Patrick Oliveelle - News item on Sacred Thread history needs review- rebuttal by Schoalrs of tradition.
BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste
I am sharing a news item presumably explaining ‘History of Sacred Thread (?)- yajnpavitam – janaivu) and ‘Ayur-Veda’- Title of discipline (!?). Adding editorial footnote as ‘ Views are personal’ does not take away the damaging impact of the news item, which needs clear clean evidence based rebuttal. [ The text of news items is attached for quick reference ].
Opinion by Patrick Olivelle – Article Edited by Aamaan Alam Khan .
Patrick Olivelle is Professor Emeritus of Asian Studies at the University of Texas at Austin. He is known for his work on early
Indian religions, law, and statecraft. Views are personal.
URL-2 : Ancient Indian medical system had an image crisis. A new name fixed it (theprint.in)
Opinion by Patrick Olivelle – Article Edited by Aamaan Alam Khan.
Regards
BVK Sastry
Megh Kalyanasundaram
"The history of dharma took a dramatic turn when it was first adopted by Buddhists to label the salvific knowledge discovered by the Buddha, making it one of the three ‘gems’ of Buddhism: Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. Furthermore, in the middle of the third century BCE, the term was co–opted by King Ashoka as the central concept of the new moral philosophy articulated in his inscriptions. It was probably during this period that dharma began to occupy a central position in Brahmanical theological writings as well. Brahmin theologians began to compose texts on dharma, titled ‘Dharmashastra’."
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Bijoy Misra
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BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste Misra ji
1. I agree with you on the line of action : <Let the ancient India's discoveries be explored systematically and scientifically >.
The challenge is ‘Do we have clarity on: What is Ancient Indian (Yoga-?) Scientists Model and Tools ? (Goal oriented Use)?
Pride claims and hype apart, and keeping aside the ‘academia research which look like in at least some cases, as
‘coconuts (= Shaastra- Vijnana) researched and analysed as ‘cherries (Religion-Science)’ to be crushed to extract juice extraction.
2. In this context, Can we have a show up of first list-top ten names, who are willing and can volunteer to help explore ‘Traditional Applied Vedic Sciences and Professional Technologies - Upa-Veda) in four frames, proudly heralded as ‘Indian Discoveries’, namely :
= 1. Sciences of Life ( Ayurveda),
= 2. Science and Engineering of Weapons (Dharnur-veda),
= 3. Science of Cognitive Creativity and Semiotics (Gandharva Veda), and
= 4. Science of Applied Technologies of Matter- Material and Mind (Vastu Veda)
Using ‘Traditional-(Samskruth) Scientist’ lens - tools- goals ?
3. My reason to seek this helpful clarification: I see Many researchers are not getting clarity on Foundational Axioms used in Connecting- Modelling- Mapping - Modern Science Terminology and Framework to the framework of Traditional Applied Vedic Sciences and Professional technologies.
Reason: Samskruth -Language Decoding perspectives adapted.
(I would be very happy to get corrected for help to correct my understanding in this dialogue. I do not claim all knowledge, not even full knowledge and complexity in this dialogue. Yet, asking a question like this seems necessary at this stage.).
4. What do I mean by Samskruth Language Decoding Perspective ?- the clarity on ‘Samskrutham’ used in a TECHNICAL WAY in TEXTS’.
Traditional Texts (= Mantra-Sukta-Sutra-Prayoga) based on VISION (= YOGA-DARSHANA) need decrypting techniques of
VEDANGA Framework. (= NIRUKTI/ VYAAKHYAANA) to be applied on UPA-VEDAS for results.
Analogy: ‘COMPILED PROGRAMS NEED RIGHT KIND OF TOOLS – APPS- PROCESSES TO DECODE and EXCUTE
Researchers are adapting ‘TRANSLATED (= anuvaada) TEXT ; Treating ‘ Program-Code’ as ‘Narrative – Help Text’.
Root Hermeneutic Error: (a) Lingual - Translation of many traditional texts misses the ‘PROGRAM-CODE- Practice
Technicality ’. (b) Instead, experiment design substitutes the gap using ‘Social – Scripture- Translation model and Faith
practice’ to explore, leaving out the Fundamental Model and Mensura of traditional Yoga-Science of Body- Mind-
Memory- Language Modelling (= Chitta- Smruti- Vrutti : Patanjali yoga-sutra -1-6). This short version of text messes up
the expected outcome of linking ‘Dhyana – Dharanaa - Japa’ Yoga-Practice technicalities to ‘Smruti’ and ‘ Medha- sukta-
Paarayana’.
5. What is needed for a review ? in Samskruth Langauge Perspective?- The way of Yoga-Samskrutham?
Goal: Mantra Meditation chanting as Yoga- practice for overcoming Mental Health conditions.
Guidance resource: PYS guidance Line / Basis of Yoga-Practice for Mind- Health Care : PYS (1-30 to 1-39)
What seems to be missed in current research designs ? – The PYS- DHYANA- technicality backing PYS - Sutra 2-11
(ध्यानहेयास्तद्वृत्तयः॥२.११॥ )
Modern Researchers take ‘DHYANA’ practice to be same across several cultures and religion-faith practices.
Where to look for PYS – Yoga-Science Technicality used in UPA-Vedas as ‘ Indian Yogi’s discovery’ ?
