Help with Raw water issue

[David Knecht]

Hi- I posted this on the cncphotoalbum site, so apologies if this is a duplicate.  The answers I got there were helpful to think about, but I am hoping people with similar boats and engines might have more insight.  The boat has only been in the water for a few weeks.  The engine seemed fine bringing it from winter marina to summer and for the last few weeks, then last week I noticed that the exhaust water sound was different.  It seemed like less water or no water was coming out of the exit port.  Then I noticed that the water temp gauge was not reading- ie it was pegged at zero similar to when the engine is off.  I only ran it for a few minutes to get to my mooring and when I got there, I closed the seacock and opened the strainer and when I partially opened the seacock with the lid off, water started overflowing, so it seems the intake port is not blocked.  When I did have a plugged intake port a few years ago, the engine started to overheat, so this is different.  I opened the Sherwood water pump cover and the impeller looked fine.  When I opened the seacock slightly, with the pump cover open, water started coming out of the water pump.  So I don't think there is a blockage at the intake to water pump end.  That might indicate the problem is downstream of the pump or the pump is for some reason not working.

1.  Where is the water temperature sensor?  I can't find a diagram showing the water circulation system but I would expect it to be measuring the antifreeze temp, not the raw water temp. Is that true?  Does the fact that it is not reading imply perhaps that it is not immersed and that would be a clue to the problem if I knew where it is located.  

2.  Someone on the listserv suggested mixing elbow or plugged muffler.  I did not think the Universal M4-30 had a mixing elbow like the Yanmars.  I had that issue with my last boat, but had not heard of it on Universals.  What could get plugged over the course of a week in the water?  

3.  Any other thoughts as to how to diagnose and fix this?  

Thanks- Dave

David Knecht

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

[Blair Clark]

I am following and have only one suggestion…do you have a belt that drives your water pump?  If so did you check the tension on your drive belt to pump . If it is loose, heavily worn or adjustment needed, the water may not drive through your pump properly.

I hope this helps.

Blair

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[Helen Tacha]

Let's dive into your questions and concerns about your Universal M4-30 engine's cooling system issue.

1. *Water Temperature Sensor Location*: The water temperature sensor is typically located in the engine's cooling system, often near the thermostat housing or in the engine block. It's likely measuring the temperature of the antifreeze (coolant) rather than the raw water. If the sensor is not reading, it's possible that it's not immersed in the coolant or there's an issue with the sensor itself. You might want to consult your engine manual or contact a Universal engine expert to determine the exact location of the sensor on your M4-30.

2. *Mixing Elbow or Plugged Muffler*: While Universal engines might not have a traditional mixing elbow like Yanmars, it's still possible that there's an issue with the exhaust system. A plugged muffler or exhaust system could cause problems with water flow and temperature readings. As for what could get plugged over the course of a week, it's possible that debris or marine growth could accumulate in the exhaust system, especially if the boat has been in the water for a short period.

3. *Diagnosing and Fixing the Issue*: To further diagnose the problem, you might want to:
- Check the exhaust system for any blockages or restrictions.
- Inspect the raw water pump and impeller for any signs of damage or wear.
- Verify that the water temperature sensor is properly connected and functioning.
- Consider running some tests to see if the engine's temperature increases over time, which could indicate a cooling system issue.

Given your observations, it's possible that there's a blockage or issue downstream of the raw water pump, which could be causing the reduced water flow and temperature reading problems.

Have you considered consulting with a marine mechanic or a Universal engine expert to get a more detailed diagnosis and repair plan?

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[Chuck Scheaffer]

Hi David,

I have the same engine, an M4-30.  All marine engines have a mixing elbow: it's the fitting that injects the cooling water into the exhaust riser so it cools the exhaust gasses before they get to the muffler.  Hot exhaust gasses from a diesel engine run between 400 and 1000 degrees.  Raw water is pumped through the heat exchanger first to cool the engine coolant, keeping it about 165 to 195, and then that water from the heat exchanger is used to cool the exhaust.

