What can you do with a 500 point Djinn?

[Mark Jones]

The first knock on Sura's door came early. She was ready, though. She walked to the door and placed her cup of coffee on the side table there. An ornate wooden box about the size of a fat hardback book, with a hinged lid was already there. She picked it up before opening the door.

Eight year-old Perri Harper stood on her doorstep, her mother beside her. Mrs. Harper looked uneasy but gave Sura a game smile. Perri, on the other hand, wore a huge grin. She jumped in place and shouted, "Trick or treat!"

"But it's not Halloween," Sura objected.

"First day of school!" Perri cried, as if that trumped all.

"Well," Sura said, producing the box from behind her front door, "if you're sure. Which will it be?"

"Trick!" Perri announced. "I want blonde hair like Lisa Dunning!" Perri's hair was dark and curly, cut short to keep it manageable. 

Sura held out the box to Perri, giving her mother a questioning glance. Mrs. Harper nodded once and looked away. Uncomfortable with the situation but willing to go along. Good enough.

Perri opened the lid to reveal a box full of glitter. The lid contained a mirror. Sura took a pinch of glitter from the box and sprinkled it over Perri's head. Perri's dark hair writhed, provoking giggles from the girl, then straightened and lengthened, its color fading. When it was done, she had waist-length honey blonde hair and bangs.

Mrs. Harper's eyes widened, darting from Perri's now blonde hair to Sura and back again. Perri was transfixed, staring at herself in the mirror and toying with her new locks, and beaming. Mrs. Perry touched her daughter's hair tentatively, then gathered a handful of golden hair, gauging its weight and texture.

"It looks so real," she said, mostly to herself. Then she looked at Sura. "it feels real."

"Well, it wouldn't be much of a trick if it didn't," Sura said. "Tomorrow it will be just the same as it ever was," she added, because she thought Mrs. Harper could use the reassurance.

It seemed to help. Her smile this time was more relaxed. "She's been talking about this for weeks." Her gaze shifted to her daughter. "What do you say, Perri?"

Perri dragged her gaze away from the mirror, though she continued to pet her hair. "Thank you, Miss Sura."

"You're welcome, Perri. Off to school with you now. Pay attention in class and learn lots."

"I will!"

Sura closed the box and watched Perri and her mother down the walkway to the sidewalk. Perri waved as they continued toward Ridgeview Elementary. When the street was empty again, Sura closed the door and set the box on the table to await her next visitor.

Other schoolchildren, with or without their parents, would pass by Sura's home this morning. 

Some would come this way specifically to knock on her door. Others simply passed this way by reason of geography. More would continue past than would stop, many more. But a few would stop to experience a bit of magic, and maybe learn that not everything supernatural was was dangerous or frightening.

Sura opened her door a few minutes later to find two boys standing there. She recognized them as Alvin and Sam, the two youngest of the three Butler brothers. Their elder brother, Micah, was loitering by her front gate, trying desperately to look too adult for such childish games. "Trick or treat," they said, with somewhat less enthusiasm than Perri had. But they were ten and twelve, and no doubt felt bit embarrassed to say it. But rules were rules. "Which will it be? Sam, you're the youngest, so you get first pick." "Wolverine claws!" Sura chuckled. "No. You're on your way to school." "Told you," Alvin said. "My turn!" "No," Sura said, "he can choose something else." "Okay, then, I want some pirate treasure," Sam said. "Done." Sura offered him the box. He lifted the lid. The mirror was gone. In place of glitter, the box contained only a leather pouch. Sam grabbed it and tried to lift it, then used both hands. "It's heavy." "Gold is," Sura said. Sam opened the pouch and he and Alvin stared at the contents: a large number of silver coins and a smaller number of golden ones, a strand of pearls, and a few gems. "Wow!" Sam pulled a few coins out and let them slip through his fingers back into the pouch. "That's so cool!" "Enjoy them," Sura said, "but don't trade them to anyone unless you tell them the treasure won't last. I'd be very disappointed to hear that you cheated someone." Sam nodded, his attention still on the contents of the pouch. "I won't." Sura turned to Alvin. "And you?" He half-turned to glance over his shoulder at Micah before meeting Sura's gaze again. "I want to be the big brother for a change." Sura considered his request. The Butler brothers were rambunctious, competitive and occasionally mischevious, but she'd never seen any evidence that they fought seriously, with one another or anyone else. "Very well." She offered him the box. A sprinkle of glitter later, Alvin stood a foot taller than his older brother, looking like a sixteen year-old version of himself. "Wow," he said, peering at himself in the mirrored lid--and startled at the sound of his own voice. "Thanks." Sam and Alvin departed. Sura caught Micah's eye and lifted box slightly, silently offering him a chance. He shook his head. When Sam and Alvin rejoined him, they moved down the street, Micah slouching along with his hands in his pockets. Another child stood partway up the walk, waiting to be acknowledged. Sura turned to the child. "And what can I do for you?"

[Gotham]

I can see you have already decided what to play.

What does this character look like?

[Mark Jones]

Not necessarily. I wrote this a couple of years ago for a character I played (briefly) in an online game. That said...

[Chris B]

It sounds more like Catherine Bell from The Good Witch.

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[Ian Sheadel]

Cool concept, though her motivations remain a mystery.  Seemingly very broad but doable 'fairy dust magic'

~Ian

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[Mark Jones]

Well, her motivations in that other game were quite different, and fairly simple: to show the non-supernatural citizens of that town that magic isn't necessarily evil or dangerous. Her motivations for adventuring in Champions? Who knows?

Oh, wait. I do! Adventure! Romance! The Thrill of Victory! The Thrill of Twisting Reality To Her Will! Or of Fooling People Into Thinking She's Twisting Reality To Her Will!

The fairy dust is just a prop, like a stage magician's prop. Nothing more.

[Chris B]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 7:32 PM 'Mark Jones' via CHAMPIONS of the Northwest <champions-of-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Well, her motivations in that other game were quite different, and fairly simple: to show the non-supernatural citizens of that town that magic isn't necessarily evil or dangerous. Her motivations for adventuring in Champions? Who knows?

Oh, wait. I do! Adventure! Romance! The Thrill of Victory! The Thrill of Twisting Reality To Her Will! Or of Fooling People Into Thinking She's Twisting Reality To Her Will!

The fairy dust is just a prop, like a stage magician's prop. Nothing more.

Sounds like she needs to come to Gotham!

[Gotham]

Sounds like she needs to come to Gotham!

Her powers seem extreme for Gotham. She would fit better in Evergreen :)

[Chris B]

On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 7:59 AM Gotham <portlan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sounds like she needs to come to Gotham!

Her powers seem extreme for Gotham. She would fit better in Evergreen :)

If by extreme you mean nice and kind, I can't argue with that.

[Mark Jones]

OR...MAYBE A NEPHILIM (OFFSPRING OF A HUMAN AND AN ANGEL)....

Claire Harrison was born in 1900 in a small village outside London. She grew up in the shadow of the Great War, and became an orphan when her parents died in the Spanish Flu epidemic of 1918. England lost most of a generation in the Great War. Claire was one of countless young women forced to fend for herself without family or a husband in the aftermath.

She learned early that she was extremely strong and agile, more so than anyone she knew, but learned early to conceal that fact. People didn't react well. She thought she was simply aging well in her thirties (1930s). By the time she reached her forties, she began to wonder seriously about her unchanging appearance. She was still unmarried when World War II began. She trained and worked as a nurse for the duration of the war, and saw far too many people die. 

It is impossible to live an active life without occasionally getting injured; she knew she healed unnaturally quickly. She didn't know she could regenerate missing limbs until she lost a leg during the Blitz, crushed beneath falling rubble. She was rescued and taken to hospital, where she managed to avoid becoming a nine-day wonder mostly due to the chaotic conditions--no single doctor or nurse saw her more than once or twice, so none realized she'd regrown a leg in only days. She escaped the hospital as soon as possible and lost herself amongst the throngs of London. She married in 1943. It came of a brief, intense wartime romance, and ended with the death of her husband on D-Day.

After the war, she began avoiding her remaining friends, visiting them less frequently as the years went by. It was harder and harder to see them aging, and to pass off her own unchanging youth as the result of exercise, diet and make-up. She also began drinking and carousing heavily, trying to ignore the mounting evidence of just how different she was. She might eventually have tried to discover whether she could kill herself--but she met Harrison Price instead. He was a charming, handsome black man. He was also the first man ever to speak the word "Nephilim" to her.

