Para Pashyanti Madhyama Vaikhari vani

[kuldipdhiman]

Would someone be kind enough to tell me  how old the idea of four kinds of speech (Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama, Vaikhri) is? I would also like to have the oldest sources regarding them. Were pashyanti, madhyama, vaikhari originally conceived and Para added later. If yes, then when and by whom?

[Nagaraj Paturi]

It is at least as old as Vakyapadiyam. 

Paraa , though not directly mentioned there it can be inferrred that.it is implied subject of the sentence. 

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019, 2:23 PM kuldipdhiman <kuldip...@gmail.com> wrote:

Would someone be kind enough to tell me  how old the idea of four kinds of speech (Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama, Vaikhri) is? I would also like to have the oldest sources regarding them. Were pashyanti, madhyama, vaikhari originally conceived and Para added later. If yes, then when and by whom?

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[hari ram Mishra]

Go through the भूमिका of my book

याज्ञवल्क्यशिक्षा.  the whole discussion is being laid down while describing चत्वारि वाक् परिमिता पदानि 

हरिराम मिश्र:

On Tue 15 Oct, 2019 2:23 pm kuldipdhiman <kuldip...@gmail.com wrote:

Would someone be kind enough to tell me  how old the idea of four kinds of speech (Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama, Vaikhri) is? I would also like to have the oldest sources regarding them. Were pashyanti, madhyama, vaikhari originally conceived and Para added later. If yes, then when and by whom?

[Dr Kuldip Dhiman]

Thank you all very much. Shri Mishra ji, please give the details of your book. 

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[Bijoy Misra]

Pl check the vak stuti in rgveda.

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 4:54 AM kuldipdhiman <kuldip...@gmail.com> wrote:

Would someone be kind enough to tell me  how old the idea of four kinds of speech (Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama, Vaikhri) is? I would also like to have the oldest sources regarding them. Were pashyanti, madhyama, vaikhari originally conceived and Para added later. If yes, then when and by whom?

[Nagaraj Paturi]

vaikharyā madhyamāyāś ca paśyantyāś caitad adbhutam /
anekatīrthabhedāyās trayyā cācaḥ paraṃ param // BVaky_1.159 //

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Here in Vakyapadiyam 1-159,  Vaikharee , Madhyamaa, Pas'yantee are mentioned three sacred stages, teerthas. 

That leads to the question - what has set out to pass through the three stations and what is passing through or to those three stages? 

If that which is passing through these three stages is taken /agreed as the paraa vaak, we can conclude that this verse is indirectly mentioning paraa vaak. 

[Dr Kuldip Dhiman]

Thank you so  much.

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[Dr Kuldip Dhiman]

Thank you very much

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

The Rig Veda 1.164.45  says  “catvari vak parimita padani tani vidur brahmana ye minishinah, guha trini nihita neengayanti turiyam vaco manushya vadanti” (i.e. The cognoscenti know of the Vak that exists in four forms .  Three are hidden and the fourth is what men speak) .

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[rakesh kumar]

There are three types of paraa vaak  "pashyanti","madhyamaa","vaikhari" . "Para vaak is not type. U can see "Shiva sutra". text , where all this mentioned in that. In that book there are three types of vaak . That doesn't count "paraa vaak" as fourth type. Para vaak has tree types "pashyanti" etc. not vaak.

     And I think "vakyapadiya " also describes only three types of vaak except "paraa". Although "vakyapadiya" counts four types of vaak but paraa vaak is "anirvachaniya". complete vaakyapadiya goes to end with describing three types of vaak.

In Shiva darshan philosophy "paraa" is not type. See specialy Shiva daravan where writer opposes Vakyapadiya theory.

There is written in Rig-Veda "chatvaari vaak parimitaa padaani ...."Grammarians comment differently on this mantra , not as four types of vaak... 

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019, 14:23 kuldipdhiman, <kuldip...@gmail.com> wrote:

Would someone be kind enough to tell me  how old the idea of four kinds of speech (Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama, Vaikhri) is? I would also like to have the oldest sources regarding them. Were pashyanti, madhyama, vaikhari originally conceived and Para added later. If yes, then when and by whom?

