. I was suggesting somewhat higher for you since your acidity was very high. With lower acidity, you'd want to have your ice cider with a bit less sugar...

My ice cider of last winter is slowly coming along (I started it beginning of March)... Now at 1.068, but I am not sure it will go down much more, and I might have to bottle it at a slightly higher SG than usual... TA is at 13 g/L.

[Andy Backinsell]

Please can I ask, having failed at my first attempt at an ice cider last year.  I have a 23L carboy frozen and ready to go.  Is it preferable to let that defrost in the shed, which is currently around 5°C or bring it inside and defrost more rapidly.  From memory last year I left it in the shed but it was so slow to defrost that I was eventually distracted and let too much water defrost.  What do people do and roughly what volume should I expect from 23L?  The starting SG was 1.056.

Best wishes Andy

[Bartek Knapek]

Starting from similar SG, with a one-pass defrosting I am getting 30% of original volume @ SG 1.120. With a multi-pass frost/defrost cycle I could probably go up to 40% (judging from the total sugar content). Defrosting at 5C sounds good to me - the frozen juice will warm-up more evenly, and you will not need to check upon it too frequently, just once every couple of hours.

regards //Bartek

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[Ian Shields]

I have been doing some ice cider this year.

I haven't tried this but I wondered if it might be possible to take off the concentrated juice as the temperature drops and ice starts to form rather than freeze completely and thaw?

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[gareth chapman]

don't see why not.
Either way I would use Bartek's method and do multi freeze thaws of both sides of the separation to maximise yield and prevent over dilution.

[Andy Backinsell]

Very useful thanks

Looks like I am getting over 5L of 1.135 + juice (hard to tell, the hydrometer stops at 1.130 and it's well clear of that) so far.  If I was to stop and re-freeze, I am thinking I will let the juice thaw totally to let the liquid locked in the ice have a better chance of getting out, if anything to avoid just thawing out the same juice on the extremities - does that make sense?

Andy

[jeff.k...@gmail.com]

I think you'll find that this is messy and impractical, Ian.  I tried this years ago and gave up on it.  

Theoretically it makes sense.  In practice, not so much.  You are taking off a lot of water/ice.  It is much, much simpler to freeze the whole thing then remove the concentrate as is slowly warms up.

[Ian Shields]

Still not got around to trying that method and I expect you are right.

Ian

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[Nick Geoghegan]

Hi Bartek,

thanks for sharing your experienc. Could you explain how you manage the multi-pass cycle? I like the sounds of anything that increases yield!

Do you completely defrost each time? - Taking off the juice up until a certain point?

Our ambient temperature in summer is 20-30C. I assume this would make the whole process trickier?

How do you manage the headspace as the container empties? 

We are planning to try this with IBCs. 

Many thanks,

Nick

[Bartek Knapek]

I am small scale and do not have experience with IBCs. In my multi-pass cycle, I let the frozen juice thaw until I get the desired gravity ~1.020-1.030, then I set this portion aside and continue receiving the juice into another vessel. I do not wait until the ice metls completely - I stop when it becomes subjectively white. Then I freeze this second portion and repeat the cycle. It works quite well for me (at <10C), as the ice is warming up fairly evenly. Not sure how it will work at 20-30C.. I do not mind the air contact during this process, so I take no measures to limit headspace. But when I am done, I set aside part of the concentrated juice and freeze it - I use it later to fill the headspace during fermentation, after rackings. 

cheers//Bartek

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[Bartek Knapek]

desired gravity ~1.120-1.130, of course.. 

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[Nick Geoghegan]

Thanks, Bartek!

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