Dharanaa – PYS – 3-1
Dhyana – PYS – 3-2
Japa – PYS – 1-28
Smruti – PYS-1-11
.
6. A Test case for exploration:
Per Tradition, many ( including me) faithfully, implicitly believe in the efficacy of ‘Route –
Religious – Ritualistic - Vocal /Semi articulated – Some traditional Chanting / Mental repetition of ‘Gayatri Mantra’
activates the ‘Memory Power ( Smruti-Dharanaa / Dhee Shakti- Prachodanaa).
This statement of pride and faith is based on ‘implicit acceptance’ of Vedic authority, Traditional practices, Cultural family
inheritance and many such factors.
Per Modern Science, How would one go to explore this tradition, under which discipline of science ? What would be
The Experiment design criterion ? Connecting ‘Sound-sequence Chanting’ to ‘Memory Power increase’ ?
Some leads to explore on work done already:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9623891/
https://ijip.in/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/18.01.028.20241201.pdf
Regards
BVK Sastry
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Nagaraj Paturi
Upanayana – Historical Development
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Now let us look at the historical development of this saṃskāra.[2] The upanayana seems to be an ancient practice—at least three thousand years old—given that we see similarities (sacred girdle and shirt) in the ancient Zoroastrian scriptures[3] and that the word ‘brahmacārī’ appears in the Ṛgveda-saṃhitā[4] itself.
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BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste Megh K.
On < The aforementioned paper does not critique the views expressed about the temporal commencement of the sacred thread tradition(s) >
Please go through the indented notes, made in 9-points; and placed below. Indented notes are placed below article snippets.
I hope this helps to see how the article is an open motive filled critique of ‘sacred thread tradition’ which marks the ‘Identity of a section of Hindu community’ . The approach is to critique and misinterpret a ‘sacrament’, which is hall mark of a ‘RELGIOUS IDENTITY with a historicity of several millennia’.
The article is an open and veiled attack touching the following:
- The ‘IDENTITY’ of a ‘Community (Targeted) in a Nation’.
- Use of ‘convenient time lines, arguments, constructions to sully the ‘IDENTITY OF A COMMUNITY’ in Nation
- Attribution of MOTIVES to a ‘RELIGIOUS SACRED RITUAL (SAMSKARA) of a ‘A RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY’ in Nation
- Bad portrayal of ‘Scripture and Sacred texts’ which provide Heritage Pride and Civilizational Citizen- Identity in NATION.
- Academic freedom invoked to propose a ‘Negative Reconstruction of ‘History of Bharath that has become India: A Nation
where Hindus are majority by numeric declaration in census !
If this kind of article is not needing an academic debate, a social, scholarly and political rebuttal from the ‘Scholars and Practitioners of ‘Bharteeya –Vidwat- Sampradayas’, what is the purpose of talking on ‘Breaking India’/ ‘Battle for Sanskrit’ ?
I place the snippets from the text of Patrick Olivelle shared, used by me to infer < the damaging impact of the news item, which needs clear clean evidence based rebuttal. >
The technicality of ‘Sacred thread’ ( Yajnopavitam) is deep connected to Vedic Yajna and Upanishadic Dhyana-yoga-Meditation practices.
The explicit clear references are in Bruhadaranyaka Upanishad - 5.14.1 onwards. The text is way back in history time line to CE ref.
Yajnopavitam- wear and use related to yajna-karma practices are detailed in Dharma shastras. (Samaaja- Gruhastha-Samskara.) Yajnopavitam- wear and use related to Yoga-Meditation mysticism are detailed in Upanishads. (Adhyatma- Sannyasa-Samskara).
Point -1: (Snippet- Title) :
The title < Brahmins didn’t always wear the sacred thread. They adopted it at the start of the Common Era > is
misleading, not supported by evidence.
Reason: The title is not factual and misguiding !
The practice-historicity of wearing ‘Sacred Thread’ (= upaveeta, yajnopaveeta, brahma –sutra) by ALL Three
VARNAS goes way before start of Common Era ! ( May be a search in Ramayana helps for reference fixing).
The units of yajnopaveetam worn as single (ekam) or doubled (dviteeyam) or third (Truteeyam)
serve different identity markers for the ‘ashrama-bheda’- as
brahmacharya (One unit)
gruhastha (Two units- + using privileged additional clothe - uttareeyartha) –
gruhastha (Three units - opting for a preference convenience in place of an additional clothe).
The ‘Varna’ related Samskara and Social Practice along with ritual practices carry specific reference for Managing Yajnopavitam.
The option to embrace ‘Sannyasa- Ashrama’, a practice way before common era, involves giving up the ‘Sacred Thread’ and ‘ shaving the head’. A practice inherited by Buddhists from Vedic resources. ( Well, one can do further research on this).
Point -2: (Snippet –on- Logic Adapted and arrogance of playing academic jury on a different cultural ethos and practice) :
< Much of the common wisdom about ancient India, I am afraid, is highly suspect, especially the view that ideas and institutions have existed since the hoary past, from time immemorial. The Sanskrit term sanātana, much in vogue these days, has been co–opted to express these views. Today, I want to debunk some of these presuppositions in the hope that more people—not just scholars—will question what is peddled as received wisdom. To do this, we must subject these cultural constructs to historical and philological scrutiny. >
Reason: The term ‘Sanatana’ at least has a historicity of Gita based usage and in the meaning of ‘Kula- Dharma/ Shaashwata- Dharma- aachara (Gita -1-39 to 44). Unless one wants to make a historic date of Srimad Bhagavad-Gita as ‘start of common era / post Mahaveera- Buddha (?!)