He was Nephilim, he told her, and so was she--the damned offspring of (fallen) angel and man. The man she'd believed to be her father? No. Also, there were things out there--angels and demons, that would kill them both just for drawing breath. She didn't want to believe him. He demonstrated by slashing his hand and letting her watch it heal. He claimed to be hundreds of years old, and to know exactly what she was going through. He could help her--if she let him. Though she suspected she might regret it, she couldn't let this opportunity pass. She accepted his offer of apprenticeship.

She spent the next decade (the 1950s) as his eager student, learning from him all the things she needed to know to survive in a world where she didn't grow old while all around her did, and where immortal supernatural beings hunted them. He taught her of her heritage, and to use powers she'd never suspected she possessed, and told her everything he knew of the hidden world of angels, demons, and other supernatural creatures.

There were practical skills too, of course: managing money, for one. How to build a fortune over time--and how to survive when, inevitably, you had to abandon everything you owned and start over, as would happen, Harrison assured her, if she lived long enough. How to create and manage false identities in a world with fewer and fewer dark corners in which to hide. How to master languages quickly, and blend into foreign cultures and subcultures. How to fight with guns, blades and bare hands. Yes, they were unaging, and they regenerated, but they were not immortal. They could be killed.

But those things could be taught relatively quickly. Other things took longer. Things like how to maintain your emotional balance when the people you loved inevitably grew older and sicker, and finally died. It was a tricky balancing act, and nobody did it perfectly. You had to steer between giving in to grief and despair and the alternative of cutting yourself off from emotion entirely, existing but not living. Harrison didn't teach her those things explicitly. She absorbed the lessons over time, by following his example, almost by osmosis. 

She also learned crime. Harrison was a criminal, a violent criminal. As Nephilim, he was virtually a superman compared to the billions of humans on the planet. And there was always work for a man willing to get his hands dirty. He taught her what he knew, and what he knew best was crime. Claire became his protege in burglary, robbery, assault, smuggling, and violence of all kinds. She was good at it, and she learned to like it.

Harrison was beyond kind to his friends. He was incredibly generous and caring and absolutely loyal. But a he drew a very small circle--and everyone outside that circle was fair game. That became her world, and her worldview. She stayed with Harrison for three decades, first as his student, later as his partner, before setting out on her own. They remained close friends, but saw one another only occasionally, when their paths crossed by accident as they traveled the world and pursued their separate interests. They had centuries ahead of them, after all.

In the last few years Claire began to hear disturbing rumors about Harrison, rumors that he was killing wantonly, indiscriminately. That he was behaving irrationally and recklessly. She gave them no heed at first, but they continued, and details began to surface which gave them plausibility. But it wasn't until Harrison turned up at her home one night to confirm them himself that she believed. As they drank and reminisced, Harrison didn't merely confirm the rumors--he boasted of his actions, of the cruelty he now displayed, the utter contempt he felt for the humans around them, and his hatred for one man in particular, another supernatural who had thwarted him several times.

Claire was appalled. How had the honorable man she'd known become such a monster? Could she have been wrong about him all this time? She never doubted that she could still trust him with her life, but otherwise he seemed a stranger. Perhaps he sensed that. When morning came, he was gone. She never saw him again.

A few months later she received a phone call from the major domo of Harrison's estate in Hawaii. Harrison was dead, killed by a stranger in a duel (though the official cause of death for his current identity was the crash of his small plane far out at sea). She tracked down the man who had killed Harrison and confronted him. He was wary but curious. He didn't know whether she'd come to try to kill him or not, and honestly she didn't know herself. 

In the end, all they did was talk about Harrison long into the night over a great deal of alcohol. When morning came he still hated Harrison (for good and sufficient reason, Claire had to agree) and she still loved him, but they both understood him better. She still didn't know what, exactly, this stranger was. Nephilim? Angel? Demon? Vampire? They parted on cordial terms, though, and that was enough. He left her with two final words for when she tired of the violent lifestyle she'd led for so long: Cross Creek.

After spending more than year settling Harrison's affairs, Claire finally returned to her home town. It wasn't the place she remembered. The tiny village was largely unchanged, save that the graveyard was larger, her peers were all dead, and strangers filled the streets. She decided it was time to leave England.

She wound up her own affairs, laid the groundwork for an eventual return (the creation of birth documents that would one day be the basis of another new identity, preparing caches of cash and valuables for a rainy day), and then emigrated to America under a new identity--Claire Harrison, named after her mentor. She's done with the identity she was born with, and with all the identities she used with Harrison.

She's done with the lifestyle she learned from him. She doesn't know what caused him to change so completely, but she doesn't want to risk becoming the monster he did. It's time to reinvent herself. She's not sure what she'll find in Cross Creek, but it's worth investigating.

[Gotham]

What type of character do you feel like playing? I know you have hundreds of stories for each of your characters. 

[Mark Jones]

I don't know. So I'll do what I usually do.

Start building several, and see which one I get most excited about playing. So far the contenders are:

Another flying brick like Rose. But probably. I want something new.

A flying energy blaster (kinda like Captain Mavel, now that you've seen the movie)

the Djinn character (less of a front-lines character, more of a support type--but able to survive a fight and dish out damage)

Claire, the Nephilim, a brick/weapons master.

Kinetic, the flying energy blaster with TK powers

I'm not going to do a martial artist. I decided the Master of Sinanju was just too much.

[Gotham]

Well I'm not playing the martial artist. So it is open.

I'm going to be a "special" type hehe.

You always have fun with the brick type characters just different versions of them. Why not stick with that?

Captain Marvel was a brick - she just has Blast powers.

[Mark Jones]

Well, that's pretty much my take on the Captain Marvel-based character. Still very tough, but with blast powers instead of punching.

But we'll see. I may want to do something more creative. 

[Chris B]

First, if Ian's campaign is the same as Gotham and Evergreen, then Kinetic is a speedster and member of the Champions. Just an FYI.

Second, I'm going to whine a bit, so stand by... 😋

That history on Claire was awesome!  And, it left me wondering, Where the HELL is the write-up for BILL????  I wanna see it!!  It's there; I know it's there and it is probably just as awesome!!  Stop being coy and let's hear the greatness of the Phantom Patrolman!!!  I tried to have the Ranger get him to talk, and he has not been forthcoming, but there is a story, and I want her to know it!!!  If for no other reason, we can sit in awe and bask in the greatness of this historical figure.  Also, we can't pick on him about it if we don't know about it!  So that's it!  No more misses nice blaster.  Cough up the history or Bill's gonna regret it!! 😉 😝 😍

[Mark Jones]

On Saturday, June 15, 2019 at 10:25:21 PM UTC-7, Chris B wrote:

First, if Ian's campaign is the same as Gotham and Evergreen, then Kinetic is a speedster and member of the Champions. Just an FYI.

I don't care! (Huff!)

 

Second, I'm going to whine a bit, so stand by... 😋

That history on Claire was awesome!  And, it left me wondering, Where the HELL is the write-up for BILL????  I wanna see it!!  It's there; I know it's there and it is probably just as awesome!!  Stop being coy and let's hear the greatness of the Phantom Patrolman!!!  I tried to have the Ranger get him to talk, and he has not been forthcoming, but there is a story, and I want her to know it!!!  If for no other reason, we can sit in awe and bask in the greatness of this historical figure.  Also, we can't pick on him about it if we don't know about it!  So that's it!  No more misses nice blaster.  Cough up the history or Bill's gonna regret it!! 😉 😝 😍

I usually post my characters and their backgrounds--but SOMEONE (John) didn't want us to reveal our characters before the game started, so I never got around to it. So here he is:

William (Bill) Powers was born in 1920 and raised in Iowa, a corn-fed farm boy. He grew up, graduated high school and went to work on the family farm until December 7, 1941, when the Empire of Japan attacked Pearl Harbor. Like millions of his countrymen, John volunteered for service. He chose the Marines and was accepted. He saw more action than he ever imagined he would, or wanted to. He fought in some of the bloodiest, most brutal campaigns of the war. He was injured more than once, but never seriously. He was not looking forward to the final push into Japan itself and was relieved to learn that Japan had surrendered following the "atomic" bombing of two cities. He celebrated the victory and impatiently awaited his discharge from the military.

