Sails and wind speeds; when to reef

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

Hey guys,

This is a great topic that everyone could learn from.   When to reef, and which sail first, genoa or mainsail.   So much depends on who's aboard and whether you're racing or cruising.

Anybody have rules of thumb for when they reef?  Windspeeds?  Heel angle?

Chuck Scheaffer, Resolute 1989 C&C 34R Annapolis

[Steve Wilson]

I am always cruising with my wife and I want to keep her sailing with me.   To ensure she is enjoying the sail I reef early.   Plus the boat is more comfortable with only a small heel.  I usually  reef the main first and will go to the second reef early then start rolling in the jib.  I have a 100% jib.  

So basically if I am out with the boys we will have the rail in the water with any one else the boat is fairly flat.   

Not sure on the wind speed to start reefing.  With our boats having a good size rig with a wing keel wind probably doesn’t need to be much over 12 knots to start when on a tight reach or beat. 

I will say we have sailed  with the boat reefed and winds at 22-25 knots and the helm was balanced with no worries. 

 

Steven R. Wilson, CPCU

President

 

Alpena Agency Inc.

102 S. Third Ave

Alpena, Michigan 49707

 

989 354 2175  Business

989 657 4927 Cell

989 354 8974  Fax

 

On Feb 6, 2022, at 9:51 PM, CHARLES SCHEAFFER <csche...@comcast.net> wrote:



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[Harvey Hauschildt]

When I see steady 15 knots of wind I tuck in the first reef on the main and shorten up the 110 to around 90. The boat calms down and has almost no weather helm. I’ve sailed in higher winds without reefing but it’s to hard on the rig and most of the time I don’t have enough experienced crew to manage everything that is going on. 

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On Feb 6, 2022, at 8:05 PM, Steve Wilson <swils...@gmail.com> wrote:

 I am always cruising with my wife and I want to keep her sailing with me.   To ensure she is enjoying the sail I reef early.   Plus the boat is more comfortable with only a small heel.  I usually  reef the main first and will go to the second reef early then start rolling in the jib.  I have a 100% jib.  

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[Matt Cowan]

I grew up sailing dinghies where if it wasn't flat, it was slow.  That still influences my trim on the 36+ although with the wing keel, performance improves with some degree of heel.  So I tend to want to minimize the amount of heel, keep the rail out of the water, and minimize weather helm.

I sail normally with a 95% jib (it's really nice for tacking).  When beating I put the first reef in the main if the wind looks like it is increasing beyond 15 knots, and the second reef as it approaches 20.  At around 23 knots the main comes down.  If we are reaching, the threshold windspeeds are similar or slightly higher.  I don't like to roll in any of the jib - but sometimes will do if reaching or running in 25 knots + (I don't need to go any faster.)  

Matt Cowan

Stargazer XX  36+ #91

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[Francois Rivard]

As mentioned, it depends who's on board. 

Our winds aren't very steady and we typically don't stay on a given sailing point for very long so my "Go To" is furling the Genoa because it's so much easier / quicker than putting a reef on the main.  Honestly, I don't reef the main until I see 16-17+ with the family, 18-20+ with the racing crew. (Depends how steady the wind is) I find that reefing the main "neuters" the boat too much, takes the fun out of the experience.  I grew-up sailing a hot trapeze boat, so I'm a sucker for a good turn of speed...  Plus if you have an able bodied main trimmer who can read the wind / can ease the sheet at the right time and you stay on your toes at the wheel, it's fairly easy to keep the boat footing in pretty decent gusts without reefing anything. 

So, my genoa is a 135, If I'm with the family, and my son doesn't feel like working too hard on the main, I'll bring it down to about 100-110 and that makes things easy while hard on the wind in 16-18 (Apparent). Keep in mind that the puffs don't usually last too long. Then the beauty is: As soon as we feel we've gone far enough up the lake hard on the wind, I ease-up, put her on a reach, dump the furler, and see how long we can keep 'er going 7.5-8+ knots on the way back home :-)   

Potatoes - Potahtoes... 

Francois Rivard

1990 34+ "Take five"

Lake Lanier, GA

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[Jack Huttner]

Interesting topic.  I've sailed Sheratan in some very challenging conditions (Lake Ontario).  On my maiden voyage, bringing the boat home from Brockville, Ont. to Rochester, NY, we had no choice but to sail through the night in a Force 8 gale on a port broad reach, double reef in the main and the #2.  The boat sailed pretty flat but the sea state was terrible, the wheel autohelm gave out and it was a rough ride with a few Chinese gybes (with preventers set) until we figured out how to anticipate and steer out of the possible gybes.  Note: I installed a linear drive autohelm when I upgraded all the electronics. In the Scotch Bonnet Light Race in August 2021, we sailed in a fresh breeze (gusts to 25kts) with a single reef in the main and a #2 (132%).  Boat sailed great with four on the rail, close hauled, STBD tack.  If I were to race in those conditions again, I'd use a #3 and a full main. Sheratan is rigged with boom-end sheeting and a hydraulic backstay adjuster.  One last observation and heads-up.  Beating on a port tack in a stiff breeze, I have to close the through-hull on the sink drain in the head, otherwise, she takes on water.  

