Symposium on Jaati, Varna, and Caste
Founder
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Ramesh Rao
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Nagaraj Paturi
Looking forward to it. Could have represented everybody who contributed to the discussion on this important topic, in this mail list, thereby giving representation to all the diverse views that our group-members have on this topic.Jijith Nadumuri Ravi, Ex-Scientist ISRODharma Digital - 100 plus Metaverse Ready Devata Digital HologramsAncientVoice - 25K plus Wiki pages on Veda Itihāsa Purāṇas
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Ramesh Rao
Ramesh Rao
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Nagaraj Paturi
I was not able to join this since I was travelling. I am hoping there is will be video recordings of the proceedings available. Please let me know.Thanks,RaghuIn solitude the silence through which the atman speaks finally becomes audible.On 10-Apr-2023, at 6:12 PM, Ramesh Rao <ramesh...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Nagaraj Paturi
“ Prof MS Chaitra in his session just kept talking about how complex this whole sociocultural phenomenon is, especially while looked from the Western Frameworks, by giving many subjective opinions, and just stopped there without offering any value addition to the discourse, in the true style of some of the books of his Guru SN Balagangadhara”
The fact that you may not have been able to understand Chaitra’s presentation or its importance does not mean that it was composed of subjective opinions. Your lack of ability to grasp it should not be used as a pretext to make an ad hominem remark on him or Balagangadhara. Balagangadhara’s is the best available research programme on India. If you don’t appreciate that then it is not their fault.Best wishes,PrakashOn 18 Apr 2023, at 08:55, Jataayu <jata...@gmail.com> wrote:My FB post on this: https://www.facebook.com/jataayu.blore/posts/pfbid02gJnbgL5phzPWMfL2if3Z4TwswJF46W7XViYpoQVy5cGH1nRhbUkpkbrWhn3SxqddlSymposium on Jaati, Varna, Caste organized by INDICA was a good event with many thought-provoking and insightful presentations. I will share a few comments on some of the sessions. Complete video of all the sessions here: https://www.youtube.com/live/vQMOyEY9N4Q?feature=shareThe sessions were well moderated and contextualized by Nagaraj Paturi. "Ground reality of Jati, Book reality of Varna, Colonial, governmental reality of Caste", he summarized in his own talk that came towards the end. He proposed Jati studies as an academic category like 'Gender studies' and remarked that this phenomenon should be studied from *inside* by recording and documenting how the Jati participants view all these 3 realities on the ground. I cannot agree more.Sessions that focused on the *Present* and *contemporary* practical realities:'Caste in politics divides, but caste in business and economic sphere unites', said Prof. R Vaidyanathan in his 'Caste as the Social Capital' which was strongly anchored in the contemporary realities and the hard data that he had collected and analyzed as part of his book by the same name. The session by Prof Kanagaraj Easwaran was insightful in which he highlighted how the harmonious religious traditions enrich and provide the much needed 'Social Integration' on the ground in the Kongu region in an organic way, without even being aware of 'Social theory' conceived by the West while creating the discipline of Sociology to address the problems created by modernity and Industrial revolution. The thoughtful session on 'Machinevaad' by Halley Kalyan threw light on the problems of loss of livelihood and rural poverty of Jatis involved in some specific crafts, weaving and other occupations, contrasting that with the high pitch discourse on 'Manuvaad'. The session by Sumanaspati Reddy discussed the issues related to Scheduled Tribe communities of Telengana and Andhra.Prof MS Chaitra in his session just kept talking about how complex this whole sociocultural phenomenon is, especially while looked from the Western Frameworks, by giving many subjective opinions, and just stopped there without offering any value addition to the discourse, in the true style of some of the books of his Guru SN Balagangadhara
Sessions with a focus on the past, the theories on Varna, Jati concepts, religious scriptures etc. -The talk 'Varna: from Buddha to Vemana' by Srinivas Udumudi gave a good overview of the early evolution of the Varna concepts from the Vedas through Dharma Sutras through Buddhism and later in Smritis, and then again in the medieval era through Bhakti movement stages. "The harsh criticism against birth based Varna and the notions of ritualistic purity, and the question on 'who is the true Brahmana" continues in the same tone for 2000 years from Buddha to Vemana, in many spiritual masters", he points out in the end. An important point for Hindu society and Hindutva sociopolitical consolidation in the present times."Ritualistic dimension of Varna" (Nitin Shridhar) and "Jati-Varna