The raw water pump has a rubber impeller.  You can't see it turn, because it's hidden inside a cover.  When you pull the impellor, the keyed shaft can become disengaged from the engine.  That shaft is an extender of another short shaft sticking out of the engine, hidden behind the pump bearing assembly.  The impellor shaft has a male tip (similar to a flat screwdriver tip) that engages a female slot of a shaft engaged inside the engine.  Check that they are engaged properly.   With the impellor off, and engine stopped, see if you can turn the shaft by hand.  Put a rag over the shaft and try to turn it with pliers.  It should not turn.   If it does, you need to remove the hoses from the pump, remove the two bolts holding the pump bearing assembly, line up the two shafts and re-engage the pump.  There is a procedure for this alignment, but I have to find it.

You could check the raw water system flow by removing the 3/4" hose from the exhaust elbow and put it in a bucket and crank the engine with the fuel shut off, (pull the shut down cable).  See what goes in the bucket.

If the flow is weak, it may be a clogged heat exchanger, bad hose, bad raw water pump.

Good luck,

Chuck

[Chuck Scheaffer]

Universal M4-30 waterflow diagram

[David Knecht]

I am stuck again on this project and really need more of the excellent input I have gotten previously.  

Status- I confirmed that the raw water pump was pumping fine and that raw water was getting from the heat exchanger to the exhaust riser, so all seems well to that point in the system.  I felt the most obvious culprit was the riser itself as I know those need to be replaced periodically on Yanmar engines.  I had not heard of this issue on Universals (M4-30).  I got the exhaust riser off and was able to order a new one.  It arrived yesterday and I attempted to compare its function to the old one.  I can't convince myself that the old one is the source of the problem.  If I run water from the sink faucet into the input port where the raw water would enter, water comes out the back (where it would go to the muffler) in both the new and old exhaust riser.  I can't see an obvious difference in flow rate between the two.  Is there a better test or is this not meaningful?  Obviously, I am going to install the new one, but I am unconvinced it is going to fix the problem.   The only thing left in the system is the muffler.  I have not heard of anyone replacing this due to blockage.    But most of the people I see replacing their mufflers are stainless steel ones where they begin leaking.  That is not my problem.  I checked all the hoses rearward of the muffler and all are very stiff and look good, so it seems my problem is either the riser or the muffler.  Are there any diagnostics I should do or just go ahead and replace the muffler at the same time as the rest is apart and pray.  Thanks- Dave

[Blair Clark]

Sorry david i do not have anything to add but am interested in what you may find.

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[Chuck Scheaffer]

Hey David,

If I remember right, the problem was "no water exiting the exhaust, just exhaust gasses".  And temperatures rose on the engine and you shut it down.  So water wasn't getting to the muffler.

From your sink test, it sounds like the riser isn't the problem, but you may as well replace it, if you have a new one.  I found plumbing supply houses now carry stainless pipe and replaced all the fittings with stainless when I did mine.  

I hope you can replace the studs for the riser flange.

I doubt the muffler is the problem.  I suspect a hose has a problem internally, and a flap of rubber has restricted the water flow.  It's expensive but prudent to just replace all the hoses, especially if they are older than ten years.  I replaced all of them when I first bought my boat in 2002 as insurance against problems.  Hoses were cheap then.   I replaced them all again when I did my transmission job.  By then, they were 20 years old.  The increase in flow was amazing.   (I also replaced all the fuel lines when I upgraded the tank.)  I replaced the exhaust hose also, and Vetus makes a very flexible hose just for this.  I think I used 14 feet, and it is $$$$.  If you replace yours, measure the old hoses and buy a little extra to be sure.  You can also use string to measure hoses.

Yesterday I hauled my boat and started on the bottom.  Poor planning has me wet sanding the bottom in 100 degree heat.  Wet the hull, scrub off last year's paint with a brown 3M scrub pad on a doodlebug, rinse the hull, shower myself with hose, touch up with 80grit, repeat.

Chuck

[Harvey Hauschildt]

 I may be late to this conversation, but have you checked your raw water strainer. A few years ago, I noticed very little water was coming out of my exhaust pipe and found the strainer was full of sea grass. I know its simple but sometimes that's the solution.