Here are the boat's Velocity Performance Predictions (VPP) or polars, a useful tool.  I cannot recall the source for the diagram.  

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[Eric Baumes]

So, reefing and sail selection depend on mode.

When I am cruising I either sail with a genoa that is probably about a 135 with a high cut clew.  I will reef the main at 12 or so apparent upwind. Off the wind I will sometimes just fly the genoa.

Racing, I rarely reef the main and the sail selection depends on how much weight I can put on the rail. These also assume I will be flying a spinnaker downwind. For six crew here are my cutovers.

Apparent wind:

0 - 12 kt #1  -- My #1 is actually cut as a light 1 which I find provides more power in light air

10 - 18 kt #2 -- If the wind is steady I will hoist the #2 sooner

15kt + #3 -- If the wind is steady I will hoist the #3 sooner

I will reef the main with the number 3 at 20+ apparent. I rarely reef with the 1 or 2. 

If I have more crew I will hold out to the higher end of the range, less and I will go with smaller headsail earlier.

To echo Matt's point flat is fast. 10-15 degrees is optimal and anything consistently above 20 and the boat is slowing down.

Eric

 

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[Matt Cowan]

Jack - thanks for the polars.

Good point about the port tack water intake through the sink in the head.  First time I found this we were 3 hours offshore in Georgian Bay beating into 15-18 knots and the head floor had 2" of water...... Found out why the books say to close through hulls.

Matt.

On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 11:14 AM Jack Huttner <jhut...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Francois Rivard]

Agreed, 

Some heeling = good, rail in the water = might "Feel" fast but really, not so much. 

I forgot to mention..  Racing I usually keep 4-6 guys on the rail upwind, makes a big difference.  With the family, I can usually talk both my wife and daughter (Sometimes the dog too) on the rail, it's more fun, helps us footing and blow buy the cruisers :-) 

-Francois 

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[Richard Servance]

Love these topics. The Polaris, the port tack water ingress tip (whether or not I close the through-hull... After the scream from the head, I calmly say to shut the valve under the sink. I look like quite the salty dog as they wonder how I knew...)

As to reefing, 15 knots has always been my point to think about reefing.  The challenge for me in Puget Sound has been finding accurate forecasts. The wind is so variable and the land interfaces affect it so much. 

I think my trip from Elliott Bay to Everett yesterday highlights this perfectly. I had all the southern wind when leaving the slip (and I didn't want it) and then when I was running... Well, you know how it goes.

Great day on the water and among my best commutes to work ever. Had a nice sail behind the genoa for about a third of the trip, motor sailed a third, and motored against a touch of current for the final push.

Warmly,

Richard

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[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

Found a video on reefing solo.  It's a smaller boat but has a few good tips that may help others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL_pAFJQ3ws

Chuck Scheaffer Resolute 1989 C&C 34R Annapolis

[Eric Baumes]

If you are single short or short handing and not racing, you can also heave to and reef. 

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On Feb 8, 2022, at 10:12 AM, CHARLES SCHEAFFER <csche...@comcast.net> wrote:



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[Ben Sutton]

Just to add to the options, I have single line reefing. If you are not familiar with the set up, one has a single line going through a low friction ring at the reef point  on the front of the sail. The line then runs through the boom to the aft reef point in the normal way. This means one is pulling in twice as much line. However, putting in a reef on your own  can be done easily from the cockpit. For this to work well it is important to make sure the reef point at the front is a bit above its intended height prior to tightening up the reefing line because the front tightens up before the rear. If it is pulled right to the boom the line will jam at the friction ring.

In my experience this works very well. The only downside is that the reef is a little cumbersome to shake out. 

My experience with reefing and wind speeds is similar to others. However, it rather depends if your are racing or cruising. My reef set up has three possible reef points evenly space between the boom and just above the lower spreader. In 20-23knts apparent upwind with a 100% jib fully deployed I used the middle reef (2 reefs) in a race last year. This showed the boat in its best possible light as it easily outperformed every other boat in our local fleet on the upwind leg (and not because of our superior skill!).

Reef set up shown below-  blue line at second reef.

I would be interested to know how other people have their reefs set up.