[V Subrahmanian]

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 4:50 PM rakesh kumar <rk30...@gmail.com> wrote:

There are three types of paraa vaak  "pashyanti","madhyamaa","vaikhari" . "Para vaak is not type. U can see "Shiva sutra". text , where all this mentioned in that. In that book there are three types of vaak . That doesn't count "paraa vaak" as fourth type. Para vaak has tree types "pashyanti" etc. not vaak.

I think this goes well with the Mandukya Upanishad.  It starts with the declaration of 'पादचतुष्टयम्' (सोऽयमात्मा चतुष्पात्) and goes to describe the three pAda-s, jaagrat, svapna and suShupti. The 'Fourth' is not really a paada but the only Truth that is immanent and transcending the three pAda-s. It is called 'chaturtham' only by courtesy, in relation to the three.  The seventh mantra there negates the three and calls the 'chaturtham' alone as shaantam shivam advaitam.     

भवदीयः

सुब्रह्मण्यशर्मा

[rakesh kumar]

Thank sir u enlighten me with "Mandukya karika". U r saying the hidden truth of Vaak and Brahma. 

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[Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri]

Dear Sri Nagaraj garu,

While I am not an expert in Srividya, I understand the 'Para' in the Vakyapadiyam refers to Sri Mata in Kundalini traveling from Muladhara converting to PaSyanti in Anahata, Madhyama in ViSuddha, and finally Vaikhari as it comes out of the 8 locations of the sound creation area from Kantham to OshTa. Srividya Rahasyam commentary has the details.

Regards,

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

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--

Best Regards,

Krishna

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri
Ph-Cell: 408-373-9273

[Nagaraj Paturi]

>While I am not an expert in Srividya, I understand the 'Para' in the Vakyapadiyam refers to Sri Mata in Kundalini traveling from Muladhara converting to PaSyanti in Anahata, Madhyama in ViSuddha, and finally Vaikhari as it comes out of the 8 locations of the sound creation area from Kantham to OshTa. Srividya Rahasyam commentary has the details.

-- You could be right.

But the text does not have those details .  

reading Sri Vidyaa into that text may be looked at as imposition of a different or later thought onto the text. 

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--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Dr Kuldip Dhiman]

I agree Nagaraj ji. I am working on Trik Shaivism, and they claim that it was Somananda who did not agree with Bhartrihari that language has three stages, so he went on to add the forth level called Para. I do not agree with this view as I have believe that the idea of four levels of language is much older than even Bhartrihari. I found a Shloka in Yoga Kundali Upanishad (Yajurveda) which mentions Para.

परायामंकुरी भूय पश्यन्तां द्वीदलीकृता। मध्यमायां मुकुलिता वैखर्या विकसीकृता। पूर्व यथोदिता वाग्विलोमेनास्तगा भवेत।।             योगकुण्डल्युपनिषद्  3: 18,19

I am certain Yoga Kundali Upanishad is a lot older than Bhartrihari. Could any of the scholars in this group comment on this point. Or does anyone know the rough date of Yoga Kundali Upanishad. Thank you.

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[P V S Kumar]

Yagyavalkya Shiksha, edited with Hindi Translation, explanatory notes and Sanskrit Commentary of Amarnath Dixit, Delhi: Vidyanidhi Prakashan, 2015 (ISBN: 978-93-85539-15-2)

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 3:27:17 PM UTC+5:30, kuldipdhiman wrote:

[K S Kannan]

Some typos in the verse.

Corrected version:

परायामङ्कुरीभूय पश्यन्त्यां द्विदलीकृता ॥

मध्यमायां मुकुलिता वैखर्यां विकसीकृता ।

पूर्वं यथोदिता या वाग् विलोमेनास्तगा भवेत् ।

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga-kundalini_Upanishad#Chronology 

The Yoga-Kundalini Upanishad is a common era text, composed sometime after Yogasutras.^[14] Banerjea states that the Yoga-Kundalini text, like many late Yoga Upanishads, deals with yogic concepts and methods taught by Siddha Yogi teachers such as Gorakhnath, an 11th-century yogi.^[15] 

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Some common sense questions. 

How is the speech processed by the listener?  What are the different stages?  

Does the listener process speech in real time or is there a delay?