He was sent to Gotham for the last few weeks of his service for reasons passing all human understanding (why they sent him to the east coast from the Pacific was beyond him), but once he saw the city he knew he would stay. He'd grown up on a farm and stayed because it was what he knew. Now he'd seen a great deal more of the world and he knew he had no interest in returning to the family farm. Fortunately he had enough siblings back home that his absence wouldn't be a problem. John wanted to stay in Gotham, where he could see and do and be more than another farmboy. He spent several weeks living off his accumulated back pay while he decided what he wanted to do. And he ultimately decided that he'd put his military background and training to use by joining the Gotham City Police Department. At 25, he was just old enough to apply to and be accepted into the Police Academy. He graduated and became a rookie cop, working under the tutelage of Nathan Castle, his training officer.

It didn't take Bill long to realize Castle was corrupt. Nothing major, just a kickback here and there, a little abuse of his authority, everybody does it, kid. Bill didn't like it, but the war had taught him that theory and practice seldom meshed well. He did his best to learn the useful things Castle knew and turn a blind eye to Castle's unethical behavior. It didn't take long to learn that a lot of cops were dirty, many of them far more corrupt than Castle. Like Lt. (later Commissioner) Gordon decades later, Bill refused to take part in the corruption but stayed silent about it. He did his job, and did his best to minimize the effects of the corrupt cops who surrounded him. This live-and-let-live approach worked for a while, but eventually he stumbled across a violent human trafficking ring smuggling women into the city to work as prostitutes; he investigated despite Castle's pleas to leave it alone as too dangerous for both of them.

Bill didn't listen. He smoked out the ringleaders--a number of fellow GCPD patrolmen and detectives. His dismay (he wasn't really surprised by now) was short-lived: Sgt. Castle shot him in the back when he confronted the corrupt cops at a warehouse on the waterfront. "I tried to tell you to leave it alone, kid," Castle told him as he lay dying. "You never did listen good." Bill lived long enough to experience Castle muttering an apology as he weighted Bill down with chains and dumped him into the river. Bill doesn't remember whether he died of his wounds or of drowning. So Bill was both unsurprised and very surprised when he found himself standing by the river's edge sometime later: surprised to be alive at all, but unsurprised to be standing, soaked and freezing in the winter air, by the river. He remembers that moment vividly even now, decades later. But he remembers nothing more for months. Bill Powers died at age 29, in 1949, having survived everything the Empire of Japan could throw at him, only to be murdered by his partner.

It took Bill years to realize that he wasn't suffering from amnesia. The days, weeks, or months that remain blank remain so because he didn't exist. He was a ghost, but he manifested only fleetingly at first, invariably dazed and unresponsive to the people and events around him. There's no telling how many citizens of Gotham encountered a phantom patrolman, wet and shivering and seeming drunk or drugged or crazy, no telling how many drivers swerved abruptly to avoid the phantom pedestrian who stepped into their path oblivious to the danger--only to vanish again. As time passed, Bill manifested for longer and longer periods of time, and the intervals of oblivion became shorter as well. He became aware of the world around him once more.

Bill was shocked to find himself a ghost, and had to learn the rules of his new existence by trial and error. At first his hold on the world was tenuous, if he was startled--by a loud noise, by a sudden movement--he might vaniish like a soap bubble until he could pull himself together again. Once he learned to hold himself together, he discovered that he was visible, he could be heard when he spoke--but he was intangible. Though he could stand, or sit, or lie on a surface (and in all these decades he still doesn't understand the how or why of that, he just accepts it), he couldn't feel it beneath him--and he could move through any other solid object like--well, like a ghost. He could not touch anything, or anyone. Fortunately, he had no longer had need of food or drink or air, or of sleep for that matter. So things stood for years. 

It was during the early fiftes that Bill discovered a new ability--he could take physical form. If someone offered him hospitality in the form of food or drink, a cigarette, a jacket (he always looked cold), or an offer of sex (it happened), he found himself suddenly tangible and able to accept the offer. Though he didn't need food or drink, it was glorious to be able once again to drink coffee, or beer, and to taste a humburger and fries once more--to say nothing of holding a woman in his arms again. But it wasn't only hospitality--offers of violence had the same effect. If he was (sincerely) threatened with violence (face-saving threats the individual had no intention of following up on didn't count), or if someone took a swing at him, or laid hands on him--he was able to respond. His interventions in crimes he witnessed were no longer limited to loudly witnessing them or feints (running at the criminals in hopes they'd retreat). Now he could actually intervene. And he did. Alas, his tangible form never lasted past the next dawn, whether that was 24 hours or only minutes. He could become intangible again at will, but once he did so he couldn't retake solid form until and unless he was again offered hospitality or violence.

The legend of the Phantom Patrolman took root in this decade. Bill had learned early on that he cannot pass beyond the Gotham city limits, so he has spent his afterlife confined to a single city, albeit a very large one. He knows the city intimately, having walked every inch of its streets and alleys countless times over the years. The Phantom Patrolman most often appears as a young man in a GCPD uniform (increasingly out of date at the decades passed), often soaked and shivering, but willing and able to help those who need it--and kick the asses of those who need that. In some tellings he intervenes in crimes only to vanish when no one is looking, in others he simply appears as a harbinger of death to individuals who were doomed to die. Sometimes he appears in civilian clothing and those he interacts with may not realize who they've interacted with until afterward. There are many different origins attributed to the Phantom Patrolman, all of which involve corruption and murder, and many of the stories tell of the Phantom Patrolman's bloody revenge on whomever is supposed to have killed him.

In truth, for a very long time Bill was too busy mastering his new existence to give much thought to his murder, or to revenge fantasies. By the time he was able to act on them, it had been a decade or more. Most of the perpetrators were dead themselves--Sgt. Castle among them. Some were missing (and probably dead). Others had survived, even prospered. Bill found it more satisfying in the end to interfere in their criminal enterprises, costing them money and prestige, until they were arrested by good cops, or were discarded as useless by their criminal superiors. If they wound up dead as a result, well, Bill didn't kill them so his hands were clean. Inevitably the day came when everyone involved in Bill's murder were themselves dead, imprisoned, or impoverished and miserable. He looked around and saw that there was no less corruption in Gotham. He still had plenty to do--and apparently endless time to do it.

The Phantom Patrolman continued to walk his 'beat' throughout the decades that followed. He learned to take tangible form at will, not only when offered hospitality or violence--though still only for a limited time (for hours, if need be, but ultimately he still spends most of his time as an untouchable ghost). He also learned to vanish and reappear, effectively 'teleporting' short distances, or flying (as an intangible, invisible 'mist') over longer distances.

Bill can change his appearance to a very limited degree: he cannot change his form or face, but can change what he's wearing, so he looks dry (or wet, if it's raining), and can wear current fashions--but only while intangible. Whatever he's wearing when he becomes solid, he's stuck with. Any time he reverts to his intangible form, however, he finds himself back in his 1940s GCPD patrolman's uniform, and soaked.

 

[Mark Jones]

So...what characters is anyone else working on?

I gotta say, I'm having trouble with settling on a design. Part of it is I want to play EVERYTHING! But part of it is that with no limits other than a 200 AP cap...I have no idea what constitutes a viable character. It's all too easy to build a character that is good in theory, but turns out to be utterly inadequate. Unless you get real intimate with the 200 AP cap, you run the risk of having attacks that can't possibly hurt anyone, or being a glass cannon who can't withstand even a single hit. Or far too slow to compete with everyone else who bought SPD 8, or something.

I'm still toying with other builds, but I've statted Rose out at 500 points as a fallback character if I can't come up with something else.

What are YOU guys doing?

[Ian Sheadel]

I will throw this out there for the direction-lacking Mark... 'Someone' has a concept for a demon character magically bound to do good who is supposed to have a fallen angel contact.  So there is a precedence and potential heightened intrigue of an angel / half-angel / fallen angel concept.  As a gm and person, I enjoy the synchronicity of that addition. Just sayin.

~Ian

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[Chris B]

John has an Angel in the Evergreen City campaign.  he's a full on, sent from God. address is in heaven angel 😁.  Maybe they know each other...

As for Mark's character, I think the question being asked is: what is the average damage for a Blast power and what is the average PD/ED for the adversaries that will be used?  Also, what is the average STR, CON, BODY, & END that the characters should target/might see?  If they know the mean of the main powers, then the players can adjust the character likewise.  Usually, the players try to maximize the amount of damage they can do within the active point cap. 

With a 200 AP, we're looking at astronomical amounts of damage (13d6 killing attack and 40d6 Blast).  Should they track to this level of damage (both to give and receive), or is there a lesser amount that they will see in general?

I may be wrong, but that's how I interpreted the question.

