Devanagari question about r followed by two consonants

[Shashi Joshi]

Namaste VidvatjanAH,

In devanagari mUrdhni is written as मूर्ध्नि where the r is considered after dh in the way it is written.

If one were to write a word (which I can't think of any), where r is followed two consonants, e.g. mUdhrni,  how would it be written?

Or, when r is on top of the akShara, or saMyuktAkShara, we always pronounce the r before the saMyuktAkShara.

Q1. How would mUdhrni be written in devanagari?

Q2. Are there any such valid words where r is followed by two consonants?

Dhanyavada,
Shashi

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Is this about कर्ता वृत्र चित्र kind of situations or only about clusters samyuktaaksharas with three consonants ? 

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[Shashi Joshi]

It is purely about how to read the script, or write if 'r' is followed by two consonants.

How does a beginner of devanagari know how to read - मूर्ध्नि 

Is it mUrdhni or mUdhrni (assuming the person has never heard the word) ?

This is not a trick question at all :) a sincere question.

And also, if there are any real meaningful words that have 'r' followed by two consonants.

Thanks,

~ Shashi

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[K S Kannan]

मूध्र्नि

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Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[Radhakrishna Warrier]

Interesting question.  I believe the answer is that if the repha symbol is placed above any letter, including a conjunct letter, the repha should be pronounced first. If we write अर्घ्य  the 'r' should be pronounced before the conjunct letter ghya. On the other hand if we want to write ayrgha in Devanagari, we will have to write it as अय्र्घ or as अय् र्घ .

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To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Devanagari question about r followed by two consonants

 

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[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

यदु॒परि॑ रकारचि॒ह्नं लि॒ख्यते॒ तेन॑ संयुक्ताक्ष॒राणा॒मपि॒ प्रागे॒व र॑का॒रो ज्ञा॑त॒व्यः॑। अतः॑। मू॒र्ध्नि = mūrdhní.

मध्ये॑ श्रू॒यमा॑णो रका॒रो नि॑म्नचि॒ह्नेनै॒व लि॑ख्यते। यथा॑ कण्णमहोद॒येन॑ दर्शि॒तः। यथा॑ च॒ पित्र्य॒मित्यत्र॑। (=pítryam)

[Shashi Joshi]

I think this would be read as mUdhnri, not mUdhrni

Thanks,

~ Shashi

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 8:09 AM K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:

मूध्र्नि

[Nityanand Misra]

On Saturday, 3 July, 2021 at 7:59:43 am UTC+5:30 Shashi wrote:

This is not a trick question at all :) a sincere question.

And also, if there are any real meaningful words that have 'r' followed by two consonants.

There are many such words. In fact, here is one with r followed by four consonants: कार्त्स्न्य (kārtsnya). 

[Shashi Joshi]

अय् र्घ 

So, one has to use the previous half consonant with the halant mark, it can't be saMyuktAkShara.

I thought so too, but wondered if any other conventions were there.

Thanks,

~ Shashi

[Shashi Joshi]

Dhanyavada, for this example.

This works only because 'tra' already has a saMyuktAkShara.

So, I didn't state the question correctly.

Attempt at framing the Q better:

rXYa 

- where XY are consonants

- they may or may not have a saMyuktAkShara form

- but two consonants (or even more), it is understood that 'r' will go on top of the saMyuktAkShara OR to say, if 'r' is on top of a set of consonants (whether they form a single saMyuktAkShara or not र्ध्नि = rdhni र्ध्व = rdhva ) - it is understood that 'r' comes before the entire set of consecutive consonants.

र् ध् न् इ = र्ध्नि dhna is written as conjugate, 

र् ध् व् अ = र्ध्व dhva is not written saMyukta, it is dh and va

अ प् र् न् अ = अप्र्न  - Unicode algo gives this, but this is not necessarily the convention.

Thanks,

~ Shashi

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 8:16 AM उज्ज्वल राजपूत <ujjwal....@gmail.com> wrote:

यदु॒परि॑ रकारचि॒ह्नं लि॒ख्यते॒ तेन॑ संयुक्ताक्ष॒राणा॒मपि॒ प्रागे॒व र॑का॒रो ज्ञा॑त॒व्यः॑। अतः॑। मू॒र्ध्नि = mūrdhní.