Ben Sutton

Evangeline C&C 34+ 1990 BC Canada.

On Feb 8, 2022, at 7:52 AM, Eric Baumes <eric....@gmail.com> wrote:

If you are single short or short handing and not racing, you can also heave to and reef. 

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[bigleyre]

We race in Puget Sound all winter and reef sometime over 30 mile races, more often than not. If one is interested in VMG, we watch weather helm, heel, and mainsail behavior. With a flat main and flat water, we may not reef in 18 knots.  In rough water, or with a baggy main, one may need to reef at 12 knots. 

If when you first think about reefing,  do it. Reefing keeps you going fast, and easy on the boat and crew.

It only takes less than a minute if the cunningham is at the target reef point. Less time to shake a reef out.

Richard Bigley 

S/v Jolly Rumbalow 

C&C 34+

Olympia Wa

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[Francois Rivard]

Yes, 

Good points on the one line / "Remote" reefing.  I've often thought about using my Cunningham line to use as the control for the forward side of the reef.  We don't reef that  often so I never got around to trying it. 

-Francois

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[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

I liked how the video showed the guy using a bungi to hold the reefing cringle in the reef hook while he goes back to tension the halyard.  I sometimes use the cunningham purchase and hook it into the reef cringle to help pull down the sail.  I think I'll add a bunji for this coming season.

You are so right Richard.  Excessive Angle of Heel and/or Excessive Rudder Angle, are good indicators of when to reef.  Might as well reef when you have the traveller set to leeward and you have to ease the main sheet so far, only the battens are driving, it's really past time then.

Chuck S

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[Jack Huttner]

I installed a cam cleat on the mast, about knee high. This allows me to jump the main halyard (now dyneema) and cleat it while i go back to the cockpit to winch it up tight. Same goes for setting the reef luff cringle. Do have to be careful w the halyard slack otherwise it can be a bit of a tangle. 

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Regards,

Jack

585-530-9521

[Jim Morse]

Hello!  I’m Jim Morse and I’m new to this group.  I sail Tinkertoy, a 34+ with her original WK. 

 

I don’t have much to add to this conversation, but thought I’d at least comment.

Like Jack, my first week with a 34+ was filled with lots of wind.  In the first 4 days, small craft advisories never lifted, but I was out anyways, on my way home.  End of season, yes I had a small headsail up, a 105 on Tinkertoy.  Someone will lecture me on going out in a SC but the 2 worst days were ones with no SC up.

 

What I discovered is with a small headsail up, the main is nearly always the first thing to reef.  Upwind or down.  In winds 20-ish true, the boat moves and handles way better with a second reef and full jib than with a single reef and a reefed jib.

 

It was similar at 15 knots; the boat wanted a single reef main rather than a partially furled headsail.  She’s quicker to turn, and a bit faster.

 

Of course, with limited crew, and times when things changed rapidly, sometimes we had to do what was easiest, and not what the boat wanted (of course it’s easier to furl a head sail than reef the main, and a ton more easy to do that than shake out the first reef and go to the second, and there is a story here for another time).

 

What I have no sense of, is if I’m flying a 155 and full main, and the wind is coming up, what the boat wants first.

 

I am stepping up from a C&C 30 mkii, and on that boat, you are way better off flying a full 155 with a reefed main.  Both upwind and down.  Beyond that, and it’s usually a smaller head sail (unless DW) and then the second reef.

 

My main sailing area is Lake Erie.  Summer means generally 5-10 here so I’ll be using that 155.

 

And thank you for this community!

 

Jim Morse

Tinkertoy

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[Harvey Hauschildt]

Up until two years ago, my go-to Sail was a 150. If the wind comes up above 15 knots you have an excellent chance of rounding up or some may say broaching. Once the 150 takes charge, the only way I have found to get it in is to get your furling line around a winch and time releasing the loaded winch while grinding on the winch that has your furling line ready to go. 

This only happened to me once and I had two experienced sailors onboard. We went around twice before I solved the problem. We did try Pinching but the 150 would not give up the air. Since that time, my favorite sail is a 110. 

This situation is very unsettling and will cause a copious amount of trouser chilli for Skipper and Crew.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 9, 2022, at 4:54 PM, Jim Morse <jimmo...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Harvey Hauschildt]

After reliving that experience while writing about it, I think a few details should be added. We left the marina in 10 knots of wind and by the time we shook out the sails, the wind was gusting 17 to 21 knots.  Having sailed with my two crew for over 25 years in multiple Oceans, none of us considered we were being Stupid. 