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[Gotham]

I say max it out to the 200 AP. We always do that with ever other game with an AP. 

Now if instead of saying 200 AP we go with something like - No AP limit but might be adjusted by GM (Like Gotham) everyone won't have 200 powers being slug around.

For now I'm adjusting my characters to have the 200 active points for damage.  

[Mark Jones]

Sounds like serious overkill, but....

As for your angel--I know it's you, John--don't forget to give him/her/it a normal appearance...and a shapshift into his/her/its true angelic countenance (with LOTS and LOTS of PRE to terrify and awe mortals). Angels in the bible, if you actually read the descriptions, are terrifying to look at and utterly non-human when they aren't hiding their nature (in which case, you may host an angel in your home with no idea who or what he is).

Angel (appearing in the field): "Fear not, for I bring you tidings of great---"

Shepherds: "AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!"

Angel: "I bring you tidings of--"

Shepherds: "AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!" (They flee or faint)

Angel: "I SAID 'Fear not!'"

Shepherds: "AAAAAAAAHHHHHH!"

[Gotham]

Micah just had a PRE of around 60 or so and he was such a fantastic character!

He wasn't all that scary and didn't bring out his wings except in combat (or he needed to fly around the city).

Now as for what Ian said about a "Someone' has a concept for a demon character magically bound to do good"

That isn't me. If I made a demon I would be all evil all the time.

Evil is just so much fun to roleplay out. 

I am still debating if I want to play out Goku or my other character I made. 

I think if Rose is brought into the game Goku would be great to roleplay with.

If you don't bring in Rose I'll most likely bring in my other character. 

My other character is truly different and unique.

[Mark Jones]

Rose as she stands now (even at 500 points) is seriously underpowered. Two average 40d6 hits and she's out. She does better against KAs, but the stun multiplier will still hurt. And with only (only!) a STR 80, she'd doing less than half the max damage.

This will take some thinking on.

[Chris B]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:10 PM 'Mark Jones' via CHAMPIONS of the Northwest <champions-of-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Angel (appearing in the field): "Fear not, for I bring you tidings of great---"

Shepherds: "AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!"

Angel: "I bring you tidings of--"

Shepherds: "AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!" (They flee or faint)

Angel: "I SAID 'Fear not!'"

Shepherds: "AAAAAAAAHHHHHH!"

LOL!! 😂  My wife in binging on the Lucifer TV show at the moment, and this descriptions fits the narrative well!

Plus, it reminds me of the Linus retelling in Charlie Brown Christmas.

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:19 PM Gotham <portlan...@gmail.com> wrote: 

Micah just had a PRE of around 60 or so and he was such a fantastic character!

He is still a fantastic character.  He hasn't left (I don't think); just chillin' in Oregon with the rest of the hippies.

 

Now as for what Ian said about a "Someone' has a concept for a demon character magically bound to do good"

That isn't me. If I made a demon I would be all evil all the time.

Evil is just so much fun to roleplay out. 

That sounds like a Patrick thing to me.

 

I am still debating if I want to play out Goku or my other character I made. 

I think if Rose is brought into the game Goku would be great to roleplay with.

If you don't bring in Rose I'll most likely bring in my other character. 

Isn't Rose in San Angelo?  This is the same universe, I think.

[Gotham]

Boost up her STR to 200 then raise up her PD/ED to match that. 

What can a 200 STR character lift? A small asteroid? The Moon?

Then pick that item up and throw it at people :)

If you need more armor just put the asteroid in front of you so they have to go through the DEF of that first.

[Chris B]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:35 PM Gotham <portlan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Boost up her STR to 200 then raise up her PD/ED to match that. 

What can a 200 STR character lift? A small asteroid? The Moon?

Then pick that item up and throw it at people :)

If you need more armor just put the asteroid in front of you so they have to go through the DEF of that first.

CASUAL USE OF ABILITIES (Champions Complete pg.12)
A character can make Casual Use of any ability that he
uses as an attack (typically STR or an Attack Power). This
means the character uses the ability without conscious
effort as a Zero Phase Action. If the ability has Limitations
or other restrictions that make it take more time or effort
than normal to use, then a character cannot use it Casually.
An ability can only be used Casually against an unresisting
target (such as a door or a wall) or to escape from a Grab,
Entangle, or the like. A character can only use an ability
Casually once per Segment, and can only make Casual Use
of a single ability in a Segment.
When a character uses an ability Casually, he uses it at
half effect (or less, if he prefers). For example, a character
with Blast 12d6 has a “Casual Blast” of 6d6; a character
with STR 50 has a Casual STR of 25; and so on. Using an
ability Casually costs END as normal, but only for the
amount of the ability he’s using (i.e., he would pay END
for a 6d6 Blast, not 12d6). If desired, the GM can extend
this rule to trivial non-attack uses of Powers, such as a
character using his Fire Blast to light candles.

This means a casual use of her strength would be 100 STR, which can lift 25 kilo tons (large bridge, castle) as a zero phase action.  That means she could pick up a castle like we would a pencil.

Higher stats and the effects are exponential.  Although, how does she pick up the moon while standing on the Earth? 😋 

[Gotham]

She will need to pick up "casually" skyscrapers and throw them at people as a 0 phase action. 

How many 0 phase actions can one take - the real question how many times can she casually throw a building at someone?

This is going to be one interesting game.

On Wednesday, June 19, 2019 at 12:43:17 PM UTC-7, Chris B wrote:

[Chris B]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:55 PM Gotham <portlan...@gmail.com> wrote:

She will need to pick up "casually" skyscrapers and throw them at people as a 0 phase action. 

How many 0 phase actions can one take - the real question how many times can she casually throw a building at someone?

This is going to be one interesting game.

The key is "without conscious effort".  If Rose has a twitch where she picks up an office building and tosses it "without really being conscious of what she is doing", then she can do it as many times as Mark likes.  However, ripping out a 30 story building and swinging it around like Harry Potter's wand likely counts as an attack action, even if she can do it with two fingers from her "off" hand. 😅

That said with a casual strength of 100, it's more like she lightly taps the side of a 30 story earthquake proof reinforced building with her fingers as she passes, and the whole thing collapses.  Imagine what she can do with chalk!

[Gotham]

The building would be chalk dust lol.

Don't forget to purchase just 10 points of clinging so you can lift these buildings up without effort. Otherwise you would need to grab a piece of them and I would think that chuck of the building would just tear off. Maybe clinging with an area effect? 

[Mark Jones]

Rose's (and Iron Maiden's) STR is touch TK. So holding the building together when lifting it isn't a problem.

[Patrick Swann]

"That sounds like a Patrick thing to me."

I do have an idea for a half angel/half demon character.

[Ian Sheadel]

Bring it on, Swann! Hahah...

   My impression of the characters thus far is that you can be a better, fuller version of the characters we're used to, but 500 isn't enough to be good at everything.  So you could be stupid strong if you wanted to or have 40d6 attack (which I think is a bit ridiculous) but you're not also going to have any more than mildly superheroic stats if you pump that much energy into a crazy attack power.  My recommendation would be to get an idea for the character, then make a better and more well rounded version of that character (better than you could with 200-300 points).  I'd imagine this would often mean a 150-200 pt multi power and some other powers and / or good stats.  Or a couple of 150ish multis with enough points left over for solid stats and a couple skills.  

   What I've seen thus far gas still lived in the area of 10d6 - 20d6 base attack, maybe a 5d6 NND or Killing attack with some advantages/disadvantages and as high as a 30d6 attack that took alot of time to prepare.  And PD of 20-30 (40 at the most for Goku) with damage reduction.  So, don't feel like you have to do 40d6 to be on par.  Most things are just a somewhat better version of a 'normal'ish character.  With a speed of 5 or 6 and an OCV of 6-8 you'll be right where most others are... (As far as I know).

~Ian

[Chris B]

I had a look at the Evergreen City characters last night.  The "B" team (The Artificer, Tenshi, Capt Davidson, Zero Degrees, Quick Wit) was created at the 500 CP level, with an 80 CP cap.  They all fall in line with the damage Ian was talking about.  Also of note, the "A" team is at less than 400 (around 490-500, with Iron Maiden only in the 480s), as the characters were not upgraded for some reason (left behind to wither and die).

Anyway, that's a primer.  Have a look at your Evergreen characters to get an idea of 500 CP, then you can bump up the power level from there, if you want (with a reduction in something else).