मध्ये॑ श्रू॒यमा॑णो रका॒रो नि॑म्नचि॒ह्नेनै॒व लि॑ख्यते। यथा॑ कण्णमहोद॒येन॑ दर्शि॒तः। यथा॑ च॒ पित्र्य॒मित्यत्र॑। (=pítryam)

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[Shashi Joshi]

Misraji,

Sorry for my incorrect wording.

I do know r followed by many consonants is indeed there.

What I meant was XrYZa, that is, a consonant string where 'r' is NOT the first one, but in between, maybe second.

How would that be written?

Or is there a linguistic reason for 'r' to always be at the front of the consonant group, wherever it occurs?

Thanks,

~ Shashi

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[K S Kannan]

अग्र्य

प्राग्र्य

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[K S Kannan]

पित्र्य

[K S Kannan]

औग्र्य

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

The रेफ on the head is pronounced first  -- मूर्ध्नि -- अर्घ्य ।

पि - त् -र् - य -- पित्र्य 

The oroginal question was not so clear . But we can understand the problem .

धन्यो’स्मि

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit (Retd)

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Ph:09866110741

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

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[Shashi Joshi]

Namaste AchArya.

Here is a somewhat better attempt at the original question:

What I meant was XrYZa, that is, a consonant string where 'r' is NOT the first one, but in between, maybe second.
How would that be written?

Or is there a linguistic reason for 'r' to always be at the front of the consonant group, wherever it occurs?

rXYa
- where XY are consonants
- they may or may not have a saMyuktAkShara form

- if 'r' is on top of a set of consonants (whether they form a single saMyuktAkShara or not र्ध्नि = rdhni र्ध्व = rdhva ) - it is understood that 'r' comes before the entire set of consecutive consonants. Is this the rule always ? That if 'r' on top, then it must be before the entire consonant cluster?

र् ध् न् इ = र्ध्नि dhni is written as conjugate,
र् ध् व् अ = र्ध्व dhva is not written saMyukta, it is dh and va, and still it is understood that 'r' goes before 'dh' also, not between 'dh' and 'va'.

अ प् र् ग् म् अ = अप्र्ग्म  - Unicode algo gives this, but this is not necessarily the convention. In this case, the Unicode font did not put the 'r' on top (this may be its limitation), but how would it be written by hand, this same way, or p+g+ma with 'r' on top of 'ma' ?

Thanks,

~ Shashi

[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

What I meant was XrYZa, that is, a consonant string where 'r' is NOT the first one, but in between, maybe second.

How would that be written?

कोशे॑षु॒ न दृ॑श्यते॒ कोऽपि॒ तद्वि॑धः॒ शब्दः॑। किन्तु तस्या॑शक्य॒त्वस्य॑ व्याकरण॒द्वारा॑ प्र॒माण॒मपे॑क्ष्यते।

No such word occurs in the dictionaries. Yet, a formal proof using Vyākáraṇa is welcome, if anyone can provide.

 

Or is there a linguistic reason for 'r' to always be at the front of the consonant group, wherever it occurs?

अस॑त्यमे॒वेदम्। अ॒ग्र्या॑ग्रैः॒ शब्दैः॑ स्प॒ष्टम्। ई॒दृशः॑ स॒प्तत्रिं॑श॒त्त्रीणि॑ श॒तानि॑ च॒ शब्दा॑ दृश्यन्ते मोनियर्विलियङ्को॒शे। किञ्चा॒यं वि॑शे॒षः-। तेषां॒ द्र्व॑न्नशेषाणां रका॒राद्य॑का॒र ए॒वास्ति॑। कुत्रापि॒ तस्मा॑द्यका॒रादन्ते॑ स्थि॒त इ॑ग्व॒र्णो नास्ति॑। अतः॒ संहि॑तायां व्यञ्जनाग॒मो नैव भ॑वेत्।

This has already been shown to be incorrect by words like agryà. The Monier-Williams Dictionary lists 337 such words. All those, except drvànna (used for Agní  in Ṛgveda), have the consonant y after r. None of them have a final vowel other than a or ā after that y. So no possibility of a new consonant coming up with sandhi.

[K S Kannan]

Dear Shashi Joshi,

अग्र्य

प्राग्र्य

पित्र्य

औग्र्य

- All the four examples I gave answered your requirements.

Your query is still not over, apparently.

Are you stuck in any specific problem, or is it just a hypothetical question

springing out of mere curiosity, or what?

