Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Looking for the source of this Pancharatra passage

[Raghavendra]

Good day,

Yes, the difference is a continual and uninterrupted state of being even in the liberated state. It is due to the stark difference in the intrinsic nature of जीवात्मा and परमात्मा. 

The पारतन्त्र्य, अपूर्णता, अल्पशक्ति, असर्वज्ञ, and उपजीवकत्व nature of जीवात्मा is irreducible or irrevocable. जीवात्मा is dependent on परमात्मा (उपजीव्य) for its being and becoming. जीवात्मा is eternal, but, he is said to have an origin, only and only in the sense of "acquisition of new traits of dependence" for its being and becoming. 

Auspicious nature viz. स्वतन्त्र, सर्वशक्त, सर्वज्ञ, पूर्ण abounds in परमात्मा in countless measure. 

The above 'difference' between them is स्वाभाविक.

Despite this stark स्वाभाविक-भेद, the individual soul is not excluded from परमात्मा as the latter indwells (अन्तर्यामि) in the former. 

This is how the "differential-difference" is advocated by Sri. Madhva. 

Coming to the text of the पञ्चरात्र quoted by भामतिकार, the commentators (कल्पतरुकार and परिमलकार) have not identified or discussed the source of the text in question. भामतिकार must have had his source to the original text for sure, but at this distance in time, one can only surmise. Experts in that field of study are the only source of hope.  

The overall sense of the text of the पञ्चरात्र quoted by भामतिकार appears to lend support to the view of भगवद्रामानुज who believes in साम्य in मुक्तावस्ठा.

Without an iota of doubt, it does lend support to Sri. Shankara going by the clear cut wordings - मुक्तस्य तु न भेदोऽस्ति भेदहेतोरभावतः  

The text has both senses of "differential-non-difference" (R) and "total-non-difference" (S) if one may say so,

But, when one reads the following भाष्य-वचन of भगवत्पाद-शंकर it appears to strike a concordant note with the concept of भेद in liberated state too,

जगदुत्पत्त्यादिव्यापारं वर्जयित्वा अन्यत् अणिमाद्यात्मकमैश्वर्यं मुक्तानां भवितुमर्हति, जगद्व्यापारस्तु नित्यसिद्धस्यैव ईश्वरस्य । कुतः ? तस्य तत्र प्रकृतत्वात् ; असन्निहितत्वाच्चेतरेषाम् ; पर एव हि ईश्वरो जगद्व्यापारेऽधिकृतः, तमेव प्रकृत्य उत्पत्त्याद्युपदेशात् , नित्यशब्दनिबन्धनत्वाच्च ; तदन्वेषणविजिज्ञासनपूर्वकं तु इतरेषामणिमाद्यैश्वर्यं श्रूयते ; तेनासन्निहितास्ते जगद्व्यापारे । समनस्कत्वादेव च एतेषामनैकमत्ये, कस्यचित्स्थित्यभिप्रायः कस्यचित्संहाराभिप्राय इत्येवं विरोधोऽपि कदाचित्स्यात्; अथ कस्यचित् सङ्कल्पमनु अन्यस्य सङ्कल्प इत्यविरोधः समर्थ्येत, ततः परमेश्वराकूततन्त्रत्वमेवेतरेषामिति व्यवतिष्ठते

The concept of difference is so beautifully couched in all its embellishments in these words, please help me understand if there is a different view of it,

Thank you and best regards,
++++++++++++++++++++


From: V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sat, 29 May 2021 23:03:55
To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Looking for the source of this Pancharatra passage
 

In the Bhamati for the Brahma sutra bhashya 1.4.21, Sri Vachaspati Misra cites a passage, a full shloka, as that of the PancharatrikaaH:

 

एतदुक्तं भवति - भविष्यन्तमभेदमुपादाय भेदकालेऽप्यभेद उक्तः । यथाहुः पाञ्चरात्रिकाः - “आमुक्तेर्भेद एव स्याज्जीवस्य च परस्य च । मुक्तस्य तु न भेदोऽस्ति भेदहेतोरभावतः” ॥ इति ।

 

The meaning of the verse is: The difference between the jivatma and Paramatma lasts only till mukti. In mukti, the jiva is non-different from Paramatma since the factor that caused the difference earlier is no longer there. 