---

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Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2025 6:46 AM
To: cc-...@googlegroups.com <cc-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Help with Raw water issue

 

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[David Knecht]

Hi Harvey- Following suggestions from the list, I have worked from the strainer through the system.  I had a diver check the through hull (it was fine) and found the water from the strainer to the pump is fine.  Raw water pump to heat exchanger is good.  Heat exchanger to exhaust riser is good.  By good I mean plenty of water is coming out of the detached hose, but of course, I have no comparison to what it looks like when all is well.  Only that things are not obviously restricted.  When I took the hose off the exhaust riser (from the heat exchanger) and put it in a bucket and ran the engine, in the time it took me to get from the starter button to the rear compartment I had at least ½ gallon of water in the bucket.  That seemed good to me.  So the problem seems to be after that point, which is the riser, muffler and hoses.  I have a new riser, although I can see nothing wrong with the old one.  The muffler looks OK from the outside, but will put my endoscope on it tonight.  Waiting for the heat to subside to get back to it.  I am considering replacing all the hoses from the riser to the through hull but have not decided on that yet.  My fear is that I will put it all back together and (1) it will work fine and I will never know what was wrong or (2) it will still be overheating with little water flow and I will still not know what is wrong.  If that happens, I guess a professional (tow to marina) is the plan.  Dave

David Knecht

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

On Jun 25, 2025, at 2:03 AM, Harvey Hauschildt <hausc...@msn.com> wrote:

 I may be late to this conversation, but have you checked your raw water strainer. A few years ago, I noticed very little water was coming out of my exhaust pipe and found the strainer was full of sea grass. I know its simple but sometimes that's the solution.

---

From: cc-...@googlegroups.com <cc-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Chuck Scheaffer <scheaff...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2025 6:46 AM
To: cc-...@googlegroups.com <cc-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Help with Raw water issue

 

Hey David,

If I remember right, the problem was "no water exiting the exhaust, just exhaust gasses".  And temperatures rose on the engine and you shut it down.  So water wasn't getting to the muffler.

From your sink test, it sounds like the riser isn't the problem, but you may as well replace it, if you have a new one.  I found plumbing supply houses now carry stainless pipe and replaced all the fittings with stainless when I did mine.  

I hope you can replace the studs for the riser flange.

I doubt the muffler is the problem.  I suspect a hose has a problem internally, and a flap of rubber has restricted the water flow.  It's expensive but prudent to just replace all the hoses, especially if they are older than ten years.  I replaced all of them when I first bought my boat in 2002 as insurance against problems.  Hoses were cheap then.   I replaced them all again when I did my transmission job.  By then, they were 20 years old.  The increase in flow was amazing.   (I also replaced all the fuel lines when I upgraded the tank.)  I replaced the exhaust hose also, and Vetus makes a very flexible hose just for this.  I think I used 14 feet, and it is $$$$.  If you replace yours, measure the old hoses and buy a little extra to be sure.  You can also use string to measure hoses.

Yesterday I hauled my boat and started on the bottom.  Poor planning has me wet sanding the bottom in 100 degree heat.  Wet the hull, scrub off last year's paint with a brown 3M scrub pad on a doodlebug, rinse the hull, shower myself with hose, touch up with 80grit, repeat.

Chuck

On Mon, Jun 23, 2025 at 7:28 AM David Knecht <davida...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am stuck again on this project and really need more of the excellent input I have gotten previously.  

Status- I confirmed that the raw water pump was pumping fine and that raw water was getting from the heat exchanger to the exhaust riser, so all seems well to that point in the system.  I felt the most obvious culprit was the riser itself as I know those need to be replaced periodically on Yanmar engines.  I had not heard of this issue on Universals (M4-30).  I got the exhaust riser off and was able to order a new one.  It arrived yesterday and I attempted to compare its function to the old one.  I can't convince myself that the old one is the source of the problem.  If I run water from the sink faucet into the input port where the raw water would enter, water comes out the back (where it would go to the muffler) in both the new and old exhaust riser.  I can't see an obvious difference in flow rate between the two.  Is there a better test or is this not meaningful?  Obviously, I am going to install the new one, but I am unconvinced it is going to fix the problem.   The only thing left in the system is the muffler.  I have not heard of anyone replacing this due to blockage.    But most of the people I see replacing their mufflers are stainless steel ones where they begin leaking.  That is not my problem.  I checked all the hoses rearward of the muffler and all are very stiff and look good, so it seems my problem is either the riser or the muffler.  Are there any diagnostics I should do or just go ahead and replace the muffler at the same time as the rest is apart and pray.  Thanks- Dave