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Dr Kuldip Dhiman]

Thank you Sir. 

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[Dr Kuldip Dhiman]

Dear Sir, thank you very much for the details. I shall order it. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri Achyut-ji,

Fortunately or unfortunately for you, even this question is already answered by Vakyapadiyam. 

According to VP, when a sentence is uttered by the speaker, the sound produced for that purpose, travels as 'atoms' (smallest portions of sound) and each of such 'atoms' (sound waves produced by each of those strikings  at the sthaanas by the karaNa ) strike the ear, one after the other. Though the effect of each of these  sounds on the ear is immediately lost, their memory remains for a few more seconds. I give the name 'persistence of audition' to this idea proposed by Bhartrihari. (know / remember persistence of vision ? ) All these memories together , at the end of the pronunciation of the sentence by the speaker, produce vaakyaartha in the listener. 

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[Bijoy Misra]

These are physiological questions and research is concurrent.

Please study, please don't live on conjectures in case you really wish to analyze.

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[Dr Kuldip Dhiman]

Dear Vidwans,

My immediate response would be 'no'. We do not process what is heard in real time, if by 'real time' you mean 'immediate'. If a speaker is about ten feet away, their sound would take some time to reach the ear. It appears to be immediate because sound travels rather fast. There has to be a time lag, maybe in miliseconds or nano seconds. So the delay is there. 

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[Dr Kuldip Dhiman]

Could you kindly give us the chapter and verse of Vakyapadiyam where this is said.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Are the four parts of Vak Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari also applicable to the animals who communicate with the means of sound?

It appears to be so because Patanjali in his Yoga Sutra says that a Yogi can even understand the calls of birds, etc.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Dhimanji,

Adhyaya 3 Sutra 17 of the Yoga Sutra.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Dr Kuldip Dhiman]

Thank you Karve ji,

But I was asking about the reference you made about Vakpadiyam. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

I think you are talking about the post by me, not Sri Achyut-ji. Am I right?

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[Dr Kuldip Dhiman]

Sir, I am sorry. Maybe you are right. I get very confused in such groups. I don't know to whom I am replying. Please forgive me. 

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[Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri]

Dear Vidwans,

I went to the pravachanams of the famous - BrahmaSri SaamavEdam ShaNmukha Sarma garu - and am summarizing what I heard here. Any mistakes here are mine, and not his. But I think this has a direct answer to Shri Achyut Karve's question as well. This is not a translation directly. If there is a demand, I can produce that too. Apparently (since I have not personally checked), Panini and others endorse the view below.

This talk of his is part of his Srividya series. Apart from the four Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari, there are a few other steps we need to consider. 

First, there has to be an 'iccha' to speak. This starts in the (brain) chitti, and is the 'kaaraNa' of the act of speaking. This is the 'Chaitanyam' or 'spandana Sakti ' that starts the process of speech. This spandana travels through the Sushumna Nadi (spine, effectively) to the moolaadhaara chakram, located at the base of the spine. It immediately starts rising back up the Sushumna. The speed with which spandana travels to mooladhara has been compared to the speed of electricity (vidyut vEgam), and enables a very quick response to whatever caused the spandana to occur. 

 The process of this chaitanyam starting from Moolaadhaara chakram is called ' Paraa daSa '. (udyukta daSa). From there it moves towards Anahata chakram, and attains the 'Bhava daSa' there meaning it forms the thoughts and subject, and required background information, and inform the ' manas '.  By the time it reaches Anahata, ' बुद्धि ' is observing this chaitanyam, and hence at this stage chaitanyam is called 'Pashyanti'. There is no sound yet. Sound occurs in Vaikhari. But between Pashyanti and Vaikhari, there is another stage called ' Madhyama daSa' (between Pashyanti and Vaikhari ' ) in which it forms the vaakyam in sookshma form combining it with all the knowledge required from memory, rasa, bhava, and other required features. It is here that the language in which you wish to speak, its constructs, etc., (any language in which you are proficient) are selected. The sentence or phrase or word is formed here in Madhyama daSa.  In the ViSuddha chakram, ( at the throat ) it forms sound by vibrating air at Kantham, taalu, danta and Oshta and naasika. The last Vaikhari daSa produces the sound.  This Vak is the prakatana of 'PraaNa Sakti', which is nothing but the female brahman, or Lalitaa Devi.Tthis Prana Sakti is the ' svaasa', or the breath. That is why if breath is held up, sound does not occur. 