 

Is such a bheda-abheda stance taken by the Pancharatra? From what appears on the face, both the Dvaita and Vishishtadvaita schools do not accept the above position. They are known to be followers of the Pancharatra. 

 

Any leads to the source text of this Pancharatra verse is welcome. 

 

Thanks and regards

subrahmanian.v 

 

 

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[V Subrahmanian]

On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 6:21 PM 'Raghavendra' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Good day,

Coming to the text of the पञ्चरात्र quoted by भामतिकार, the commentators (कल्पतरुकार and परिमलकार) have not identified or discussed the source of the text in question. भामतिकार must have had his source to the original text for sure, but at this distance in time, one can only surmise. Experts in that field of study are the only source of hope.  

Sri Jayatirtha, in the Nyayasudha, has cited this verse, (along with a shruti), without the 'Pancharatra' name: ''यावन्मोक्षं तु भेदः स्याज्जीवस्य परमस्य च । ततः परं न भेदोऽस्ति भेदहेतोरभावतः'' and says  इत्यादिश्रुतिस्मृतीनां  -   स्थानैक्यादिविषयत्वेन सावकाशत्वात् ।   

So, he too has identified it as a smriti.  His interpretation is: the mukta jiva dwells, etc, in the same region as the Paramatma.  

The overall sense of the text of the पञ्चरात्र quoted by भामतिकार appears to lend support to the view of भगवद्रामानुज who believes in साम्य in मुक्तावस्ठा.

Without an iota of doubt, it does lend support to Sri. Shankara going by the clear cut wordings - मुक्तस्य तु न भेदोऽस्ति भेदहेतोरभावतः  

The text has both senses of "differential-non-difference" (R) and "total-non-difference" (S) if one may say so,

But, when one reads the following भाष्य-वचन of भगवत्पाद-शंकर it appears to strike a concordant note with the concept of भेद in liberated state too,

जगदुत्पत्त्यादिव्यापारं वर्जयित्वा अन्यत् अणिमाद्यात्मकमैश्वर्यं मुक्तानां भवितुमर्हति, जगद्व्यापारस्तु नित्यसिद्धस्यैव ईश्वरस्य । कुतः ? तस्य तत्र प्रकृतत्वात् ; असन्निहितत्वाच्चेतरेषाम् ; पर एव हि ईश्वरो जगद्व्यापारेऽधिकृतः, तमेव प्रकृत्य उत्पत्त्याद्युपदेशात् , नित्यशब्दनिबन्धनत्वाच्च ; तदन्वेषणविजिज्ञासनपूर्वकं तु इतरेषामणिमाद्यैश्वर्यं श्रूयते ; तेनासन्निहितास्ते जगद्व्यापारे । समनस्कत्वादेव च एतेषामनैकमत्ये, कस्यचित्स्थित्यभिप्रायः कस्यचित्संहाराभिप्राय इत्येवं विरोधोऽपि कदाचित्स्यात्; अथ कस्यचित् सङ्कल्पमनु अन्यस्य सङ्कल्प इत्यविरोधः समर्थ्येत, ततः परमेश्वराकूततन्त्रत्वमेवेतरेषामिति व्यवतिष्ठते

The concept of difference is so beautifully couched in all its embellishments in these words, please help me understand if there is a different view of it,

In Advaita, the above bhashya you have cited  is about the saguna upasaka who has reached Brahmaloka and attained Jnana.  That loka, in Advaita, is subject to Mahapralaya, and at that time, the residents of that loka will attain ultimate mukti, never to return to samsara.  

regards

subrahmanian.v

[Harunaga Isaacson]

The verse can be found, with slight variants, in the Pāñcarātra Paramasaṃhitā, as verse 12.65. This

link should lead to the right page of a scan of the Baroda edition.  