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[Shashi Joshi]

Kannan ji,

Thank you for your patience, so far :)

Two reasons for my continued posts:

1. Due to an error in formulation of my original Q, it caused a bit of confusion. (See below for rephrased Q)

2. What we see in unicode when writing 'agrya' (as you posted in the mail), I was not sure if it was as per Unicode's own algorithm, or is it how it would be written, say when written by hand before computer fonts/printing press were created (both of which are limited by the number of letters they have).

I checked the word agrya in print (not computer), and found this in SKDrum

Again, not sure if this is also due to the limited letters in the printing press arsenal.

So, for clarity, here is the question rephrased.

If  one sees a consecutive sequence of consonants, and a final 'r' on top, is it always a rule/convention that that 'r' on top is to be considered at the front of the sequence only?

For example, if one sees the following devanagari construct:

 पर्क्च्त = ??

(1) प् अ क् च् र् त  ? 

(2) प् अ क् र् च् त ?

(3) प् अ र् क् च् त ? 

Wherever a new ligature is formed of two/three consonants, it is much easier, since the ligature is treated as one letter. The question becomes more relevant when ligature doesn't exist, as in the above synthetic word.

Thanks,

~ Shashi

[K S Kannan]

In Kannada too, the r which occurs the first in pronunciation

is placed the last in the script after a procession of consonants.

ಅಖರ್ವೋ ಗರ್ವಃ; ಭರ್ತ್ರೇ, ದೌರ್ಹೃದ,

(nir + r̥ti = ನಿರೃತಿ seems an exception?!)

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[Narayan Prasad]

मूध्र्नि

कार्त्स्न्य (given more than required)

Regards

Narayan Prasad

[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

If  one sees a consecutive sequence of consonants, and a final 'r' on top, is it always a rule/convention that that 'r' on top is to be considered at the front of the sequence only?

Yes, it is a rule.

 

For example, if one sees the following devanagari construct:

 पर्क्च्त = ??

(1) प् अ क् च् र् त  ? 

(2) प् अ क् र् च् त ?

(3) प् अ र् क् च् त ? 

 

Answer: (3)

[Shashi Joshi]

Thank you for confirming.

I knew it from usage, but didn't know if it was an explicit rule, or just an understood convention.

Thanks,

~ Shashi

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[K S Kannan]

A time-honoured convention

is equivalent to a rule/norm.

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[Shashi Joshi]

Indeed.

Thanks,
Shashi

[Sivasenani Nori]

Shashi ji

Please consider the word दारिद्र्यम्  It has the consonants in the order you desire. 

Just adding a valid example to illustrate what  Vidvans already stated. 

Regards 

Senani 

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[Shashi Joshi]

Dhanyavada.

Thanks,
Shashi

[K S Kannan]

After दारिद्र्य, I must gift you a "स्वर्द्रु"

(which has r anterior and r posterior),

a veritable compensation!

On Sun, Jul 4, 2021 at 4:54 PM Shashi Joshi <shas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dhanyavada.

Thanks,
Shashi

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[Amba Kulkarni]

Namaste.

The conjuncts in Devanagari are written either from left to right or from the top to bottom and are pronounced in the same sequence.

The writing conventions for conjuncts with 'र्"  as one var.na are as follows:

a) If it is the first var.na of the conjunct, it is written on the top of the following var.na(s)

b) If it follows any other var.na then it has two different shapes as in क्र & ट्र  depending on whether the previous var.na has a vertical line or not.

-- Amba Kulkarni

On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 at 06:51, Shashi Joshi <shas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste VidvatjanAH,

In devanagari mUrdhni is written as मूर्ध्नि where the r is considered after dh in the way it is written.

If one were to write a word (which I can't think of any), where r is followed two consonants, e.g. mUdhrni,  how would it be written?

Or, when r is on top of the akShara, or saMyuktAkShara, we always pronounce the r before the saMyuktAkShara.

Q1. How would mUdhrni be written in devanagari?

Q2. Are there any such valid words where r is followed by two consonants?

Dhanyavada,
Shashi

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[Raghavendra]

Greetings of the day,

The Anglo-Saxon script provides felicity of writing Sānskrit words as spoken, (the sequence of the speech sound follows without having to write them left to right or from the top to bottom.   

 

मूर्ध्नि = Mūrdhni 

दारिद्र्यम् = Dāridryam 

कार्त्स्न्य = Kārtsnya 

 

This is quite interesting; the Anglo-Saxon script which does not belong here, - but, it provides felicity at writing Sānskrit.

Thank you and Best regards,
========================

From: Amba Kulkarni <ambap...@gmail.com>

Sent: Sun, 04 Jul 2021 17:12:34
To: bvparishat <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Devanagari question about r followed by two consonants
 

Namaste.