The ‘arrogance’ of jury judgement on tradition targeted and ‘ motive’- shows up.
The question to ask is : What is the basis to formulate the proposal to examine <common wisdom> to < debunk … presuppositions > and <.. subject these cultural constructs’ to <historical and philological scrutiny> ?
A Total negation of a living practicing tradition, for at least five millennia in the home land, as socio-cultural practice as ‘religion of land’ ?? and covered by the very same ‘Dharma-Shaastras’ invoked ??
Point -3: (Snippet - Historicity Time line ! ) : ‘dharma’ was coined by the poets of the Rig Veda in the second half of the second millennium BCE. At that time, it was a neologism. Yet, dharma did not become a central theological concept for quite some time, certainly not until after the late Vedic texts, including the Upanishads, which emerged in the middle of the first millennium BCE.
Reason: Any need to provide explanation on the time line fallacy ?!
Point -4: (Snippet) :
< The history of dharma took a dramatic turn when it was first adopted by Buddhists to label the salvific knowledge discovered by the Buddha, making it one of the three ‘gems’ of Buddhism: Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha. Furthermore, in the middle of the third century BCE, the term was co–opted by King Ashoka as the central concept of the new moral philosophy articulated in his inscriptions. It was probably during this period that dharma began to occupy a central position in Brahmanical theological writings as well. Brahmin theologians began to compose texts on dharma, titled ‘Dharmashastra’. However, the complete history and the many vicissitudes of dharma are still to be written. >
Reason: Gita based ‘Dharma’ pre-existed ‘Siddhartha Gautama Buddha’- The figure head of ‘Buddhism’ as projected today.
Using ‘Inappropriate < History and Philology >, the History of an ancient civilization can certainly find its distorted social
presentation and cause damage. Academic freedom certainly shields such exploration.
Any more need to provide explanation on the time line fallacy ?! and ‘motive’.
Point -5: (Snippet – Convenient reference and ignoring a living practice ! an error of convenient forgetting ) :
< This is what Professor AL Basham said in his justly famous book The Wonder That Was India (page 139):
“A sharp distinction was made between the three higher classes and the Śūdra. The former were twice-born (dvija), once at their natural birth and again at their initiation, when they are invested with the sacred thread and received into Āryan society.”>
Reason: Even to this day, even a socially lower grade person is given a ‘ Yajnopavita’ like ‘clothe –string’ to wear before ‘
they perform the ‘special religious rites’ – to temporarily infuse- invest- invite the ‘ Higher order pre-qualification’ needed
for the performance of rites. The performer knows of the ‘act’; and blissfully remain ignorant / indifferent for the meaning-
significance of the practice they are following; their own socio-religious inclusivity in ‘VARNA’ system.
Point -6: (Snippet- Convenience of overlooking ‘DVIJA’- evidence to construct a preferred history by philology) :
< But scratch the surface of this socio-religious category, and we uncover its startling hidden history. A bit of philology regarding the word dvija shows that this term is anything but old, at least with this meaning. It is absent from the entire Vedic corpus, making its dramatic appearance only in the late second century BCE in the Dharmasūtra of Gautama (10.1). …. The term is also absent in the earliest Dharmasūtra, that of Apastamba (3rd c. BCE), and even in the great commentary of the grammarian Patañjali, dated to the middle of the second century BCE. So, the word dvija—along with the theology surrounding it—was an invention that can be traced to the late second century BCE at the earliest….. The recovery of the linguistic history of dvija permits us to ask further historical and sociological questions. .. Note that this was about a century after Ashoka and his radical religious reforms, which questioned the theory of Brahmanical exceptionalism and ignored the significance of social hierarchy represented by the system of four varṇas. What the dvija ideology did was to separate the upper classes of society from the lower ones, elevating the position of the Brahmin as the dvija par excellence. Historians and sociologists, building on philological insights, may want to explore why this ideology was invented at this precise time and why and how it came to dominate Brahmanical social thought over the centuries.>
Reason: How does one account for the presence of the term ‘DVIJA’ in GITA 17-14; and ‘BRAHMANA’ in 18-41?
What is ‘VIPRA’ , SHROTRIYA- terms which go cognate with ‘DVIJA’ in Vedic corpus ??
Any more need to provide explanation on the time line and approach of philological -fallacy ?! and ‘motive’.
Point -7: (Snippet – Mischievous invocation of MM – P V Kane’s quote ! ) :
< Then there is the ritual of Vedic initiation or upanayana itself, which is thought to constitute that second birth. This rite has been practiced for many centuries without any connection to such a second birth until the time of Gautama. It is still prevalent, especially among Brahmins. In common speech, it is often referred to as the ‘thread ceremony’, because the sacred thread or cord is placed over the left shoulder of the boy. This cord is called brahmasutra, yajnopavita, or simply upavita. Wearing the sacred thread is the visible mark of a Brahmin. So, it may come as a surprise that early descriptions of this ritual do not mention the investiture of such a thread at all.