David Knecht

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

<pastedGraphic.tiff>

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[Blair Clark]

Hi David,

Like GHarvey I do not want to burden you with repeat suggestions so for what it is worth here i come;\

I understand your issue as being that you are not pumping raw water through your system.

If this is correct one can only assume that there can only be two issues:

1) Pressure is insufficient to push raw water through afre flowing system

2) There is a blockage in the system

If A then there are two plausible reasons:

i) The water flow to pump is restricted

ii) The water pump is faulty

To test both in hopes of Isolating if not done so already perhaps try:

1) Hook a water hose up to the outflow of the water pump. Check flow at the back of boat exhaust. If free flowing pump is most likely issue. It may have enough power to free fl;ow before riser but not through the muffler and exhaust hose.

2) If not free flowing at back of boat then there is an obstruction that should be able to be found by breaking line where possible and flowing hose water through different sections.

Like i say you may have tried all this already and hope it is more of a help than annoyance.

Good luck

Blair

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[David Knecht]

Update- steps forward and backward.  I finally found a marine mechanic to help and discuss the issue with me.  He got very invested as it was clear from what I have done that the problem was not obvious and he wanted to know the answer.   He also thought the riser was the likely source of the problem, but did not think the muffler or exhaust tubing was likely ( possible, but not likely).  So he offered to cut the old riser in half to see what it looked like.  Out came the Sawzall and three batteries later, we had it apart. I had never seen the inside a diagram of how it works, so I was intrigued.  Here is the result- very simple and nearly pristine after 25 years of use!!  They got something right in the design vs. the Yanmar that constantly gets plugged up.  It was a waste of money and time to replace for me, but good for others to know that if you were worried about that maintenance question- stop worrying if you have a Universal/Westerbeeke.

SO clearly, this was not the problem.  Going over details, the mechanic keyed in on the fact that I had trouble getting the raw water pump to self-prime and he thinks that is the source of the problem.  It is pumping water, but not generating enough pressure/vacuum to push water through at the expected rate.  This is consistent with the fact that I have had trouble getting the water pump to pull antifreeze from a bucket into the engine through a tube on the hard.  Others say that works fine on their boat/engines so this may be in indicator that the pump is not working well.  I have learned that the balance of muffler size, engine size, exhaust tubing length and size generates a complicated formula for making the whole water lift muffler setup work correctly as well.  Possibly, I see water getting to the exhaust elbow, and it may look fine when unloaded, but when there is resistance, it is not able to put out enough water.  I am unconvinced, but we shall see. 

SO- I have been looking for an excuse to replace the idiotic Sherwood water pump with the reverse mounted cover that makes changing impellers a much harder job than it needs to be, with the Moyer Marine drop in replacement Oberdorfer pump.  Excuse in hand, pump is ordered and I will begin reassembling everything else while I wait for it.  Replacement is supposed to be easy.  We shall see.  Dave

David Knecht

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

On Jun 25, 2025, at 8:25 AM, Blair Clark <blairc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi David,

Like GHarvey I do not want to burden you with repeat suggestions so for what it is worth here i come;\

I understand your issue as being that you are not pumping raw water through your system.

If this is correct one can only assume that there can only be two issues:

1) Pressure is insufficient to push raw water through afre flowing system

2) There is a blockage in the system

If A then there are two plausible reasons:

i) The water flow to pump is restricted

ii) The water pump is faulty

To test both in hopes of Isolating if not done so already perhaps try:

1) Hook a water hose up to the outflow of the water pump. Check flow at the back of boat exhaust. If free flowing pump is most likely issue. It may have enough power to free fl;ow before riser but not through the muffler and exhaust hose.