based on violence and non-violence" (Sushumna Kannan) - both these sessions were different kinds of apologist polemics and speculative attempts to "justify" the scriptural injunctions related social exclusion (of Shudras) and Varna based privileges (of Brahmanas) etc. The polemics was too much skewed towards justifying the scriptures, rather than presenting an unbiased and historical perspective in context.There were some sessions on how the British Colonialism created the 'Caste' category that did not exist in the traditional Indian society. And some other sessions explaining how Kula-Jati-Varna was an adaptive, flexible social category originally but made into a rigid and fixed one now. This discourse has become popular and sort of "mainstream" now, thanks to the works of Dharmpal, Nicholas Dirks, and off late by Rajiv Malhotra.Overall, the symposium was good, containing multifaceted ideas. I hope INDICA will bring this in the form of a book, like an anthology of essays.Regards,Jtyu
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కృష్ణ చైతన్య
Nagaraj Paturi
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kenp
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Jatayu ji
I too am flummoxed by your remark about Chaitra ji’s input.
Apart from the point that Aparna has just made regarding Prof Balu’s theory, you yourself say that “There were some sessions on how the British Colonialism created the 'Caste' category that did not exist in the traditional Indian society.”
I am flummoxed because this point is very much a subset of Balu’s theory.
Like Aparna, I too find myself in the position where my understanding India, and by extension of myself and my culture to be facilitated in great measure by Prof Balu’s school.
Regards
Jay Jina
From: indica...@googlegroups.com <indica...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Aparna Jandhyala
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2023 7:13 PM
To: Prakash Shah <arya...@googlemail.com>
Cc: Jataayu <jata...@gmail.com>; Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>; Raghu Ananthanarayanan <ragh...@gmail.com>; INDICA <IndicA...@googlegroups.com>; Founder <fou...@indica.org.in>; bvpar...@googlegroups.com; indicabooks100...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Symposium on Jaati, Varna, and Caste
Jataayu Garu,
I am curious to know what subjective opinions Chaitra garu said.
I watched his session and he basically commented on how each of the theories can't satisfactorily explain the phenomenon in Indian society.
Unless one understands the drawbacks of existing theories, how can new theories be proposed?
As for Balu, I think his theory of lack of religion in India is the most satisfactory I have encountered as I struggled to make sense of India. His theory made sense because you "saw" it in real life. There was no hypotheses pulled out of thin air. Balu not only showed why India doesn't have religion but also showed why Westerners think that we have religion.
I am not learned enough to comment either on Balu or Chaitra mode deeply but that's my sense.
I will comment on the symposium separately but suffice to say that it was much needed and we need more of these at regular intervals.
Aparna
On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 9:23 AM 'Prakash Shah' via INDICA <IndicA...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Posting again as the initial post was unclear at least as it appeared to me.
“Prof MS Chaitra in his session just kept talking about how complex this whole sociocultural phenomenon is, especially while looked from the Western Frameworks, by giving many subjective opinions, and just stopped there without offering any value addition to the discourse, in the true style of some of the books of his Guru SN Balagangadhara
”
The fact that you may not have been able to understand Chaitra’s presentation or its importance does not mean that it was composed of subjective opinions. Your lack of ability to grasp it should not be used as a pretext to make an ad hominem remark on him or Balagangadhara. Balagangadhara’s is the best available research programme on India. If you don’t appreciate that then it is not their fault.
Best wishes,
Prakash
On 18 Apr 2023, at 15:29, Prakash Shah <arya...@googlemail.com> wrote:
“ Prof MS Chaitra in his session just kept talking about how complex this whole sociocultural phenomenon is, especially while looked from the Western Frameworks, by giving many subjective opinions, and just stopped there without offering any value addition to the discourse, in the true style of some of the books of his Guru SN Balagangadhara
<🙂.png>
”
The fact that you may not have been able to understand Chaitra’s presentation or its importance does not mean that it was composed of subjective opinions. Your lack of ability to grasp it should not be used as a pretext to make an ad hominem remark on him or Balagangadhara. Balagangadhara’s is the best available research programme on India. If you don’t appreciate that then it is not their fault.