The great scholar of the Dharmashastras, PV Kane, expressed his surprise: “It is remarkable that Ashvalayana, Apastamba, and several other [authors of Grihyasutras] do not say a word about the sacred thread.” (History of Dharmaśāstra, 1962-75, II: 284). .”>
Reason: Total disrespect to the living practice of a community and civilizational memory,
Total disregard for evidenced display of Sacred thread in ‘Sacred Iconography (Devataa- Pratima- Lakshana).
Point -8: (Snippet – Convenient constructions of observed social practice ! an faulty way of text-practice explanation) :
< In fact, a central feature of the rite in its early descriptions involves tying a girdle around the waist of the boy being initiated, not the investiture of a thread. The term yajnopavita or upavita is used instead to refer to how the upper garment, usually a long shawl, is worn during various ritual activities; it was not worn permanently. The modern ‘thread’ is a stand-in for the upper garment and was meant to be worn always. This practice probably came into vogue around the beginning of the Common Era and is first described in the Baudhayana Dharmasutra. So, this mark of Brahmanical identity was invented at a particular time in history, and again historians and sociologists need to investigate the social and political circumstances that led to the adoption of the sacred thread as part of the Vedic initiation ceremony and as a visible sign of a man’s twice-born identity..”>
Reason: Lack of clarity on ‘ Maunji – yajnopavita and uttareeya techniclaity’- Which a non-practicing scholar is not
Expected to understand or appreciate!
Does the scholars take a similar stand on the ‘wearing of Religious symbols’ in other communities ? – as a historic identity
creation –marker ? - like Size, Identity Symbolism and Shape of the ‘Holy Cross worn by Christian communities’ ??
[ Pl. explore - THE SIGN OF THE CROSS (catholictradition.org)
http://www.catholictradition.org/Classics/signum-crucis.htm ]
Example-1: in Modern practice of Saivism (Hindu), some groups wear ‘ Ishta-linga’ over body. It is a historic
Practice-2: but the SACRED IDENTITY-IDEALOGY has little relevance to ‘ POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES’ !
Example, in Modern practice of some Vaishnava (Hindu), communities, Hot stamping sacred marks on body ‘ Tapta- mudra
dharana’ is a historic practice . but the SACRED IDENTITY-IDEALOGY has little relevance to ‘ POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES’ !
Point -9: (Snippet – what is scratching below the surface … ) :
< What I have provided is just a sample of a much wider phenomenon. When we scratch below the surface, many so-called immemorial or even eternal ideas, customs, and institutions are found to have historical origins in defined times and spaces. Frequently, their architects take pains to hide these recent origins, presenting them in the garb of eternality. Looking at modern scholarship, we see an interesting circularity. Many of these institutions were invented by Brahmanical authors. Early Western scholars, working during the colonial era, used these texts to present the ‘history’ of ancient Indian culture and religion, now clad in scholarly garb. These modern scholarly introductions seeped into both Western and Indian popular imagination and understanding. The myth of an ‘unchanging India’ has infected not only the Western imagination but also, curiously, nationalistic discourse within India itself. .”>
Reason: Any further need to see through ‘Motive’ and ‘Final goal ‘Targeted Tarnishing of Brahmana – Identity’ ??
-------------------
Regards
BVK Sastry
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Megh Kalyanasundaram
Sent: 03 October 2024 12:11
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Patrick Oliveelle - News item on Sacred Thread history needs review- rebuttal by Schoalrs of tradition.
An older thread (https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/YnQofZKMZxU/m/H7bGyO-zBgAJ) contains a link to a paper—primarily a critical engagement with a facet of Dr. Olivelle's views — which might be of interest to those piqued by the following sentences (highlighted in yellow below) in the first of two links [ Brahmins didn’t always wear the sacred thread. They adopted it at the start of the Common Era (msn.com)] shared by Dr. BVK Sastry ji:
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Bijoy Misra
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Nagaraj Paturi
That in their perspective is a science vs belief fight and their mission / responsibility in behalf of science.
It is the belief 😁 of the Indologists that history is a science and what they do is historical critical study i.e., application of the historical model of literary criticism to Indic texts.
They pitch tradition against history and attack tradition from their religious faith in history and in their religious commitment for their enlightenment forefathers .
The following are the words of Prof. Bonkhorst:
He also says, ,Religions and nationalisms of all kind come with a vision of their past. Indeed, the very word tradition implies that its adherents believe they know something about their shared past, for traditions claim to keep an earlier state of affairs alive. Traditions whether religious corporate or national, including in the Indian context, traditions relating to castes are by their very nature the enemies of historical scholarship. All is fine as long as historians reveal a past that corresponds to the claims of the traditionalists. Sooner or later they will come up with features that do not fit. At that point the romance will be over.
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Ramesh Rao
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Bijoy Misra
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BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste
1. Misra ji – I agree < The discovery of India is profound! >. Sciences of ancient India and Socio-Cultural practices of India need different working tools, skills and resources. The relevance, priorities and benefits are different.
2. Paturi ji – I concur with the identification of ‘need’ to keep focus and rebut/ clarify on ‘their’ interpretation-narration on ‘not-
their’ history- religion- faith- practices !