So an easy equivalence can be drawn between Vak and PraaNa Sakti. Conserving Vak conserves Praana Sakti, and elongates life expectancy. Maunam is said to contribute to realizing Brahman due to this reason.

For Easwara also, the same four stages are there, except it is in creation of cosmos basis. Easwara has 'sankalpam' to create the cosmos, and combines with Sakti to start the process. This is Para. The bhava daSa for him also is to decide what he wants to create. This is his Pashyanti. The 'how' of the creation process is his Madhyama, and the prakatana of cosmos is his Vaikhari. So our VakSakti is similar to Paramatma creating the universe. In other words, shorn of 'maya' on his side, and 'aham' on our side, both chaitanyams are the same.

This process is explained as:

मूलाधारात समुत्पन्नः, पराख्यो नाद संभवः 

सयेव ऊर्ध्वतया  नीतः स्वाधिष्टाने विज्रुम्भितः 

पष्यन्त्स्याख्यामवाप्नोति तयैयोर्ध्वो शनै: शनैः   

अनाहते बुद्धि तत्व समेतो मध्यमाविदः 

तथा तयोर्ध्वन्नुन्नस्सन् विशुद्धौ  कण्ठदेशत: वैखर्याख्या |

This 'VaagdEvi' is everywhere in the world, in living and non living things. She is in ' Para ' roopam in stones, mountains, etc. She is in ' PaSyanti ' roopam in trees, etc., (all botanical life). In animals, she is in the ' Madhyama ' form. Only in humans she appears in Vaikhari. That's why only humans can speak and express their thoughts. This is also the reason why humans are given ' mantram '. By doing the mantra japam, they can observe the movement of Vak in their body, and go to the ' naadam' or naada svaroopa brahmam. That is Tapas. 

The above explanation is not mine. I am only summarizing here. The explanation is by BrahmaSree SaamavEdam Shanmukha Sarma garu.

It strikes me about the absolute scientific explanations by our Rishis on the minute details of what is essentially a very difficult process to understand. There is a lot more on this subject as many have expressed here. I wanted to give the explanation as per yoga and kundalini process.

Regards,

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

 

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[V Subrahmanian]

On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 7:16 PM Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri <pkri...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Vidwans,

I went to the pravachanams of the famous - BrahmaSri SaamavEdam ShaNmukha Sarma garu - and am summarizing what I heard here. Any mistakes here are mine, and not his. But I think this has a direct answer to Shri Achyut Karve's question as well. This is not a translation directly. If there is a demand, I can produce that too. Apparently (since I have not personally checked), Panini and others endorse the view below.

What you say below resonates with the following:

In the sUtasamhitA TIkA  by Sri VidyAraNya (1.5.9) we have:

ज्ञातमर्थं विवक्षोः पुरुषस्येच्छया जातेन प्रयत्नेन मूलाधारस्थः पवनः संस्कृतस्तेन पवनेन सर्वत्र स्थितं शब्द्ब्रह्म तत्राभिव्यज्यते । तदभिव्यक्तं शब्दब्रह्म कारणबिन्द्वात्मकं स्वप्रतिष्ठतया निःस्पन्दं सत् परावागित्युच्यते । तदेव नाभिपर्यन्तमागच्छता तेन वायुना अभिव्यक्तं विमर्शरूपेण मनसा युक्तं सामान्यस्पन्दप्रकाशरूपिणी कार्यबिन्दुतत्त्वात्मिकाऽधिदैवमीश्वररूपा पश्यन्तीवागित्युच्यते । तदेव शब्दब्रह्म तेनैव वायुना हृदयपर्यन्तमभिव्यज्यमानं निश्चयात्मिकय बुद्ध्या युक्तं विशेषस्पन्दरूपनादबिन्दुमय्यधिदैवतं हिरण्यगर्भरूपा मध्यमावागित्युच्यते । तदेवऽऽस्यपर्यन्तं तेनैव वायुना कण्ठादिस्थानेषुवभिव्यज्यमानम् अकारादि-क्षकारान्तवर्णमालारूपं परश्रोत्रग्रहणयोग्यं बीजात्मकमधिदैवं विराड्रूपं वैखरीवागित्युच्यते ।  

