Can cyclists run red right arrow when facing WALK?

[Serge Issakov]

Now that cyclists can go on WALK, a friend has asked about a right turn from southbound coast Highway 101 onto D St in Encinitas when facing simultaneous WALK and red right arrow.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/1gFPwQeuz5nwkxuZA?g_st=ic

We know we can go straight on WALK despite the red (yielding to pedestrians of course). Can we go right on WALK despite the red right arrow?

Note this intersection has “X” crosswalks and a phase with simultaneous round red (and no right turn red arrows) and WALK in all directions. 

Serge

[Bill SELLIN]

Love those details that come up after a BAdvocate creates a ‘bicycle friendly’ law!

If there is a no right on red sign I am sure you need to wait until the light changes, regardless of walk signal.

You CAN go straight or cut diagonally to the far corner of the ‘X’ or use it as a direct box-turn I would think…

Bill Sellin

714 943-3678

wa...@sellin.com

"Most of the World 

      is either Downhill or Flat...

On Mar 7, 2024, at 11:18 AM, Serge Issakov <serge....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[John Eldon]

I do not understand your distinction, Bill, because any of these maneuvers involves potential conflict with one or more pedestrians. 

John E.

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/caboforum/43077DD8-9444-47F1-B9B5-899D5D6B6BED%40sellin.com

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[Bill SELLIN]

You are correct - proceeding across a crosswalk that has “walk” from a travel lane with a red is only allowed when turning right AFTER any pedestrians have cleared their “walk”, never straight or turning left against the red…

Bill Sellin

714 943-3678

wa...@sellin.com

"Most of the World 

      is either Downhill or Flat...

On Mar 7, 2024, at 12:58 PM, John Eldon <j.e...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:



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[Serge Issakov]

I agree with John. 

I’m sure they failed to consider this scenario in writing the legislation, but the spirit and intent are clear. Because bikes are orders of magnitude less dangerous than cars to pedestrians, and because society seeks to encourage bicycling, bikes are allowed to run reds when there is no crossing conflict with cars (i.e. when facing a WALK), as long as they yield to pedestrians. 

I don’t see why this reasoning (like it or not) doesn’t apply equally to red right arrows when facing a WALK. 

Serge

[Jim Baross]

I don't think so...

AB 1909

"(2) Existing law requires a vehicle at an intersection controlled by a traffic control signal, or traffic light, to stop or proceed as directed by the signal. Existing law makes these provisions applicable to pedestrians and bicycles, as specified. Under existing law, a pedestrian facing a solid red traffic control signal may enter the intersection if directed to do so by a pedestrian control signal displaying “WALK” or an approved “walking person” symbol. This bill would, commencing January 1, 2024, extend this authorization to cross the intersection to a bicycle, unless otherwise directed by a bicycle control signal."

I understand the law and courteous safe practices to that bicyclists may proceed "as directed by the signal" in the directions allowed for pedestrians during a Walk signal; corner to closest corner and, when  allowed diagonally. Pedsignals do not direct peds or bicyclists to perform right turns on a Walk signal. 

Jim Baross

Board Member, League of American Bicyclists

President, Calif. Assoc. of Bicycling Organizations

Board Member, San Diego County Bicycle Coalition

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03/07/24, 02:00:44 PM

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[John Eldon]

Pretty subtle distinction. A cyclist's right turn can be regarded as proceeding straight with the walk / against the red, then pivoting and completing a perpendicular movement with the walk / against the red.

John E

[Jim Baross]

A similar question occurred while Clinton and I talked with a CHP rep. I asked if on a Red signal with a Green Walk signal could a bicyclist proceed but make a left turn. The answer was No, not unless the intersection signals were offering a "pedestrian scramble"/"Barnes Dance". It seems that bicyclists could only proceed in the direction that peds were to take. A Right turn isn't one of the ped directions.

BUT, if a right turn on red was allowed ....

Jim Baross

Board Member, League of American Bicyclists

President, Calif. Assoc. of Bicycling Organizations

Board Member, San Diego County Bicycle Coalition

03/07/24, 02:39:35 PM

[Serge Issakov]

Jim,

Yes, you present the obvious literal interpretation of the law, but I continue to contend it’s written that way because the situation I described was not considered. Not because it was considered and explicitly decided that in that case cyclists must wait for the red right arrow to go out before turning right. 