2) If not free flowing at back of boat then there is an obstruction that should be able to be found by breaking line where possible and flowing hose water through different sections.

Like i say you may have tried all this already and hope it is more of a help than annoyance.

Good luck

Blair

On Wed, Jun 25, 2025 at 9:07 AM David Knecht <davida...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Harvey- Following suggestions from the list, I have worked from the strainer through the system.  I had a diver check the through hull (it was fine) and found the water from the strainer to the pump is fine.  Raw water pump to heat exchanger is good.  Heat exchanger to exhaust riser is good.  By good I mean plenty of water is coming out of the detached hose, but of course, I have no comparison to what it looks like when all is well.  Only that things are not obviously restricted.  When I took the hose off the exhaust riser (from the heat exchanger) and put it in a bucket and ran the engine, in the time it took me to get from the starter button to the rear compartment I had at least ½ gallon of water in the bucket.  That seemed good to me.  So the problem seems to be after that point, which is the riser, muffler and hoses.  I have a new riser, although I can see nothing wrong with the old one.  The muffler looks OK from the outside, but will put my endoscope on it tonight.  Waiting for the heat to subside to get back to it.  I am considering replacing all the hoses from the riser to the through hull but have not decided on that yet.  My fear is that I will put it all back together and (1) it will work fine and I will never know what was wrong or (2) it will still be overheating with little water flow and I will still not know what is wrong.  If that happens, I guess a professional (tow to marina) is the plan.  Dave

David Knecht

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

<pastedGraphic.tiff>

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[Chuck Scheaffer]

Thanks for the photo of the exhaust riser cut open.  

I stated in an earlier post, that the riser was well engineered.  The picture shows how the casting works like a radiator, transfering heat from the exhaust gasses before mixing with the water.

C    

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[Harvey Hauschildt]

Wow, you have done more than I would ever consider doing myself. I wish you the best and understand your concerns. I have several on my boat but nothing compared to yours.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cc-3436/DCB4A35C-559D-4FC2-B907-97D9F012EAD5%40gmail.com.

[David Knecht]

my rudder has developed an annoying squeek as it moves slightly back forth at anchor. The shaft is exposed so i am wondering if others had this issue and if lubrication of some type can be added to the shaft to alleviate it. Thanks Dave

[Chuck Scheaffer]

Hi David,

Whatever you use it will wind up draining into the water.  Maybe something bio-degradeable like fish oil, like from a can of tuna.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=food+grade+oil+lubricant&hvadid=694514850957&hvdev=c&hvexpln=67&hvlocphy=9008165&hvnetw=g&hvocijid=10577408362824716012--&hvqmt=e&hvrand=10577408362824716012&hvtargid=kwd-321570088682&hydadcr=981_1014986899&mcid=5ad166373fb13f56987cf0b86d886abc&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_5gzqc0bkvt_e_p67

Chuck

FWIW, when I anchor, I usually find the swing is reduced by setting the rudder to one side and locking the wheel, brake and/or autohelm clutch.  When I had my rudder out in 2005, I drilled the fiberglass shaftlog for grease bearings and I pump a food grade synthetic grease in there once a year.

On Sun, Jun 29, 2025 at 1:10 PM David Knecht <davida...@gmail.com> wrote:

my rudder has developed an annoying squeek as it moves slightly back forth at anchor. The shaft is exposed so i am wondering if others had this issue and if lubrication of some type can be added to the shaft to alleviate it. Thanks Dave

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[Blair Clark]

On our C&C 30 II there was a “zero” fitting on the fibreglass housing on floor of hull that the rudder shaft passed through. It worked great to stop the squeak.

I do not see such a fitting on our 34+ but wonder if you may have one there if you have not already looked.

If you do food grade grease should work.