When ever- Where ever- How ever modes and means ( - यदा यदा हि - )
< They pitch tradition against history and attack tradition from their religious faith in history and in their religious
Commitment for their enlightenment forefathers . >
I do not wish for a day when ‘Dvija’ identity get listed under (SC/ST- Caste identity) under Article 341/ 342 by the vested authority in President of India and a Government Ordinance, preferring < Caste Identity criterion being : Community at Nation - subjected to social discrimination and untouchability for time immemorial > and overriding the constitution text in HINDI : reading:
Source: Preamble, The Constitution of India (in English and Hindi) (ruralindiaonline.org)
Per legal opinions and case laws: Process of selection & announcement of SC/ST
Scheduled Castes (SC): The identification of communities as the President of India does Scheduled Castes based on recommendations from the respective state governments. The state governments conduct surveys, research, and consultations with experts and local communities to determine the communities subjected to social discrimination and untouchability for time immemorial, whereas;
Scheduled Tribes (ST): The identification of communities as Scheduled Tribes is also done by the President of India based on recommendations from the respective state governments. The state governments conduct surveys, research, and consultations to identify the indigenous or tribal communities with distinct cultural, linguistic, & social characteristics.
3. The question needs to go beyond cyber talk and pronouncement of ‘ pious wish’ and ‘ submission of petition/ PLI – model approach. It is seeking a ‘CLEAR POLICY - PRONOUNCIATION BY NATIONS EXECUTIVE TO BE IN LINE WITH CONSTITUTION OF NATION, which starts with a pre-amble: ‘ We the people of INDIA..’.
What is the limit of ‘ TIME IMMEMORIAL’ in the criterion of < subjected to social discrimination and untouchability for time immemorial > . It is here , the HISTORY and PHILOLOGY of ACADEMIA plays its free hand.
4. The key issue is choice of academic path for social critiquing attack on ‘NATION- CITIZEN: IDENTITY – FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS- FREEDOM FOR RELIGION PRACTICE’ – by veiled routes to interpret CONSTITUTION using < SELECTIVE – PREJUDICED – USE OF HISTORY and PHILOLOGY> ; A way to force a ‘Democratic GOVERNANCE TO PROMULGATE RELIGION-DIVIDE BY SOCIO-ECONOMIC CRITERION IN COMMUNITIES AT NATION.
While Constitution has a specific definition for Scheduled Caste, a provision for inclusion and exclusion of listed communities in to this list for executive action, there seems to be no specific definition of ‘What constitutes a CASTE (Varna- Jati- Kula – Dharma – Identity by Sacrament- Samskara- ritual , By birth- parentage, adoption, grooming, Initiation. These are foundational issues in DHARMA-SHAASTRA framework to guide FAITH-RELIGION-RITUAL –SACRAMENT PRACTICES.).
The cryptic question is : What would be Indian Constitution guidance on ‘CASTE’ status modification by ‘Sacred Thread Ceremony ?
For ‘Dharma-Shaastra’ declares : The Parent- Master (Pitru- Acharya) Guided
Sacred thread sacrament - ‘UPANAYANA SAMSKARA’-
modifies ‘(Physical Parentage Birth-CASTE/ VARNA – STATUS to ‘DVIJA/ BRAHMANA’ Status.
For ‘Dharma-Shaastra’ : Socio-economic status is NOT the CRITERION for SACRAMENT LINKED IDENTITY.
For ‘Dharma-Shaastra’: Execution,Amend,Moderation Authority is: DHARMACHARYA; It is NOT STATE HEAD.
5. Are we prepared good enough and skilled, equipped with resources to get in to this level of Global Academic Dialogue and
Defend National Cultural – History and Bharateeya- Dharma based Identity by ‘ the same pool of texts and traditions’ providing
religion- diversity in India ? The home land and nation where majority of practitioners live.
In other words, how confident, coherent and concurrent are we about ‘ our understanding of our own texts –traditions backing
our Social, religious, economic – cultural practices by ‘Named Identities’ ?
6. In current news context, I draw your attention to news links below, where we see inevitable clash of Constitution anchored judiciary and Social Actions anchored Executive Governance :: A ‘Confrontation brining in ‘ Interpretation - debate of ‘Dharma-Shaastra- (Post-Colonial HISTORY- Samskruth-Language PHLOLGOGY- Observed Social PRACTICES in Nation as Citizen-Religion- Identity- Fundamental rights ) . The key parts of constitution would be Article 341 and 342, definitions.
HC judges’ remarks ‘against monastic tradition, sanatana dharma’. What Sadhguru’s Isha Foundation told SC (msn.com) - (Text of web page attached for easy reference).
Supreme Court letting states subclassify SCs-STs. I call it 'Constitution amendment by stealth' (theprint.in) - (Text of web page attached for easy reference).
Articles 341 & 342 of Indian Constitution: How are SC/ ST decided in India? (finology.in)
Article 341: Scheduled Castes - Constitution of India
Article 366 in Constitution of India (indiankanoon.org)
Article 366(24) in Constitution of India (indiankanoon.org)
7. For whatever historic reasons, there is a < historic- philological > disconnect and divergence in understanding and practice of < Dharma-Shaastra’ texts. This needs a total review.