Some of the most exciting sails I have had were under the 150 with a steady 15 knots of wind. I gave you a horror story that was not exaggerating what happened. Just be careful not to overpower. Our boats are not tender but you can stress them⚓️

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 9, 2022, at 5:19 PM, Harvey Hauschildt <Hausc...@msn.com> wrote:

 Up until two years ago, my go-to Sail was a 150. If the wind comes up above 15 knots you have an excellent chance of rounding up or some may say broaching. Once the 150 takes charge, the only way I have found to get it in is to get your furling line around a winch and time releasing the loaded winch while grinding on the winch that has your furling line ready to go. 

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[Jack Huttner]

Yes, agreed. After dealing with the furling line across the cockpit to the lazy winch, I installed a rope clutch for the furler to manage this challenge.  

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Regards,

Jack

585-530-9521

[Jack Huttner]

To manage the problem Harvey described, I installed a rope clutch on the furling line so I can take it off the windward winch after furling. 

On Wed, Feb 9, 2022 at 8:48 PM Harvey Hauschildt <hausc...@msn.com> wrote:

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Regards,

Jack

585-530-9521

[Francois Rivard]

" Both upwind and down"  

We don't reef nothin' downwind well into the 20's.  The boat doesn't care.  Remember:  If it's blowing 20 and you're doing 7-8 knots then your sails are actually only seeing 12-13 knots and they're sheeted really loose.  

-Francois

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[Francois Rivard]

One more..  On the reefing downwind. 

We fly our big 'ol spinnaker in 20+ , no sweat as long as you mind the business at the wheel and have a decent crew.  It's all about keeping the apparent wind in check. 

Francois

[Steve Wilson]

Hey one additional item for this topic.  What is the fastest you ever got your boat going!   I’ll have to look at my records but it seems I have been over 10 knots 

 

Steven R. Wilson, CPCU

President

 

Alpena Agency Inc.

102 S. Third Ave

Alpena, Michigan 49707

 

989 354 2175  Business

989 657 4927 Cell

989 354 8974  Fax

 

On Feb 9, 2022, at 8:48 PM, Harvey Hauschildt <hausc...@msn.com> wrote:

 After reliving that experience while writing about it, I think a few details should be added. We left the marina in 10 knots of wind and by the time we shook out the sails, the wind was gusting 17 to 21 knots.  Having sailed with my two crew for over 25 years in multiple Oceans, none of us considered we were being Stupid. 

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[Francois Rivard]

We've seen over 9 knots GPS validated quite a few times. Those were short bursts.  We've seen sustained 8.3 - 8.5 / 8.8 no problem.   That's straight-on boat speed, no current or wave surfing as we're on a smallish lake with short chop and no current or tide.  Those speeds were in pretty reasonable winds, less than 30. 

-Francois

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[Harvey Hauschildt]

Jack, 

I just slapped my forehead for not thinking of this solution.  Thanks for the heads up!

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[Francois Rivard]

"get your furling line around a winch" 

Extremely bad idea.  You should never put a furling line on a winch.  Why?  If there's anything blocking / keeping the head from swiveling you end-up with twisted / destroyed foils.  A $3,500 + problem on our boats.  

Just point the boat into the wind and furl.  If racing, trade pointing for speed and furl on the next tack.  

-Francois

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[CHARLES SCHEAFFER]

I gotta agree with Francois, and warn not to use a winch to furl a genoa.  You shouldn't need a winch.  You need to unload the genoa before furling, and it doesn't take much.  Just turn briefly into the wind, ease the sheet and pull the furing line by hand and she will roll up. 

Chuck S

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[Harvey Hauschildt]

When the wind takes hold of the genoa, there is no time to for pinching or heading up. If you wait for that, you're on the way to rounding up.  I don't recommend this as your first strategy, but when all else fails, you do what must be done to get the boat under control.  I appreciate the warning about damaging the head foil, but a torn genoa or hurt crew could be the alternative.  Insurance will cover the head foil, but after that, it's up to you.

Having been through this experience once, I reef early and pay much more attention to gusty conditions. One needs to keep a bunch of tools in their head for unexpected problems.  Sailors tend to have more than others.

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[Francois Rivard]

It will want to round up only if you're over trimmed. Dump the sheet, head up, furl. 

BTW, So what if it rounds up? At least now you're pointed in the wind..

-François 

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[Anthony Aylward]

What is that wooden auxiliary mast you have on your boat?  A back up?

Anthony

Scrambler

1979 C&C 34

Long Beach MD

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Anthony Aylward
5912 Munson Court
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[Ben Sutton]



Nice though.. but obviously my neighbour on the dock. He has a classic wooden boat called a West Solent 1930’s vintage from Britain.

On Feb 11, 2022, at 1:55 PM, Anthony Aylward <a.h.a...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Anthony Aylward]

wow - my CnC is from 79 - its a vintage tank

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