That said, I like the cartoonish idea of a 5 foot something person walking over to a downtown skyscraper or the Freemont bridge, ripping it off the foundations, and using it to whack something without breaking a sweat.  😄

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[Gotham]

and PD of 20-30 (40 at the most for Goku) 

I won't be playing Goku. There is just to many variables with a 200 active point cap.

don't feel like you have to do 40d6 to be on par.

I couldn't get a 40d6 (or even an 80d6 with STR). I don't own that many dice lol.

They all fall in line with the damage Ian was talking about.

hehe - Iron Maiden is going to be picking up building in Evergreen without breaking a sweat. The city will be in ruins before we know it.

"That sounds like a Patrick thing to me."

I do have an idea for a half angel/half demon character.

Would his name happen to be Jack?

[Mark Jones]

I just want everyone to know: THIS is the sort of EPIC action I expect to see in Ian's game!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VThMSqH2vKQ

[Gotham]

Never gonna happen, you want to know why?

TEAMWORK!

I saw so much going on with everyone working together. 

[Chris B]

Definitely Epic, Mark!  If we want to get to this level, then all we have to do is try.  If we make suggestions at the table on a joint attack/action, and the other people at the table are willing to delay and give up their action to make this work, then we can certainly do it.

We has something like this happen in Tyler's game.  When we were in the pet shop and the zombies were attacking, I saw that Shane the Werewolf was doing a lot of damage but was unable to defend himself while dishing it out.  So, I had Pestilence get close to him and go full Block as her action to protect him while he laid waste to the walking dead.  It was pretty glorious on screen.  We should do more of that coordination, even if we don't actually combine attacks for more damage (like the Viper mooks did to the Guardians to good effect).

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[Gotham]

During character design you could work as a team and build up two characters (or 3 or 4) to work extremely well together. One being a Tanks to defend, One being a striker (lots of damage), etc...

Shane and Pestilence just worked extremely well together because one had an extreme disadvantage when attacking he had zero defenses and Pestilence was a really good defender.

You could even build up powers that only worked with another PC around taking up to a -1 disadvantage on a particular power....but that means you would truly need to work as a team from character design all the way into combat - and not have one player get tired of that character to build another one.

Imagine building a Voltron character. 5 lions (characters) that forms into one giant robot hehe. 

 

[Chris B]

Someone on a Hero thread (or maybe it was Kenn) mentioned they do character creation at the table during session 0, so that all of the players can discuss the character's abilities, skills, and powers.  This way, the players actual make a team that compliments each other, vs a bunch of random characters coming together with no intrinsic need to help each other.  I like this idea, and I'd certainly be willing to spend a couple of sessions honing out the characters to work well with the group, while also being independently competent.

I also think it comes out in the play style of the players.  If a character is built to be in a support role (with lots of skills, barriers, entangles, aid, TK, mental, etc), then they should not be charging headlong into the fray.  They should hang back behind the main assault and support their teammates (that is take actions that will meld the battle space in a way that is positive for their teammates and/or detrimental to their adversaries).  On the flip side if you have a tank that's main ability is to absorb damage, then the character should take a position to protect the heavy guns and/or support staff (as John mentioned).  If the character can fly as a primary ability (not just as a mode of transportation), they are responsible for air threats and supporting their teammates on the ground with air support (whether that is a strafing attack meant to distract an opponent, rapid transportation for a colleague, point defense from ranged attacks, herding the enemy into areas of the battle space that are disadvantageous for them, or just adding firepower to that of a ground attack).

Combos like Colossus and Wolverine's Fast ball Special in the old X-Men comics is a great example of team support.  Much of the time Cyclops didn't attack outright; instead, he dictated the targets for his teammates to allow for the most favorable match-ups or double teams, put them into position, and used his eye beams to herd the bad guys or distract them, so another X-Man could deal a heavy blow.

That's what it should be like, if the group wanted to work as a team.  You could still build your characters together for Ian's game, if you are willing to loose them or significantly alter the power sets of your current ones.  In Gotham, we could get together as a group, lay out who has what power, and come up with a way we can augment each other in the battle space.  The new characters being created could then be formed to fill in any gaps or enhance a current tactic.

However, I don't have high hopes for this. 😐

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[Chris B]

I will say this, though.  In the last session of Gotham, we did a pretty good job at Griffin Stadium.  The penguins came out in four neat groups, and we all split to cover one.  Also, it seemed we had an implied shared goal of protecting the civilians first and taking out the penguins second.  This worked well, as we took actions to shield the civvies from the missiles, then the machine gun fire as much as possible.  When we did attack, we tried to use area of effect as much as possible and only when shielding the civilians was either not needed or not an available option.  Thus, we did pretty well.

I also liked how we ignored The Penguin to protect the mourners, and we let Batman take care of Cobblepot.  If Batman wasn't there, I would hope we would have been ok with allowing the Penguin to escape while we dealt with his penguin army.

[Gotham]

For each of Jason's games we have had a session 0 where we need to discuss characters and he goes over the world. 

I think having this session 0 is great for learning about the world we are about to build characters for but, me personally, I will never design a character or even a concept at one of these sessions. It takes me over a week to come up with a solid concept once I know the world. Then it will take me days (possible another week) to design the character in hero builder. Then I submit it on over to the GM which could have some back and forth emails about design which could take days or weeks depending on how busy both myself and the GM are.

When it comes to having characters mesh well without conflict and depending on one another this falls on the GM. Doubling up on certain powers can make one or multiple players feel ineffective. Having a complication that doesn't go along with the team as a whole can ruin game play causing strife as well. 

will say this, though.  In the last session of Gotham, we did a pretty good job at Griffin Stadium.  The penguins came out in four neat groups, and we all split to cover one.  Also, it seemed we had an implied shared goal of protecting the civilians first and taking out the penguins second.  This worked well, as we took actions to shield the civvies from the missiles, then the machine gun fire as much as possible.  When we did attack, we tried to use area of effect as much as possible and only when shielding the civilians was either not needed or not an available option.  Thus, we did pretty well.

Everyone does seem to have the same goal now that is on the team. Even though "teamwork" may not be used the team itself is growing together to rely on one another and support a comon direct objective. I was impressed with the game and really look forward to this Sunday :)

[Gotham]

mental, etc), then they should not be charging headlong into the fray.  

This a poke at Cade? What better way to get the team moving than have the weakest person move into combat :P

 

[Chris B]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 11:10 AM Gotham <portlan...@gmail.com> wrote:

mental, etc), then they should not be charging headlong into the fray.  

This a poke at Cade? What better way to get the team moving than have the weakest person move into combat :P

Nope, but I knew you would ask that. 😁  I added mental as a last minute aside to the power list. However, Cade and Hemmet should not have been the ones to charge into the fray followed closely by Splicer.

[Gotham]

Cade only walked in first because no one else would. They wanted to sit on top of a building across the street discussing "plans" as the attack was happening.  

This was also in the beginning stages of the team so no one knew if they could trust each other.

[Chris B]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 10:55 AM Gotham <portlan...@gmail.com> wrote:

For each of Jason's games we have had a session 0 where we need to discuss characters and he goes over the world. 

I think having this session 0 is great for learning about the world we are about to build characters for but, me personally, I will never design a character or even a concept at one of these sessions. It takes me over a week to come up with a solid concept once I know the world. Then it will take me days (possible another week) to design the character in hero builder. Then I submit it on over to the GM which could have some back and forth emails about design which could take days or weeks depending on how busy both myself and the GM are.

It sounds to me that you are talking Special Effect here and not the core root of the character. For example, if after hearing about the world and the main trails to over come, the players decide they need a two bricks, a blaster for ranged attacks, jack of all trades to fill in the gaps, and a support person.  The players then decide who is going to take on which roll and talk about some basic tactics the team will use in combat most of the time.  This will show a few holes in the strategy (such as if the bricks are taking damage, who can heal them if the support person is occupied or out).  This conversation will lead to the assignment of secondary roles (such as the blaster should get flying and have aid as a lower level power). 

Once the conversation is done, the player will know what their role is in the team and can go off and do what John mentioned, which is develop a concept and choose powers to make that role work.  Afterwards, the group gets back together for a session 0.5 where they introduce their character to the other players, and then a conversation is had to determine more detailed tactics, power/skill/ability overlap, and whether a character concept needs to be overhauled completely or a players decides they want to have a different role than the one they picked initially.  The latter would mean another player would also need to change roles or the other characters need to adjust to fill in for the missing role.  At this time, the players could also decide if they want to have augmenting background stories and let the others in the group know how the character will be played (mood, temperament, complications, etc).