For this exercise, MM PV Kane’s volumes (Pre- Independence and Prior to Indian Constitution drafting) serve as a good reference point to take a re-look in chartering the ‘ Constitution related links to Dharma Shaastra’:: ‘Dharma-Identity future by Sacrament like ‘Upanayanam ( and by Extension, VIVAHA).
8. If ‘wearing sacred thread is an identity of ‘Male: Dvija/ Brahmana’, what would be the identity of ‘Fe-Male: Dvijaa/ Brahmanee’ - wearing a ‘Mangala-sutra - Kumkum and NOT having Sacred thread ’ ?
And what about countless ‘saffron wearing ‘Spiritual – Socio- Religious – Community - leaders who do not wear / desist ‘sacred thread’ ?? yet ‘worship ‘Devataa’s ??
It is NOT EASY to do <The discovery of India (which is profound!> and connect <India, which was born out of Bharath/ Mahabharath / and linked to Teerthankara - Bharata , Arhat Buddha Lineage which subscribe to ‘ DHARMA / DHAMMA > and < keeps Iconic Ideal of SriRam Rajya >.
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BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste Misra ji
Thanks for the pointer to explore ‘ Mantra’ dimensions of Vak’. Sharing my studies:
My research exploration of ‘Mantra- Bhashaa’ Practical –Practicing tradition, over past four decades,
keeping focus on one term ‘Veda-Mantra’ Darshana / shruti
( anchored to Mantra- Braahmanaayoh Veda –naamadheyam : A Meemaamsaa definition),
(Veda-Mantras are ‘Ishwara Vacahana).
This exploration walked me through several technicalities and practicing traditions, research and ‘faith belief- hype’ – jungle.
The allied expressions explored are : ‘Mantra-Sukta, Gayatri Mantra, Moola Mantra, Mantra-Varna, Akshara Mantra, Ashtakshari
Mantra, Maha mantra, Taaraka Mantra, Naama-Mantra…’….and linked to ‘different models- modules of meditation.
Irrespective of tradition as Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Sikh, Abrahamic, Oriental, Sumer, Seminary, Rosicrucian meditation,
Egyptian, Islamic, Sufi.. the root thought points to Samskruth texts and traditions; and links to Paninian deliberations on
‘Mantra- Chandas- Svara- Varna- Akshara’.
The ‘ Brain –Spine-Body-Mind Science of ‘Thought articulation’ – in Taittiriya Upanishad as ‘Shikshaa –Adhyaya’ and flowing in
to Panini Shikshaa / Sri Vidya Mantra Shaastra / Yogopanishats/ Tantras / Abhinava Gupta, Seems less understood and more
hyped.
The overarching term for this ‘Mantra exploration’ was driven by the question:
- Why Patanjali invokes the term ‘VAK-YOGA’ as VEDIC TERM for ‘Language: Samskrutham’ ?
- Why Gita calls ‘ Vak’ as a form of Yoga (Gita 17-15); Why Patanjali Yoga-sutra (4-1) connects ‘MANTRA’ to ‘Birth-
Medicine- Yoga’ for ‘Siddhi’ and link with ‘SAMADHI’ – higher states of consciousness.
This is summary of my search as ‘Yoga-Samskrutham’ seeking solutions on what connects ‘Yoga and Samskrutham’ ?
The TM (MMY) research studies and many more listed at NIH and other PB resources have used incompatible and
inappropriate models of LANGUAGE – MEDITATION PRACTICE- CONSCIOUSNESS Modelling- deep rooted to fuzzy postulates
preferred axioms and understanding of : Consciousness- Matter- Relations. Technical term: Chit Padartha / Gita (7-4) term:
Prakruti Model in Yoga-Science. Incidentaly ‘Prakruti’ is the common technicality in Samskruth for the ‘ base input term to be
processed by modifier ‘Pratyaya- (Sutra- Swara- Artha Vivakshaa)Prakriyaa’.
Prakruti and Pratyaya are constituted out of ‘ VARNA- AKSHARA’ in 14 Maaheswara/ Panini- Shiva-sutras.
This is where I connect to your research : Varna – Meaning- Universal sets and Processes- Brain Processes- Memory…..Speech-
Ramcharita maansa : Experience of ‘Chanda-‘Rasa’ वर्णानामर्थसंघानां रसानां छन्दसामपि। मंगलानां च कर्त्तारौ …
‘Vaanee’ is also the synonym for language: ‘Samskrutham’.
And lingering question: Why Indian schools are NOT teaching ‘Samskrutham as Yoga’ and embrace the ‘ IE – Tower of Babel
Linguistic history and Philology Traditions’ ! Where did we miss and deprecate the connection of Yoga and Samskrutham?
How did ‘Vak-yoga/ Vako Vakyam Main stream tradition, active in India ( at least till 17th century by evidenced records, got
underground, got distorted and yielded place for all kinds of hypes ! What is the impact of this shift in Samskruth learning
Pedagogy ! What can we do now, should be doing now.
I place select sutras from Panini – where ‘Mantra- Varna’ occurs; and not explored for its total linguistic and practical
significance. Information is available in commentary; but lost its essence in usage, research and translations.