 

 

The conjuncts in Devanagari are written either from left to right or from the top to bottom and are pronounced in the same sequence.

 

The writing conventions for conjuncts with 'र्"  as one var.na are as follows:

 

a) If it is the first var.na of the conjunct, it is written on the top of the following var.na(s)

b) If it follows any other var.na then it has two different shapes as in क्र & ट्र  depending on whether the previous var.na has a vertical line or not.

 

-- Amba Kulkarni

 

 

 

On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 at 06:51, Shashi Joshi <shas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste VidvatjanAH,

In devanagari mUrdhni is written as मूर्ध्नि where the r is considered after dh in the way it is written.

 

If one were to write a word (which I can't think of any), where r is followed two consonants, e.g. mUdhrni,  how would it be written?

Or, when r is on top of the akShara, or saMyuktAkShara, we always pronounce the r before the saMyuktAkShara.

 

Q1. How would mUdhrni be written in devanagari?

 

Q2. Are there any such valid words where r is followed by two consonants?

 

Dhanyavada,
Shashi

 

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आ नो भद्रा: क्रतवो यन्तु विश्वत: ll
Let noble thoughts come to us from every side.
- Rig Veda, I-89-i.

 

Professor
Department of Sanskrit Studies
University of Hyderabad

Prof. C.R. Rao Road 

Hyderabad-500 046

(91) 040 23133802(off)

 

http://scl.samsaadhanii.in

http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/scl

http://tdil-dc.in/san/

http://sanskrit.uohyd.ac.in/faculty/amba

 

 

 

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[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

1. Interesting that ‘Anglo-saxon’ script felicity is being invoked in to the deliberation here.

    The  felicity point is ‘ Writing Sanskrit as spoken’ ( ukta- lekhana) = True –Scripting of Voice.  

 

2. Anglo-Saxon script was not designed as ‘ABUGIDA’ script. Anglo-Saxon has limited utility in serving the ‘True scripting’ needs  of ‘Brahmi’ Devanagari.

 

    Brahmi Devanagari design provides True scripting with three layers:  (i) the base akshara (svara- Vyanjana) (ii)  akshara-samyojana (  Gunita- Samyukta- abugida

    feature) (iii) akshara- svara- ankana ( tonal –diacritic markers).  

 

3. Some links placed below may help to explore more on this issue .  The summary pointer is the ‘Compromises accommodated in Typography and Fonts  aiming for providing a   digital tool for True scripting of Brahmi Samskruth Phonemes’ .   

 

True Phonetic/ Phonemic fonts needed for  native needs of  Samskrutham – Documents are yet to be seen on the horizon of Digital Font-arts, even at concept –level.

What seems to the trend is ‘ overlay of Brahmi on provided  salad of  IPA / Roman –Latin Character set.

 

Here below are some links on how ‘ Old English /anglo-saxon linguistics are explored in language teaching and Technology-standards.

 

Anglo-Saxon runes - Wikipedia  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_runes

 

Learning Old English: The Anglo-Saxons, and their alphabet | Liam's Language Journal (wordpress.com)  -   https://liamslanguagejournal.wordpress.com/2015/12/08/learning-old-english-the-anglo-saxons-and-their-alphabet/

 

Phonetic fonts - Bruce Hayes (ucla.edu) - https://linguistics.ucla.edu/people/hayes/Fonts/    ;

 

IPA Fonts | International Phonetic Association  ; https://www.internationalphoneticassociation.org/content/ipa-fonts   

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[Narendra Dutt Tiwari]

नमो नमः, 

Deonagri is read as it is written. We write from left to right and top to bottom. Same way we read from left to right and top to bottom. After pronouncing मू we pronounce the next letter on top that is र् then थ् then नि. माननीय चैतन्य महोदयः परिषद्यस्मिन् अस्ति। सः एतस्मिन् विषये प्रामाणिकः.

 

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[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

A connected question: What is the right way to display the ‘deergha-svara symbol’ in each language? How to decode ?

This leads to a deliberation:  ‘How are we able to read the same sounds from different brahmi scripting conventions ?

                                                      How to teach this in Digital Literacy to read visual text ? Adding accent in an indiscriminate way, would complicate the story !