When it's said and done, the group has a Hero Team and the GM has an easier time of creating the initial (and likely follow on) adventures.

When it comes to having characters mesh well without conflict and depending on one another this falls on the GM.

Now as for this being the GM's responsibility, well, I'm a novice GM, so I am unable to handle the number of variables needed to force the players to work as a team.  It would simply be easier if we stopped making a gaggle of lone wolves and focused on creating a team from the ground up.

[Chris B]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 11:19 AM Gotham <portlan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Cade only walked in first because no one else would. They wanted to sit on top of a building across the street discussing "plans" as the attack was happening.  

This was also in the beginning stages of the team so no one knew if they could trust each other.

This makes my point on character creation nicely.  There was initial discussions about roles and tactics to fall back on, so some in the group felt liek that was prudent at the time.  However had the characters already discussed this, and even trained int eh Danger Room a few times before hitting the streets, then this would not be an issue.  The team attacks with pattern Alpha 1, then adjusts as needed.

If the characters were created as a team, they would have been able to interact in-character for a bit before getting into danger, which results in a decent amount of trust in each other's capabilities before engaging.  The military has Basic Training, so any service member from any branch can safely rely on a stranger from another branch (or even another country) to react in specific ways once the chaos starts.  Group training occurs in a controlled environment, so fellow service members can get to know the strengths and weaknesses of those next to them; because once the shooting starts, the time for revelation is over and no plan survives first contact with the enemy.  However, ingrained training means each team member will react in a predictable way.

[Gotham]

It sounds to me that you are talking Special Effect here and not the core root of the character.

I'm talking about core powers. If the whole team can teleport the group and only one person is always teleporting the group why do the other 2 or 3 players have it? Wasted points. Now if that one person can teleport everyone and no one else can do that then that PC feels unique and contributes to the team as a whole. Same for a handful of other powers. Now when special effects come into play it could be things such as really only one person needing to use telepathy to find out the hidden layer of the villain base from someone you captured but you could have another player get the same exact power but can only use it on computers. This would allow each player there own time to fulfill a turning point for the game. I would consider this two distinct core powers.

As for once the GM figures out what uniqueness each character role will be it is up to the group to figure out the style of tactics they each fall into. 

For saying players make a gaggle of lone wolfs the character may not be designed that way it's just the way the player is accustomed to playing. The personality of the player will roll up into the character each time. 

The team attacks with pattern Alpha 1, then adjusts as needed.

Some players want diversity in their gameplay. They don't want to do the exact same thing every combat just because it works. They want to try new things. Other players will stick with known tactic that work. Some players don't want to be told what to do while others enjoy following. There is a multitude of reasons why "Do pattern Alpha 1" will not work with players.

As for working in a danger room, practicing together sometimes will not work. To some this is a dull waste of time and the player just wants to hear "and everyone practices in the danger room" What happens next? Now practicing in a danger room does work when the game first begins but all GM's want to start off with a major battle to bring the players together. Now for a specific thing that needs to be done, such as rob a bank, get to the top of a tower and steal a corpse, assassinate the president, or jump in and get X-item this will need an individual that knows how to gather the intel first, then you need someone who can gather the heroes and knows their strengths and weaknesses to position them in such a way they will be most effective. This would work very well with a military type of mindset - work as a team, but has time as told us not everyone wants this.

If the characters were created as a team

This is a big if. In D&D this works well as "who's going to be the fighter, who will be the healer, who is going to be the mage etc..." there are set classes.

ingrained training means each team member will react in a predictable way.

The only way you get this in a game is after a few combats. Some players rely on survival, some players just want to do lots of damage, others want to watch out for other heroes. It's all how the individual wants to play the character out.

[Chris B]

You're still making my point for me. 😁

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 12:54 PM Gotham <portlan...@gmail.com> wrote:

It sounds to me that you are talking Special Effect here and not the core root of the character.

I'm talking about core powers. If the whole team can teleport the group and only one person is always teleporting the group why do the other 2 or 3 players have it? Wasted points. Now if that one person can teleport everyone and no one else can do that then that PC feels unique and contributes to the team as a whole. Same for a handful of other powers. Now when special effects come into play it could be things such as really only one person needing to use telepathy to find out the hidden layer of the villain base from someone you captured but you could have another player get the same exact power but can only use it on computers. This would allow each player there own time to fulfill a turning point for the game. I would consider this two distinct core powers.

Exactly!  If the players choose their unique role during session 0, there won't be an overlap of powers. 

Using your example, someone chooses to be the transportation person for the team ("bus driver") and takes teleport to fulfill that role.  No one else will take a power that mass moves the whole team; because, it isn't their job.  They have other powers to buy.  On the other hand if the group doesn't say they need someone to get each hero to the scene as a unit, we have our reality in Gotham: each hero does their best to get there as fast as possible but ends up missing the combat.  If we had decided on roles for our heroes, someone would have known they need a power that can round up the team quickly and get them to the scene.

However, not discussing roles means it is up to the GM to try and prevent overlap; which is less efficient and a burden on one player.

 

As for once the GM figures out what uniqueness each character role will be it is up to the group to figure out the style of tactics they each fall into. 

By this time, it's too late.  The heroes are already made and if the players can't (or won't) figure out how the characters can augment each other's actions, then it's a group of lone heroes attacking the problem instead of a team.  We see this now, in every Champions game we've had to date.

 

For saying players make a gaggle of lone wolfs the character may not be designed that way it's just the way the player is accustomed to playing. The personality of the player will roll up into the character each time. 

As for working in a danger room, practicing together sometimes will not work. To some this is a dull waste of time and the player just wants to hear "and everyone practices in the danger room" What happens next?

I'm going to take these two together, since they basically highlight the real problem: the players have a style where they like to make and play lone wolves, the brooding loners or the jack of all trades who can do it all themselves, instead of designing characters that are designed to work in a team.  We are defaulting to the desires of the players who like the lone character and not those who prefer to make team players in a team game!  It would almost make more sense from a character stand point to have five individual adventures where the characters engage their own enemy when it is their phase, instead of an adventure where the characters come together and work as a team to defeat one adversary.

 

The team attacks with pattern Alpha 1, then adjusts as needed.

Some players want diversity in their gameplay. They don't want to do the exact same thing every combat just because it works. They want to try new things. Other players will stick with known tactic that work. Some players don't want to be told what to do while others enjoy following. There is a multitude of reasons why "Do pattern Alpha 1" will not work with players.

This sentence was the end of a longer thought process.  The point of having a set game plan is to have standing orders, so the player and character know what to do initially as they enter the battle space.  We do this now, it just isn't coordinated.  We know what phase everyone goes on.  We know certain characters hit things, others fly around and blast things, while others create walls or entangles or other battle space configuration powers.  If instead the "team" had a battle plan that said (for instance): 1) reconnoiter the area and report back to the team lead; 2) delay action until the team lead issues targeting instruction; 3) carry out instructions and adapt as necessary to accomplish your task; 4) report results back to team lead for further instruction/support needs.  Easy, basic, and does not infringe on anyone's ability to act, especially since if the bad guy lands right in front of the brick it only takes a free action to say, "bad guy just landed in arms reach, engaging."  The lead will then likely say, "roger, engage", but if he/she needs you to do something else so the rest of the team can act or more firepower can be brought on target in a coordinated attack they may say, "hold your action and keep them there, we're on our way to help."

 

As for working in a danger room, practicing together sometimes will not work. To some this is a dull waste of time and the player just wants to hear "and everyone practices in the danger room" What happens next? Now practicing in a danger room does work when the game first begins but all GM's want to start off with a major battle to bring the players together.

First, a danger room battle isn't any less exciting than one in the field.  In fact, it can be more hair raising, as the GM can turn it up to an 11 without the threat of killing the PCs.  We just haven't used it.  In fact, I think we used the Guardian's danger room once; to interview Thunderbolt.  As such, we can't really say it is more boring.

Second, not all GMs want to start with a big battle.  I didn't want to, per se, but I thought it was what was expected of me.  Bringing the characters together shouldn't be a problem, since that would be discussed out of character in session 0 (as I mentioned about backgrounds and such).  They could start in the danger room, or better yet in a role-play scenario (meeting the patron, in a press conference to introduce the new team, kicking back in the team base, etc).