२.१.६९ वर्णो वर्णेन ।
२.४.८० मन्त्रे घसह्वरणशवृदहाद्वृच्कृगमिजनिभ्यो लेः ।
३.२.२३ न शब्दश्लोककलहगाथावैरचाटुसूत्रमन्त्रपदेषु ।
३.२.७१ मन्त्रे श्वेतवहौक्थशस्पुरोडाशो ण्विन् ।
३.२.८९ सुकर्मपापमन्त्रपुण्येषु कृञः ।
३.३.९६ मन्त्रे वृषेषपचमनविदभूवीरा उदात्तः ।
४.४.१२५ तद्वानासामुपधानो मन्त्र इतीष्टकासु लुक् च मतोः ।
६.१.१५१ ह्रस्वाच्चन्द्रोत्तरपदे मन्त्रे ।
६.१.२१० नित्यं मन्त्रे ।
६.३.१३१ मन्त्रे सोमाश्वेन्द्रियविश्वदेव्यस्य मतौ ।
६.४.५३ जनिता मन्त्रे ।
६.४.१४१ मन्त्रेष्वाङ्यादेरात्मनः ।
Many times, I feel it is lone cry and journey. Does it matter any more ? Is it at all a priority for the community pride and
identity –wellness –protection ?
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Bijoy Misra
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Nagaraj Paturi
My point is , if we express our shock at their 'historical' critique of our 'traditional' beliefs, they feel vindicated because their purpose in making such writings itself is that shock.
Whether the author himself is politically ideologically oriented or not, we can suspect political ideological intentions such as anti Brahminism and Hinduphobia from the side of the publishers and / or editors.
That comes in handy for those outsiders who want to use the faultlines or those insiders who are already bigoted against a community.
https://www.srimatham.com/upanayana--samavartana.html#:~:text=While%20investing%20the%20boy%20with,spiritual%20and%20intellectual%20pre%2Deminence.
has the following:
" While investing the boy with the sacred thread the Acharya blesses him with strength, wisdom and long life. A piece of deer-skin is usually attached to the thread in remembrance of the old days when the students would use a deer skin as an upper garment. It signifies spiritual and intellectual pre-eminence. The Kaupina or loincloth is the symbol of chastity, and the girdle (mekhala) symbolises that from now on the boy is bound by his obligations as taught in the three Vedas. The staff of palasa wood given to the boy indicates that he is now a custodian and transmitter of the Sacred Teachings of the Vedas, and gives him long life, lustre and holiness. "
Upper garment , here , seems to be the English for uttareeya(ka)m.
The article under discussion now has the following :
" In fact, a central feature of the rite in its early descriptions involves tying a girdle around the waist of the boy being initiated, not the investiture of a thread. The term yajnopavita or upavita is used instead to refer to how the upper garment, usually a long shawl, is worn during various ritual activities; it was not worn permanently. The modern ‘thread’ is a stand-in for the upper garment and was meant to be worn always. This practice probably came into vogue around the beginning of the Common Era and is first described in the Baudhayana Dharmasutra
In fact the historian trying to mock the traditional people himself does not make mention of any deer skin or deer skin 'upper garment' in the article under discussion. But the tradition insider's article makes a clear mention of the deer skin upper garment as an older culture. Who is this historian author mocking at ? (In a recent Upanayana that I attended , the purohita, in fact, brought a full deer skin yajnopaveeta and made the vatu wear it in stead of tying a small piece of deer skin to the cotton thread yajnopaveeta )
So what is the new 'historical' point that the historian author is making other than what is already known to the tradition insider ?
That cotton thread is the replacement for some other form of the same
or
that the rite itself is new ?
The historian's article has this sentence :
a central feature of the rite in its early descriptions involves tying a girdle around the waist of the boy being initiated, not the investiture of a thread
If the historian has to agree that there was some fact in the past, you must have a description of that in some text that is available to the historian. If such a text, or such a description of that fact is not available, we must take it that the fact did not exist is the approach of the historian.
Just for the sake of the argument, let us go with the historian.
Did the element of tying a girdle around the waist of the boy vanish , to be replaced by the 'investiture of a thread' ?
If you see the tradition-insider's description cited above from the Sri Matham website, it talks about the tying of the girdle as a separate element of the rite continuing even today. The cited traditional description says :
and the girdle (mekhala) symbolises that from now on the boy is bound by his obligations as taught in the three Vedas.
So the 'investiture of a thread' is not a replacement for the tying of the girdle. The following picture probably inserted by the editor (or even the historian himself) gives the impression that the 'upper garment ' (uttareeyakam) used to look something like this, some woolen blanket worn covering the head and the shoulders. But the person in the picture is wearing another upper garment spreading from the right upper shoulder
to the other side of the waist.
The article has the following sentence :
The term yajnopavita or upavita is used instead to refer to how the upper garment, usually a long shawl, is worn during various ritual activities.
The editor or the historian author himself inserted the following picture too
It is common sense to understand that this style of loosely hanging cloth hanging on only one side of the shoulder is not convenient to use during 'the ritual activities' ( author's words)
So the only convenient way of wearing the upper garment 😁 the shawl 😁 during 'the ritual activities' is spreading from one side of the shoulder to the other side of the waist keeping it tied as a ring not hanging and falling during bendings or obstructing while moving the hands freely.
From the left shoulder to the right waist is the convenient configuration to keep the right hand free for the actions to be performed with that hand.
the article has this :
The modern ‘thread’ is a stand-in for the upper garment and was meant to be worn always. This practice probably came into vogue around the beginning of the Common Era and is first described in the Baudhayana Dharmasutra.