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.408418/page/n137/mode/2up

[V Subrahmanian]

On Mon, May 31, 2021 at 2:11 AM Harunaga Isaacson <harunaga...@gmail.com> wrote:

The verse can be found, with slight variants, in the Pāñcarātra Paramasaṃhitā, as verse 12.65. This

link should lead to the right page of a scan of the Baroda edition.  

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.408418/page/n137/mode/2up

Thank you very much for the above link where I could see the verse and the entire book.  Your efforts are laudable indeed.

warm regards

subrahmanian.v  

[Raghavendra]

Thank you

regards,

Sent from RediffmailNG on Android

From: V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sun, 30 May 2021 20:07:07 GMT+0530
To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Looking for the source of this Pancharatra passage

On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 6:21 PM 'Raghavendra' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Good day,


Coming to the text of the पञ्चरात्र quoted by भामतिकार, the commentators (कल्पतरुकार and परिमलकार) have not identified or discussed the source of the text in question. भामतिकार must have had his source to the original text for sure, but at this distance in time, one can only surmise. Experts in that field of study are the only source of hope.  

Sri Jayatirtha, in the Nyayasudha, has cited this verse, (along with a shruti), without the 'Pancharatra' name: ''यावन्मोक्षं तु भेदः स्याज्जीवस्य परमस्य च । ततः परं न भेदोऽस्ति भेदहेतोरभावतः'' and says  इत्यादिश्रुतिस्मृतीनां  -   स्थानैक्यादिविषयत्वेन सावकाशत्वात् ।   

So, he too has identified it as a smriti.  His interpretation is: the mukta jiva dwells, etc, in the same region as the Paramatma.  

The overall sense of the text of the पञ्चरात्र quoted by भामतिकार appears to lend support to the view of भगवद्रामानुज who believes in साम्य in मुक्तावस्ठा.

Without an iota of doubt, it does lend support to Sri. Shankara going by the clear cut wordings - मुक्तस्य तु न भेदोऽस्ति भेदहेतोरभावतः  

The text has both senses of "differential-non-difference" (R) and "total-non-difference" (S) if one may say so,

But, when one reads the following भाष्य-वचन of भगवत्पाद-शंकर it appears to strike a concordant note with the concept of भेद in liberated state too,

जगदुत्पत्त्यादिव्यापारं वर्जयित्वा अन्यत् अणिमाद्यात्मकमैश्वर्यं मुक्तानां भवितुमर्हति, जगद्व्यापारस्तु नित्यसिद्धस्यैव ईश्वरस्य । कुतः ? तस्य तत्र प्रकृतत्वात् ; असन्निहितत्वाच्चेतरेषाम् ; पर एव हि ईश्वरो जगद्व्यापारेऽधिकृतः, तमेव प्रकृत्य उत्पत्त्याद्युपदेशात् , नित्यशब्दनिबन्धनत्वाच्च ; तदन्वेषणविजिज्ञासनपूर्वकं तु इतरेषामणिमाद्यैश्वर्यं श्रूयते ; तेनासन्निहितास्ते जगद्व्यापारे । समनस्कत्वादेव च एतेषामनैकमत्ये, कस्यचित्स्थित्यभिप्रायः कस्यचित्संहाराभिप्राय इत्येवं विरोधोऽपि कदाचित्स्यात्; अथ कस्यचित् सङ्कल्पमनु अन्यस्य सङ्कल्प इत्यविरोधः समर्थ्येत, ततः परमेश्वराकूततन्त्रत्वमेवेतरेषामिति व्यवतिष्ठते

The concept of difference is so beautifully couched in all its embellishments in these words, please help me understand if there is a different view of it,

In Advaita, the above bhashya you have cited  is about the saguna upasaka who has reached Brahmaloka and attained Jnana.  That loka, in Advaita, is subject to Mahapralaya, and at that time, the residents of that loka will attain ultimate mukti, never to return to samsara.  

regards

subrahmanian.v

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