For the Taittiriya brAhmaNam 2.8.8 mantra -

चत्वारि वाक्परिमिता पदानि तानि विदुर्ब्राह्मणा ये मनीषिणः ।
गुहा त्रीणि निहिता नेङ्गयन्ति तुरीयं वाचो मनुष्या वदन्ति ॥

the sAyaNabhAShya is almost on the above lines (with specifying the four stages of parA, pashyantI, madhyamA and vaikharI) without mentioning the  अकारादि-क्षकारान्तवर्णमालारूपं  specifically.

warm regards

subrahmanian.v 

[Madhav Deshpande]

It may be noted that the phrase चत्वारि वाक्परिमिता पदानि has been interpreted variously in the Mahābhāṣya and the Nirukta: चत्वारि पदजातानि - नामाख्यातोपसर्गनिपाता:.  The interpretation that these four Padas of Vāk refer to Parā, Paśyantī, Madhyamā and Vaikharī develops much later during the time of Bhartr̥hari and subsequent authors.  Otherwise, these terms are absent in the earlier works.  

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Seniort Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Dr Kuldip Dhiman]

Excellent summarisation. Thank you very much. 

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[Bijoy Misra]

Today I read the preamble of Indian Association of Cultivation of Science,

the first institution with the "desirability of cultivation of sciences by the

natives of India."  This was 1869.  CV Raman did his work there in his off

time from the financial services.  As he said later his Nobel

prize work had expense of Rs 300.  It is past time when we restrain

from settling our scientific ideas by analyzing philosophy than doing

experiments.  It could be a task worth pursuing for the future of India.

I urge all to dive more into these topics than settle with texts.

We have a storehouse of information to work on. 

Sorry for this digression.  But it is painful to read the material how

occupation was imposed through simple chemistry.

Bijoy Misra

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[V Subrahmanian]

Can someone kindly present the Bhaskara Raya Bhashya (Soubhagyabhaskara) of Sri Lalitasahasranama where this shloka occurs:

परा प्रत्यक्चितीरूपा पश्यन्ती परदेवता ।
मध्यमा वैखरीरूपा भक्तमानसहंसिका ॥ ८१॥

He generally gives a lot of references from the scriptural texts for each name.  I have the bhashya but it is not in searchable format. Hence the request.

Thanks and regards

subrahmanian.v

[Achyut Karve]

The three referred to as not discernible or hidden point to the same process which might have been named as Para, Pashyanti and Madhyama later.  

Just as is the case of simultaniety in the production of a communication in the speaker and its reception by the listener so is the case with Pashyanti and Madhyama.  Though they are two different words written sequentially they are not two different processes.  This is supported by the vartik 'Siddhe Shabdaarth Sambandhe'.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Bijoy Misra]

India excelled in creative work by creating a scholarly model of examining each utterance for its originality.

People did not express what they thought, but what they discovered.  The art of analysis and discovery

was certainly eroded with the Mughal oppression and the British tried to replace it with creating an education

system to prepare people to "read."  So we have the modern literacy, when we "read" others.  We have to change

that to "what we do", when we engage ourselves fully with the thought.  Particularly it is important when we

enter into research with our own motivation than being tasked.  Most of the bad Indology work during the

colonial period happened because people had to fulfill a task.  Indian originality was restored through new

indigenous science institutions.  We have the responsibility to achieve that in languages and humanities.

We have to think deeper and not settle with conjectures.  More unsettled we are, better insight would

come.  We may make small or no advance, but our feet must be grounded.  Let us celebrate the scholarship

endowed to us by Panini, Bharata and Bhatrhari.

BM

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[Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri]

Shri Karve,

I have summarized the bhashya pravachanam by an eminent scholar of the Lalita sahasra naamam, ( by the way it is against the sloka referred by Shri Subramanian) and you say ‘the three non discernible processes are the same process. By what pramaana are you saying this? Please elaborate. 