" the beginning of the Common Era " 😁
What happened during this juncture as per the article ?
1. What was worn only during the ritual activities became a permanent costume.
2. An upper garment got replaced by a thread.
In the contemporary English descriptions of Upanayanam, we find the word 'rite of passage' . This word has come into vogue as a result of Hindu tradition-insiders finding the cultural anthropological term rite(s) of passage comparable to the Vedic traditional word Samskaara or Shodasha Samskaaras.
But the Cultural / Social Anthropological term 'rites of passage' has the implication not only that these rites are more or less cultural universals but also that they are very much older than " the beginning of the Common Era " .
If we go by this rite of passage approach to Upanayanam, while the existence of a 'rite of passage' like upanayanam can be a cultural universal, the details of the comparable rites of passage in other indigenous and traditional cultures of the world may not be the same in every culture.
So if the historian author understands these Cultural/Social Anthropological basics, he understands that the 'rite' initiating the child of Vedic culture into that culture must be as old as the Vedic culture itself irrespective of that getting (auto)ethnographed 'thickly' or 'thinly' or analyzed, or debated or coded in the texts that came down and became available to him in a written or oral form.
He may be able to only trace the details and changes in those details as reflected in the texts that came down and became available to him in a written or oral form.in a chronological order.
To a tradition-insider who is aware and is not averse to knowing that there is an evolution in those details ,, as reflected in the tradition insider's description of deer skin as a reminiscence, there is no new knowledge that he is adding.
All that the mocking (that can be understood from the above reasoning and evidence to be not adding any new knowledge to the tradition insider) can do is to come in handy for those outsiders who want to use the faultlines or those insiders who are already bigoted against a community.
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Bijoy Misra
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Ramesh Rao
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Bijoy Misra
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BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste Ramesh Rao, Paturi garu
1. On < The challenge for us/you is to elaborate on these careful rebuttals in journal articles, monographs, and books >
BVK Sastry(1) : Can you please suggest ‘ADDITIONAL- SOCIALLY COMMUNITY WISE – VIABLE – ALTERNATE- GROUND LEVEL’
Actions beyond ‘Academics in Air Conditioned and Cyber Group-chat- Rooms’ ? Needs Time-Resource-People.
The nature of imminent Disease- Danger is INSIDE NATION., Where Polity- Pedagogy is influenced by Academia.
The operational mode is < Executive Implementation of Constitution provisions safeguarding Nation-Citizen
Identity- Dignity and Fundamental rights. >.
The Time line is short. The impact of delay is far reaching and deep impacting INSIDE NATION on several fronts.
2. On < My point is , if we express our shock at their 'historical' critique of our 'traditional' beliefs, they feel vindicated because their purpose in making such writings itself is that shock. .. we can suspect political ideological intentions such as anti Brahminism and Hinduphobia from the side of the publishers and / or editors. .. That comes in handy for those outsiders who want to use the fault lines or those insiders who are already bigoted against a community.> :
BVK Sastry (2): I Accept and respect all your good pointers on strategy, timing and mode of engagement.
This ‘new- game in new arena for action’ involves dialogue with major non-academic partners at Nation.
What is your guidance to address this new dimension of challenge inside the nation- constitution- linked?
Time-Resource-People – Team Work and Leadership for Nationwide impact.
If ‘Brahminism by Sanatana Dharma: Vedas / Gita’ is sullied, Main Identity of ‘Hinduism’ at India gets sullied.
Main players are at Nation and State, the executive agencies implementing constitution - provisions at nation and academic institutions (funded by tax-payers money), media, who look at legal provisions, case laws, media reports. All this is impacting common persons of community for their social and self-identity, locked to inherited culture-religion, relations, economies and employment-futures. The game is going on for over three centuries! And response from defending teams is not strong enough to defend its turf.
In post-Independence India, past 75 years of Independence, ‘Brahminism’ is statistically, demographically, politically – an extremely low minority – low social impact – in the Bigger talk of ‘HINDUISM’. ‘Brahmanism’ is targeted as the Achilles heel of Hinduism.
This issue of ‘History- culture- Religion- Vedas – Aryans (?) – Sanskrit- Language…. is already documented and discussed in several education commission related reports, starting with a reference to University Education Commission (1948-49): The first commission appointed in the post-independence period under the inspired leadership of Sarvepalli Radha Krishnan.
The academia provocative –research articles by Motivated academia – scholars- are specifically ‘Interpreting Hinduism’ using ‘Specific Brahminical Textual Resources’. Such study is well funded to keep a continuity-and spread to Produce such articles.
The academia Knee jerk- supposedly high profile Defending academia research publications and articles by – scholars- for specifically ‘Defending Hinduism’ using the shield of ‘Specific Brahminical Textual Resources ’.
Such studies are sporadically funded to address ‘High fever Palliative care in ICU model’ to Produce such journal articles, monographs, conference events and books: The outcome keeps surface awareness has kept social wave, but does not get to the ‘heart of crowd’ that impacts the democracy – governance- implementation of constitution by tax revenue budget allocations’.
In the miniscule institutions and projects, which are marginally supported by budget support (and related controls, politics and power play internal), the impacting output is marginalized in governance models of implementing constitution provisions.
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