 

Now for a specific thing that needs to be done, such as rob a bank, get to the top of a tower and steal a corpse, assassinate the president, or jump in and get X-item this will need an individual that knows how to gather the intel first, then you need someone who can gather the heroes and knows their strengths and weaknesses to position them in such a way they will be most effective. This would work very well with a military type of mindset - work as a team, but has time as told us not everyone wants this.

Yep, planning is important, and I think it's why our group disn't take to Shadowrun. As you point out, our group (specifically) just likes to run into the situation oblivious of the dangers just to get to the combat quickly.  While that's nice for some players, it's annoying for others.  And what is the result of the "Leroy Jenkins" attitude from the impatient players?  Civilian deaths, uncoordinated attacks that are ineffective, a handful of heroes who always get the spotlight?  Sometimes it's comical (like when the Artificer made a super large hologram of himself while Capt Davidson was actually carrying out the mission which was to stealth-fully determine if the base was for the bad guys.

 

If the characters were created as a team

This is a big if. In D&D this works well as "who's going to be the fighter, who will be the healer, who is going to be the mage etc..." there are set classes.

ingrained training means each team member will react in a predictable way.

The only way you get this in a game is after a few combats. Some players rely on survival, some players just want to do lots of damage, others want to watch out for other heroes. It's all how the individual wants to play the character out.

Champions has lots of hero archetypes: Speedster, Brick, Flying Blaster, Tank, Mentalist, Jack of All Trades, Powered Suit, and others.  Each of these has a predicable build and act in a predictable way. They also fulfill specific roles in a hero team and allow a player who wants to act in specific way (deal lots of damage, rely on survival, watch out for other heroes, always be in the spotlight, be impenetrable,  fly around in a carefree manner, use lots of skills to solve the puzzle of battle without firing a shot, etc).

It all goes back to what role does the play choose in session 0.  They choose it and stick to that role using whatever power, skill, ability, talent, complication, or special effect they need to accomplish their task.

Then once the heroes are built and everyone buys off on them, they start in a simulated combat session to work out the kinks and find out just how far they can go before entering a battle where real (in game) people are in jeopardy.

I think what you said in reply makes my case very well, and I attempted to state your words and show you how they match my concept.  Being cynical, this is an academic discussion; because, our play group will never ever do this in a million years, ever.  Too many of our players like to be secretive about their characters, hoping to have some fantastic reveal while in game, which never happens.  Instead, the character mostly acts as a loner who brushes off questions regarding their background, brushes off offers to help with their complications, and doesn't express their character's thoughts and feelings even between games in stories on the board.  The end result is less role-play and more hopping from one combat to another as the characters operate as if their teammates weren't around.

[Mark Jones]

On Thursday, June 27, 2019 at 5:32:59 PM UTC-7, Chris B wrote:

First, a danger room battle isn't any less exciting than one in the field.  In fact, it can be more hair raising, as the GM can turn it up to an 11 without the threat of killing the PCs.  We just haven't used it.  In fact, I think we used the Guardian's danger room once; to interview Thunderbolt.  As such, we can't really say it is more boring.

I can say that. As far as I'm concerned, a "danger room" scenario is like role-playing our characters...playing a role-playing game. It's right up there with having an adventure (or a tv show/movie/novel) end with "It was ALL A DREAM."

No thank you.

That said, I've been reading this thread and I have a few observations.

1. A Session Zero to figure out what sorts of player characters we're gonna play, so we create a coherent team of characters would be useful.

2. I don't think it's going to happen. As soon as someone suggests they're going to run a game, players start building characters--sometimes before we even know the basics like point totals or campaign background. No coordination or planning between players.

3. I agree that I'm never going to build a character at the table. It's too involved to be done quickly and on-the-fly. That said, hashing out roles isn't impossible--but some players (and you all know who you are) really like not sharing any details of their character until the game begins. Which makes it hard to coordinate with other players about character roles when you have no idea what half the characters are even capable of. I've probably done this myself, but mostly because I got tired of posting my character sheet and background for everyone to see when others weren't revealing anything.

4. I'm not sure how to deal with any of this except maybe when starting a new game (whoever runs it) and taking plenty of time to lay the groundwork. What sort of world is it? What role is the PC group intended to have? Point limits, attack/defense ranges, speeds, all of that. AND what roles will each PC be filling? And spend time on building characters to work together, which would mean, yes, knowing what all the other characters are capable of doing. The question is: are we willing and able to do it that way?

[Chris B]

Thanks Mark.  Good points, and I stand corrected on the danger room.

As for item 4 (...not sure how to deal with any of this except maybe when starting a new game...), the group is starting a new game, with Ian GMing.  You all have a chance to get together on the 2nd, discuss the world, discuss character rolls, and determine what the team's mission will be in the world Ian has laid out.  You can also determine how this campaign will mesh with the other games in the same world, and set the power levels appropriately. 

As a word of advice fro everyone, don't put the burden of balancing characters, their power levels, and setting up a corresponding campaign on a new GM.  Instead, help him by creating a concept for the team, make suggestions as to what adventures would fit the team, and flesh out the bits of the world that need some detail but are being neglected.  If you come at it like the group usually does, it may be too much.  Just say'in.

[Mr. Infernal]

That wasn't me. I am far too OCD to do that. :) For my Sunday game, I made the entire groups' characters! They told me what their ideas were and I implemented them and I revised them and I revised them more. LOL. But my players aren't well versed (not that I am great) in Champions or haven't played since 4th edition. 

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[Gotham]

 Using your example, someone chooses to be the transportation person for the team ("bus driver") and takes teleport to fulfill that role.  No one else will take a power that mass moves the whole team; because, it isn't their job.  They have other powers to buy.  On the other hand if the group doesn't say they need someone to get each hero to the scene as a unit, we have our reality in Gotham: each hero does their best to get there as fast as possible but ends up missing the combat.  If we had decided on roles for our heroes, someone would have known they need a power that can round up the team quickly and get them to the scene.

Gotham did have a "bus driver" They made a new character which left a small void for this roll but there are so many rolls to be played out that as long as none overlap things should be good.

I'm going to take these two together, since they basically highlight the real problem: the players have a style where they like to make and play lone wolves, the brooding loners or the jack of all trades who can do it all themselves, instead of designing characters that are designed to work in a team.  We are defaulting to the desires of the players who like the lone character and not those who prefer to make team players in a team game!  It would almost make more sense from a character stand point to have five individual adventures where the characters engage their own enemy when it is their phase, instead of an adventure where the characters come together and work as a team to defeat one adversary.

This is a GM preference. If the GM wants to design quick solo adventures for each player then have team adventures as a group its up to them. I prefer this style of game as it makes each character closer to the world instead of always having all the PC's connected at the waist all the time.

"bad guy just landed in arms reach, engaging."  The lead will then likely say, "roger, engage", but if he/she needs you to do something else so the rest of the team can act or more firepower can be brought on target in a coordinated attack they may say, "hold your action and keep them there, we're on our way to help." 

You are talking about some type of military tactics along with hierarchy within the group. How many players actually play a character that has military training or even just the simple skill of tactics? Maybe one per game group? 

Now if someone starts a game saying "everyone is part of PRIMUS and you have been working within the organization for a few years. Now build a character" this would fall in line with the above style. Starting a Hero team with characters that haven't been "super" for very long or have 0 idea of combat you cannot expect this from them.

Spending CP to build up to this is also a possibility once a game has started - such as the whole team purchasing "teamwork" :)

First, a danger room battle isn't any less exciting than one in the field.  In fact, it can be more hair raising, as the GM can turn it up to an 11 without the threat of killing the PCs.  We just haven't used it.  In fact, I think we used the Guardian's danger room once; to interview Thunderbolt.  As such, we can't really say it is more boring.

I can say that. As far as I'm concerned, a "danger room" scenario is like role-playing our characters...playing a role-playing game. It's right up there with having an adventure (or a tv show/movie/novel) end with "It was ALL A DREAM."

No thank you.

The danger room is just something you could have in a base. Later on your character wants to explain how he got tactics skill or powered up his killing attack by an extra 1d6 (even though in combat they have never used it). They just say during their off time they have been practicing within the danger to build this up with CP.

Second, not all GMs want to start with a big battle.  I didn't want to, per se, but I thought it was what was expected of me.  Bringing the characters together shouldn't be a problem, since that would be discussed out of character in session 0 (as I mentioned about backgrounds and such).  They could start in the danger room, or better yet in a role-play scenario (meeting the patron, in a press conference to introduce the new team, kicking back in the team base, etc). 