My FB post on this: https://www.facebook.com/jataayu.blore/posts/pfbid02gJnbgL5phzPWMfL2if3Z4TwswJF46W7XViYpoQVy5cGH1nRhbUkpkbrWhn3Sxqddl
Symposium on Jaati, Varna, Caste organized by INDICA was a good event with many thought-provoking and insightful presentations. I will share a few comments on some of the sessions. Complete video of all the sessions here: https://www.youtube.com/live/vQMOyEY9N4Q?feature=share
The sessions were well moderated and contextualized by Nagaraj Paturi. "Ground reality of Jati, Book reality of Varna, Colonial, governmental reality of Caste", he summarized in his own talk that came towards the end. He proposed Jati studies as an academic category like 'Gender studies' and remarked that this phenomenon should be studied from *inside* by recording and documenting how the Jati participants view all these 3 realities on the ground. I cannot agree more.
Sessions that focused on the *Present* and *contemporary* practical realities:
'Caste in politics divides, but caste in business and economic sphere unites', said Prof. R Vaidyanathan in his 'Caste as the Social Capital' which was strongly anchored in the contemporary realities and the hard data that he had collected and analyzed as part of his book by the same name. The session by Prof Kanagaraj Easwaran was insightful in which he highlighted how the harmonious religious traditions enrich and provide the much needed 'Social Integration' on the ground in the Kongu region in an organic way, without even being aware of 'Social theory' conceived by the West while creating the discipline of Sociology to address the problems created by modernity and Industrial revolution. The thoughtful session on 'Machinevaad' by Halley Kalyan threw light on the problems of loss of livelihood and rural poverty of Jatis involved in some specific crafts, weaving and other occupations, contrasting that with the high pitch discourse on 'Manuvaad'. The session by Sumanaspati Reddy discussed the issues related to Scheduled Tribe communities of Telengana and Andhra.
Prof MS Chaitra in his session just kept talking about how complex this whole sociocultural phenomenon is, especially while looked from the Western Frameworks, by giving many subjective opinions, and just stopped there without offering any value addition to the discourse, in the true style of some of the books of his Guru SN Balagangadhara
Sessions with a focus on the past, the theories on Varna, Jati concepts, religious scriptures etc. -
The talk 'Varna: from Buddha to Vemana' by Srinivas Udumudi gave a good overview of the early evolution of the Varna concepts from the Vedas through Dharma Sutras through Buddhism and later in Smritis, and then again in the medieval era through Bhakti movement stages. "The harsh criticism against birth based Varna and the notions of ritualistic purity, and the question on 'who is the true Brahmana" continues in the same tone for 2000 years from Buddha to Vemana, in many spiritual masters", he points out in the end. An important point for Hindu society and Hindutva sociopolitical consolidation in the present times.
"Ritualistic dimension of Varna" (Nitin Shridhar) and "Jati-Varna based on violence and non-violence" (Sushumna Kannan) - both these sessions were different kinds of apologist polemics and speculative attempts to "justify" the scriptural injunctions related social exclusion (of Shudras) and Varna based privileges (of Brahmanas) etc. The polemics was too much skewed towards justifying the scriptures, rather than presenting an unbiased and historical perspective in context.
There were some sessions on how the British Colonialism created the 'Caste' category that did not exist in the traditional Indian society. And some other sessions explaining how Kula-Jati-Varna was an adaptive, flexible social category originally but made into a rigid and fixed one now. This discourse has become popular and sort of "mainstream" now, thanks to the works of Dharmpal, Nicholas Dirks, and off late by Rajiv Malhotra.
Overall, the symposium was good, containing multifaceted ideas. I hope INDICA will bring this in the form of a book, like an anthology of essays.
Regards,
Jtyu
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/IndicAcademy/CAJGj9ebcxwrijht%2BYbYqziRGg%3DCTWasQFfApG0Ac_s_TfeO2Kw%40mail.gmail.com.
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Regards,
Aparna
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