Blair

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[David Knecht]

On my old 34, I added zerc fittings to grease the shaft.  I had not realized this before, but on my 34+ the shaft is partially exposed.  I could add zerc's, but I am tempted to try to use a lubricant (like fish oil, Boeshield, etc.) that will run down the shaft from the exposed portion???  Dave

David Knecht

Emeritus Rear Commodore/Thames Yacht Club

Emeritus Professor/University of Connecticut

Basketball Capital of the World

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[Ben Sutton]

My 34+ has a zerc fitting on the lower part of the rubber tube. It is on the starboard side and can be accessed in the starboard aft cockpit locker. I has assumed this was a standard set up and am surprised if it is not. Note the upper tube is not lubricated but instead has a Derin (HMPE) ring which shouldn’t need lubricant.

Ben Sutton

Evangeline C&C 34+

BC

On Jun 30, 2025, at 5:41 AM, David Knecht <davida...@gmail.com> wrote:

On my old 34, I added zerc fittings to grease the shaft.  I had not realized this before, but on my 34+ the shaft is partially exposed.  I could add zerc's, but I am tempted to try to use a lubricant (like fish oil, Boeshield, etc.) that will run down the shaft from the exposed portion???  Dave

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[David Knecht]

Hi Ben-  Thanks for the tip. I was looking from the port side, so I will check the starboard side next time I am on the boat.  I will report back so we know if it is standard.  Dave

David Knecht

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

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[Francois Rivard]

Hi, 

I just sprayed basic lithium grease under the capstan, and that took 2 minutes, 6-7 years ago.  Never another problem. On mine it was squeaking a bit in the winter, I guess the colder temps made the fiberglass tube shrink some.  I researched it at the time, and Delrin is pretty much impervious to most greases and a wide variety of chemicals. In fact, more so than most plastics, as that was part of Delrin's design specifications. Also, Delrin is supposed to also be somewhat "self lubricating" which might explain why a tiny bit of grease is all it took to get it over the hump / make it happy again. 

Here's a synopsis: Delrin, also known as acetal homopolymer or POM, is a plastic material that exhibits a high degree of chemical inertness. This means it is highly resistant to reaction or degradation when exposed to a wide range of chemicals and solvents. Its inherent chemical resistance contributes to its overall durability and longevity, making it a desirable material for applications in various industries. 

So, no worries mate. 

-JF 

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[Ben Sutton]

I actually did the same thing but I also used a grease gun on the zerc fitting on the lower tube. One should definitely make sure that is properly libricated.

On Jul 1, 2025, at 11:52 AM, Francois Rivard <jeanfranc...@gmail.com> wrote:



Hi, 

I just sprayed basic lithium grease under the capstan, and that took 2 minutes, 6-7 years ago.  Never another problem. On mine it was squeaking a bit in the winter, I guess the colder temps made the fiberglass tube shrink some.  I researched it at the time, and Delrin is pretty much impervious to most greases and a wide variety of chemicals. In fact, more so than most plastics, as that was part of Delrin's design specifications. Also, Delrin is supposed to also be somewhat "self lubricating" which might explain why a tiny bit of grease is all it took to get it over the hump / make it happy again. 

Here's a synopsis: Delrin, also known as acetal homopolymer or POM, is a plastic material that exhibits a high degree of chemical inertness. This means it is highly resistant to reaction or degradation when exposed to a wide range of chemicals and solvents. Its inherent chemical resistance contributes to its overall durability and longevity, making it a desirable material for applications in various industries. 

So, no worries mate. 

-JF 

On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 9:29 AM David Knecht <davida...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Ben-  Thanks for the tip. I was looking from the port side, so I will check the starboard side next time I am on the boat.  I will report back so we know if it is standard.  Dave

David Knecht

S/V Aries

1990 C&C 34+

New London, CT

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[Francois Rivard]

Come to think of it, I used a grease gun on the bottom zerk fitting as well.  

Any automotive grease is fine. My track Mustang has aftermarket Delrin performance front control arm bushings that have been in place for about 20 years, have been periodically lubed with whatever petroleum based black axle grease that happened to be in my grease gun at the time, and there were never any issues whatsoever. 

JF

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[David Knecht]

Interesting that several of you have mentioned a zerc fitting for a grease gun.  I have now checked both sides of the rudder post and did not see any zerc fittings.  Odd thing to have on some boats and not others.  Dave

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