“…the operator of a bicycle facing a pedestrian control signal displaying a “WALK” or approved “Walking Person” symbol may proceed across the roadway in the direction of the signal”

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=21456.&lawCode=VEH

Besides, like John,  I contend that entering an intersection from the north and exiting it to the west is still consistent with “proceed across the roadway in the direction of the (WALK) signal”, it’s just that once in the intersection they then proceed to turn right. After all, “proceed” literally means “begin a course of action”.  To proceed to do X doesn’t mean you have to complete doing X.  

Same reasoning for turning left. If you are facing a WALK you may proceed across the roadway, but once in the intersection I see no prohibition against turning left as well as well as right (or U for that matter), so long as you yield to other traffic  in the intersection. 

Asking a CHP officer isn’t necessarily authoritative. They’re the ones who think 21202 prohibits two abreast riding…

Serge

[Jim Baross]

Tell it to the judge.

Jim Baross

Board Member, League of American Bicyclists

President, Calif. Assoc. of Bicycling Organizations

Board Member, San Diego County Bicycle Coalition

Sender notified by Mailtrack

03/07/24, 03:49:24 PM

[Alan Wachtel]

Vehicle Code §21456 reads in part: "Except as otherwise directed by a bicycle control signal described in Section 21456.3, the operator of a bicycle facing a pedestrian control signal displaying a 'WALK' or approved 'Walking Person' symbol may proceed across the roadway in the direction of the signal, but shall yield the right-of-way to any vehicles or pedestrians lawfully within the intersection."

This language isn't as clear as I'd like, but I take it to mean that bicyclists may proceed straight across the street on the WALK indication; left turns would not be included. At least that's the interpretation at an ordinary perpendicular crosswalk. And it could probably be stretched to include turning right, even on a red arrow, since that turn begins by entering the intersection.

But at a pedestrian scramble like this one? I'm sure no one ever thought about it. Can bicyclists make left turns starting from the right side of the street? What if two of them want to do that at right angles? Can they proceed along the diagonal crosswalk to make the turn--and again, what if two of them want to do it at once?

But I'll bet all this was already happening anyway before the law went into effect.

~ Alan

[William Sellin]

Here’s the answer - see big NO RIGHT TURN light that comes on when crosswalk is on WALK: That should stop all street traffic during the scramble phase with peds all over the streets… I would expect getting a ticket for turning right on my bicycle in this situation, even if crosswalk says WALK

“Of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt.” – John Muir

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[Serge Issakov]

Yes, but in the same pic there is a big round red DO NOT GO signal which "should stop all street traffic during the scramble phase with peds all over the streets…", except it doesn't stop bicycle traffic from going straight across the scramble. 

So why should the big NO RIGHT TURN stop bicyclists from turning right?

Serge

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[Serge Issakov]

I just sent the following suggestion/request to the Encinitas traffic engineer.

Serge

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Hi Abe,

On Southbound 101 entering downtown there is a nice scramble intersection at D which includes a large NO RIGHT TURN red arrow during the scramble phase.

However, with the new law that allows bicyclists to proceed when they have a red light as long as they are also facing a WALK,  there is some question as to whether bicyclists can turn right against the NO RIGHT TURN red arrow when facing a WALK.

Nobody seems to know whether the law allows it. Consensus is that this situation was probably not considered when the wording was scribed. A strict literal interpretation is that the law only allows bicyclists to "proceed across the intersection" on red (when facing WALK), not turn right against a red arrow.  Another interpretation follows the spirit of the law. Allowing cyclists to go straight on red but not turn right is just silly.

Now, what is clear is if there are bike specific signals then bicyclists must adhere to those.  A bicycle specific green right arrow during the scramble phase would be a big help here...

One of these would be great:

https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ia16/ia16attachment.pdf

I know, I know.  It's only money.

Serge

[John Eldon]

Why not a simple sign saying "No Right On Red, Bicycles Excepted"?

John E.

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