See image below, generated from a standard word processor

 

 

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Shashi Joshi
Sent: 03 July 2021 09:05
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Devanagari question about r followed by two consonants

 

Misraji,

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CANu%2BFoA2iiix8xbvqTbXpf%3DvaXjFcRYUc9xeFw_n2raR9jqhOQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Dr. Yadu Moharir]

Dear List:

Just like to mention here that Dr BVK has a US Patent for his samsk^rita "KEY BOARD" that is independent of the Operating System.  Thus, it does not have to depend various gymnastics for creating graphic display of "FONT".

May be, one needs to start using our own "devanagari" script for correct display rather than ITRAN and other tools to achieve this.

May be Dr BVK will further elaborate on his Intellectual Property.

Dr Yadu

On Thursday, July 8, 2021, 2:21:38 AM MST, BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop) <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (sastr...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule | More info

Namaste

 

A connected question: What is the right way to display the ‘deergha-svara symbol’ in each language? How to decode ?

This leads to a deliberation:  ‘How are we able to read the same sounds from different brahmi scripting conventions ?

                                                      How to teach this in Digital Literacy to read visual text ? Adding accent in an indiscriminate way, would complicate the story !

See image below, generated from a standard word processor

 

 

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Shashi Joshi
Sent: 03 July 2021 09:05
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Devanagari question about r followed by two consonants

 

Misraji,

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CANu%2BFoA2iiix8xbvqTbXpf%3DvaXjFcRYUc9xeFw_n2raR9jqhOQ%40mail.gmail.com.

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[Soma Basu]

I know a wonderful word kaartsnya !

Soma Basu

On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 at 7:59 AM, Shashi Joshi <shas...@gmail.com> wrote:

It is purely about how to read the script, or write if 'r' is followed by two consonants.

How does a beginner of devanagari know how to read - मूर्ध्नि 

Is it mUrdhni or mUdhrni (assuming the person has never heard the word) ?

This is not a trick question at all :) a sincere question.

And also, if there are any real meaningful words that have 'r' followed by two consonants.

Thanks,

~ Shashi

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 7:33 AM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is this about कर्ता वृत्र चित्र kind of situations or only about clusters samyuktaaksharas with three consonants ? 

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 6:51 AM Shashi Joshi <shas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste VidvatjanAH,

In devanagari mUrdhni is written as मूर्ध्नि where the r is considered after dh in the way it is written.

If one were to write a word (which I can't think of any), where r is followed two consonants, e.g. mUdhrni,  how would it be written?

Or, when r is on top of the akShara, or saMyuktAkShara, we always pronounce the r before the saMyuktAkShara.

Q1. How would mUdhrni be written in devanagari?

Q2. Are there any such valid words where r is followed by two consonants?

Dhanyavada,
Shashi

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director, Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru

BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership

Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

 

 

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[Patanjali Veenakar]

मूध्न्री is written like this

On Sat, 3 Jul 2021, 08:47 Shashi Joshi, <shas...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think this would be read as mUdhnri, not mUdhrni

Thanks,

~ Shashi

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 8:09 AM K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:

मूध्र्नि

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[Narendra Dutt Tiwari]

Namaste ! 

The word कार्त्स्न्य is not the containing R after two smyukta consonants. The work कार्त्स्न्य contains following sounds (ध्वनि)  क् आ र् त् स् न् य् अ । It is therefore, not the appropriate word which was asked by Vidwan Shastri Ji.

With regards

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[Amba Kulkarni]

Namaste,

In Devanagari, we write the conjuncts in two ways - top to bottom and left to write. 

For example in ट्र, क्र, प्र, र्ध र्व etc. it is top to bottom, and in case of  क्व it is left to right.

र is always written in top to bottom. In case it is the first consonant in the conjunct, it would be written at the top, and otherwise in the bottom.

When more than 2 consonants are involved, we start with the top, then the consonants written below will be pronounced from left to right.

Thus in the case of मूर्ध्नि, it is first र्  then ध् followed by a न्.

-- Amba Kulkarni

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आ नो भद्रा: क्रतवो यन्तु विश्वत: ll
Let noble thoughts come to us from every side.
- Rig Veda, I-89-i.

Professor & Head

Department of Sanskrit Studies
University of Hyderabad

Prof. C.R. Rao Road 

Hyderabad-500 046

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[kenp]

हिन्दी व्याकरण: “र” के विभिन्न रूपhttps://sahityaduniya.com/%E0%A4%B0-%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%87-%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%82%E0%A4%AA/

https://bharatdiscovery.org/india/%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%A8_(%E0%A4%B0)#google_vignette