Regards,

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

We can say that the Madhyama and the Pashyanti are the part of the same process because we can see the Madhyama i.e the effort invested to produce the word) and the thing it points to at the same time.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri]

I might add one more thing: Our seers showed us the differences by identifying each of these 4 stages - Para, Pashyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari - with different देवता नामानि to show that these are distinct stages in speech production. Why do we not agree? Do we know the process even now as clearly and distinctly as we need to know that we can ignore the different stages?

Best Regards,

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

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[Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri]

Dear Vidwans,

I am trying hard to understand Shri Achyut Karve's conjecture here, and basically the need for it against multiple sources of the 4 layer model already quoted by several people. I am not fighting it per se, but to justify such a new model creation, there must be a need and a reason. I have an example I can quote: In the early IT systems developed by both IBM and Digital Equipment Corporation, the network stack was 8 layers. Unix, developed much later, became popular, with 7 layers stack eventually adopted by ISO and now reduced to 5 layers other than the physical layer. The functionality described in the old layer and the new layer is absolutely the same; however, how the actual stack progression occurs has a bearing on the outcome. If I assume Shri Karve is saying similar things for Vak progression, I am still stuck with the problem of not having all the required processes met. Kindly allow me to give an example here as well. 

As Vak (spanda Sakti) rises from moolaadhaara, it attains speed around your belly button (SvaadhishTaana), acquires speed with the required wind. If, let us say, we wanted to curse, the initial reaction may be to produce whatever vile words we can. As the Vak moves into the Pashyanti stage at Anahata, it is moderated by 'Buddhi'. It is buddhi which tells us what to control and what to let loose. Pure 'Manas' would have made us utter all the vile curses, whereas Buddhi would moderate us. When Vak moves to Madhyama, other layered requirements such as which language to use, which intonation to use, etc., tonal qualities such as loudness, pitch etc., are decided. The content does not change from Madhyama to Vaikhari. Vak is executed via Vaikhari in its 'the then' form by moving the various muscles as required. It is obvious that this is a completely separate step since we may need to take a breath, etc., and hence pause in the middle of cursing. From a network stack analogy, I cannot see why Shri Karve would say Pashyanti and Madhyama are the same, unless he wants to collapse the entire process into calling it as one stack. To me this is unacceptable. The processes identified already are qualitatively and quantitatively different in these four stages, so I believe we cannot and should not call the detailed explanations given by the great seers as wrong. It is quite possible Shri Karve may still have a reasoning for his comments or a pramana, but unless that is made clear, I can't see why it is acceptable. 

Best Regards,

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri 

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[rniyengar]

मध्यमा is language dependent silent thinking/ideation. It needs a  mAdhyama which may be numeration, alphabets, specific Svara in music etc, different for different persons. पश्यन्ती is behind this, that is pure perception (devoid of culture dependent/ linguistoc props) as the reality or padaartha or substance would be same for the vaikhari eventhough the worldly language for the vaikhari may differ. About 10years back, Dr.HN Bhat and I had a discussion  on this. Interested persons may search BVP.

RNI

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 11:07:20 PM UTC+5:30, Achyut Karve wrote:

Dear Vidwans,

We can say that the Madhyama and the Pashyanti are the part of the same process because we can see the Madhyama i.e the effort invested to produce the word) and the thing it points to at the same time.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 20:29 Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri, <pkri...@gmail.com> wrote:

Shri Karve,

I have summarized the bhashya pravachanam by an eminent scholar of the Lalita sahasra naamam, ( by the way it is against the sloka referred by Shri Subramanian) and you say ‘the three non discernible processes are the same process. By what pramaana are you saying this? Please elaborate. 

Regards,

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

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BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Best Regards,

Krishna

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri
Ph-Cell: 408-373-9273

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

A communication has two aspects.  The thing that carries and the thing that is carried. The vaikhari  is the sum total of both the carrier and the carried.  In simple terms the message is modulated over the effort.  Thus there has to be simultaniety between the Pashyanti (which is the message)  and the Madhyama ( which is the carrier).  The receiver of the communication has to untangle the vaikhari by abstracting the effort contained in the vaikhari and receive the message.  

This has been appreciated by Bhartruhari when he says that the vaikhari exists only in the presence of a listener.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Bijoy Misra]

Here is a model that we are working on

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