This is a GM preference as well with starting off in combat for a first game. I am not saying this is bad, in fact I prefer this. How many action movies do you know that don't start off with action? James Bond? Mission Impossible? etc... 

I think this sets the stage for the group. Knowing that, yes combat will happen in this game and there will be action.

Champions has lots of hero archetypes: Speedster, Brick, Flying Blaster, Tank, Mentalist, Jack of All Trades, Powered Suit, and others.  Each of these has a predicable build and act in a predictable way. 

Absolutely not. Just because you build a mentalist does not mean your predictable way will be to stay in the background mind zapping people. I've made multiple mentalist that always get in hand to hand combat. The same could be said for a brick which jumps into the middle of a fight, I've seen it where they stay in the background and figure out X while the combat happens and solves the problem. There is no predictable way any archetype will perform this is completely up to the player - which is what makes Champions so much fun.

Instead, the character mostly acts as a loner who brushes off questions regarding their background, brushes off offers to help with their complications, and doesn't express their character's thoughts and feelings even between games in stories on the board.  The end result is less role-play and more hopping from one combat to another as the characters operate as if their teammates weren't around.

Some people have a hard time getting their thoughts and feelings across during game. This group is a casual group that gets together to have a good time. If the person has a difficult time bringing emotions/acting to the table and instead wants to combat - fine. Don't look to force this player into this roleplaying scene just move onto another player that will give you what you are looking for.

I don't think it's going to happen. As soon as someone suggests they're going to run a game, players start building characters--sometimes before we even know the basics like point totals or campaign background. No coordination or planning between players.

Yup - this is me Mark. Otherwise I would never be ready for any game. I'm still working on Cade for the eventuality of Evergreen starting up again (months/years from now?)

I agree that I'm never going to build a character at the table. It's too involved to be done quickly and on-the-fly. That said, hashing out roles isn't impossible--but some players (and you all know who you are) really like not sharing any details of their character until the game begins. Which makes it hard to coordinate with other players about character roles when you have no idea what half the characters are even capable of. I've probably done this myself, but mostly because I got tired of posting my character sheet and background for everyone to see when others weren't revealing anything.

This is me again :) 

I find it more exciting to learn about a character in game instead of reading everything about a character then going to the game. In the back of your mind you already know what this character is all about so you don't ask anything in the game. If you know nothing about this character you are more likely to inquire about them (or you just don't care in general).

Typically if I fill a role such like I'm going to teleport the team around, going to be a mentalist, going to be a brick, or I'm going to cause things to explode, I'll let people know.

As for item 4 (...not sure how to deal with any of this except maybe when starting a new game...), the group is starting a new game, with Ian GMing.  You all have a chance to get together on the 2nd, discuss the world, discuss character rolls, and determine what the team's mission will be in the world Ian has laid out.  You can also determine how this campaign will mesh with the other games in the same world, and set the power levels appropriately.  

Some GM's want to leave things in the dark. You don't know what to expect just build a character. This is one of those games. This would not be a good time to do this type of concept.

As a word of advice fro everyone, don't put the burden of balancing characters, their power levels, and setting up a corresponding campaign on a new GM.  Instead, help him by creating a concept for the team, make suggestions as to what adventures would fit the team, and flesh out the bits of the world that need some detail but are being neglected.  If you come at it like the group usually does, it may be too much. 

You can go from someone who is very strict like my game - Gotham (no followers, no VPP's, multipower is limited to 5 powers etc...) to a loose run game like Ian's - you have a 200 AP being the only restriction. It's up to the GM on how his world will be structured in the initial startup which will lead to how much leeway character design will be. Since this is such a loose campaign it will need to fall on the GM for power levels etc...

[Patrick Swann]

So what do we know about Ian's game other than the character building rules? What's the setting? I'm asking because I've been building characters and I don't know what I am going to play yet. I'm waiting to decide until I know more about the campaign.

In regards to the topic of teamwork and building the new team to work better together. I agree that it would be a good idea to coordinate our builds. Maybe we should make a list of the roles we think we need and see what role each person would like the most.

[Mark Jones]

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 12:33:16 PM UTC-7, Patrick Swann wrote:

So what do we know about Ian's game other than the character building rules? What's the setting? I'm asking because I've been building characters and I don't know what I am going to play yet. I'm waiting to decide until I know more about the campaign.

In regards to the topic of teamwork and building the new team to work better together. I agree that it would be a good idea to coordinate our builds. Maybe we should make a list of the roles we think we need and see what role each person would like the most.

I have no idea. All I know is that it will be "Cosmic." Whether this means 500pt characters fighting really tough opponents...or we'll be sailing the Astra Plan in a Sailing Ship, or traveling the galaxy like the Guardians of the Galaxy, I have no clue.

My PC is going to be a support character more than anything else. I'll be *capable* of doing damage, but that won't be my primary focus. 

[Gotham]

The game will start somewhere on Earth. You can start in any city. You have an active point cap of 200. characters have 500 points to spend. I believe the speeds for characters were decided by the players between 5 and 6. The world is based off the same world we have been playing in - Evergreen, Gotham, and San Angelo. 

That is all the info we have.

[Ian Sheadel]

Mark, awesome vid! I look forward to flying shield balls in our campaign hahah.

   You don't need to have the 'teamwork' skill to work as a team.  Mostly you just need to communicate, think big picture, and act in conjunction with the team's goals and strategies at that moment rather than your own independent interests or even damage production.  

   You folks could know each other or be connected at the start but that's not a dependent/mandatory thing.  You will be thrown into a situation together but it will be your jobs to determine group cohesion and cooperation, though I highly recommend you be open to working together with these others (be they strangers or friends).  

   You'll start at home.  We can basically pick a city.  You will be investigating (probably/hopefully), you will be fighting things, you will at times be completing some goal whilst fighting things.  There may be time travel involved.  You may be jumping dimensions at times (with help).  The fate of the multiverse will be at stake. 

~Ian

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 1:03 PM Gotham <portlan...@gmail.com> wrote:

The game will start somewhere on Earth. You can start in any city. You have an active point cap of 200. characters have 500 points to spend. I believe the speeds for characters were decided by the players between 5 and 6. The world is based off the same world we have been playing in - Evergreen, Gotham, and San Angelo. 

That is all the info we have.

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[Gotham]

 

recommend you be open to working together with these others (be they strangers or friends).  

I refuse to work with a demon :)

act in conjunction with the team's goals and strategies

What is the goal? defeat Father Time? Be able to kill off Thanos? 

Speaking of killing will anyone have any issues with characters wanting to kill off villains? 

If we still need a brick type character I can always bring in Goku instead of what I had planned. I'm used to Mark picking up on this style of character but will be a change of pace for me.

[Patrick Swann]

I can do the brick type character. But if you won't work with a demon, then I will have to save your life against your will.

FYI for those of you who haven't seen Avengers: Endgame yet. It's being re released to theaters this weekend. They are trying to break the box office record set by Avatar.

[Chris B]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 2:42 PM Ian Sheadel <shead...@gmail.com> wrote:

   You don't need to have the 'teamwork' skill to work as a team.  Mostly you just need to communicate, think big picture, and act in conjunction with the team's goals and strategies at that moment rather than your own independent interests or even damage production.  

 

You folks could know each other or be connected at the start but that's not a dependent/mandatory thing.  You will be thrown into a situation together but it will be your jobs to determine group cohesion and cooperation...

 

 

...though I highly recommend you be open to working together with these others (be they strangers or friends).  

 

There may be time travel involved.  You may be jumping dimensions at times (with help).  The fate of the multiverse will be at stake. 

 

[Chris B]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 4:49 PM Patrick Swann <tobias...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I can do the brick type character. But if you won't work with a demon, then I will have to save your life against your will.

FYI for those of you who haven't seen Avengers: Endgame yet. It's being re released to theaters this weekend. They are trying to break the box office record set by Avatar.

[Ian Sheadel]

That's alot of things Chris. Well memed!

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 4:02 PM Gotham <portlan...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

recommend you be open to working together with these others (be they strangers or friends).  

I refuse to work with a demon :)

Ugh... So demanding this one

[Chris B]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 7:18 PM Ian Sheadel <shead...@gmail.com> wrote:

act in conjunction with the team's goals and strategies

There are no team goals; they don't even know each other yet!  

Another proof of my point 😁

[Mr. Infernal]

I refuse to work with a demon :)

I'll have you know that Mr. Infernal is NOT a demon and would be insulted greatly if he was ever called that. He's a devil, which is much different. :)