Marriage in Mother's Original Gotra

[Vivek Rallabandi]

Namaste to all the vidvans.

To what extent is the concept of not marrying within the original (by birth) gotra of one's mother still upheld today? Prof. Kane features texts in his History of Dharmashastra that have differing views on this subject -- the relevant page (Vol. II, Part I, p. 471) is attached for ready reference. Ultimately, what is the conclusion that modern-day experts in Dharmashastra come to in this regard? Is there any prohibition in this sense?

I am grateful for your assistance with this.

Yours sincerely,

Vivek Rallabandi

[Mahamaho. Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

To what extent is the concept of not marrying within the original (by birth) gotra of one's mother still upheld today?

                                                                              ---- Vid  Vivek Rallabandi

Nobody is even thinking about it .

Due to rampant intercaste marriages (especially among Brahmanas) people are going even for सगोत्रविवाह ् -  a relative would do the कन्यादानम्।

And in the present day society it may be difficult to the fifth generation of mother .

धन्यो’स्मि

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Adju.Professor , Dept of Heritage Science and Technology, IIT, Hyderabad

299 Doyen , Serilingampally, Hyderabad 500 019
Ph:09866110741

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Blog: Koradeeyam.blogspot.in 

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[Vivek Rallabandi]

Dr. Korada,

Thank you for your kind response to my query. The increase in sagotra-vivaha in today's times that you have pointed out is indeed alarming.

And in the present day society it may be difficult to the fifth generation of mother ---> could you kindly clarify what this means? I was not entirely clear on what you meant.

Furthermore, would you still advise that this principle (of not marrying within the mother's original gotra) be followed, at least in those families that are attempting to uphold dharma? According to Dr. Kane's analysis in History of Dharma Shastra (excerpt attached w/original query), there seem to be conflicting interpretations in this regard. Hence, what is the prudent course of action for one who is trying to adhere to what is dharmic and to uphold the principles of dharma-shastra to the extent that they can?

I am most grateful for your assistance in this regard. 

Sincerely,

Vivek Rallabandi

[Yogananda CS]

Namaste, 

Prof Kane's monumental work is digitized and made searchable. It's accessible at

https://sanatana.in/smruthi.html

Regards.  . . . . Yoga

[shankara]

Yogananda ji,

This is a good beginning. Thank you.

I searched a few keywords. From the search results, I guess the search engine searches only the table of contents (i.e. only the titles of chapters) and not the entire text. Please correct me if my assumption is wrong.

regards
shankara

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[Vivek Rallabandi]

Namaste, Raghav ji,

Thank you for your reply. The question was meant to ascertain whether marriage in the mother's original gotra (that is, if the bride was of the same gotra as that of the groom's mother prior to her marriage -- i.e. her original gotra) is permissible, given that a multiplicity of views on this question has been presented in Dr. Kane's HoDS.

Sincerely,

Vivek

On Sunday, April 28, 2024 at 12:43:39 PM UTC-4 rag hari wrote:

Vivek Ji,

I have seen marriages still happening between Maternal Uncle and Niece (Sister's Daughters).

I do not know if this is what you were asking for.

Namaskaras,

Raghav

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Regards, 
Raghav Haribal
+91-7799371000

[Mahamaho. Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

And in the present day society it may be difficult to the fifth generation of mother ---> could you kindly clarify what this means? I was not entirely clear on what you meant.

                                            ---- Vid Vivek  Rallabandi

असमानप्रवरैः विवाहः  -- प्रश्नः 1 अध्यायः 4  सूत्रम्  2 , गौतमधर्मसूत्रम्  -- विवाह should be with a person born in a different गोत्रम् ।

ऊर्ध्वं सप्तमात्  पितृबन्धुभ्यो बीजिनश्च  मातृबन्धुभ्यः पञ्चमात्  -- ibid सू 3  -- The girl should have   been born   seven generations upwards of

father and five generations upwards  of mother .

In the daily पितृतर्पणम्  I would say ---

1. अस्मत् पितरम् .......गोत्रं वसुरूपं  स्वधा नमस्तर्पयामि स्वधा नमस्तर्पयामि स्वधा नमस्तर्पयामि ।

2. अस्मत् पितामहं .... गोत्रं रुद्ररूपं  ..........।

3. अस्मत् प्रपितामहं ...गोत्रम् आदित्यरूपं .....।

4. अस्मन्मातरम्  .... गोत्रां वसुरूपां ....।

5. अस्मत्पितामहीम् ...गोत्रां रुद्ररूपां .....।

6, अस्मत् प्रपितामहीम्  ... गोत्राम् आदित्यरूपां .....।                                                                                                                                                     

So , I hardly know  three  generations from father's side and one from mother's side .

Outside  I know another two generations from mother's side -- mother's mother and the latter's mother .

Even during सपिण्डीकरणम् , i e  father's आब्दिकम् (yearly death ceremony) I offer three पिण्डs to  पितृ - पितामह - प्रपितामह  -- and , of course , one small  विकिरपिण्ड ( for forefathers who  come down in the form of  काकाः (crows) and consume the same ) .

On the day of mother's आब्दिकम्  , it is three पिण्डs and so on .

Now the question is how to track the seven generations on father's side and five on mother's side -- what is the way out of the impasse ?

Some distant relative prepared  कोराडवंशवृक्षः - it seems he went to six generations (roughly) or so . Then what about the five generations on

mother's side ?

Another significant point -- all people having  कोराड as house-name belong to the same गोत्रम् ।  But there are some families who migrated

to far away places and no connection is maintained -- in such cases we do not follow  जाताशौचम् and मृताशौचम्  -- my father सुब्रह्मण्यम् 

(same name) , who was a घनपाठी and वैयाकरण and  respected as an authority on धर्मशास्त्र , told us not to follow the above said अशौचम्

if there is a gap of  three generations .

We  have a similar आचार  described in महाभाष्यम् (पस्पशाह्निकम्) ---

अप्रयुक्ते दीर्घसत्रवत् (वार्तिकम्) -- if there is a शब्द that is not employed  it is akin to दीर्घसत्रम्  -- it was there sometime ago but not seen today  

i e at Panini's time . Nevertheless  अनुशासनम् by पाणिनि  should be there .

भाष्यम् -- यद्यपि अप्रयुक्ताः , अवश्यं दीर्घसत्रवत् लक्षणेन अनुविधेयाः ।

तद्यथा -- दीर्घसत्राणि वार्षशतिकानि वार्षसहस्रिकाणि च , न च अद्यत्वे कश्चिदप्याहरति । केवलम् ऋषिसंप्रदायो धर्म इति कृत्वा याज्ञिकाः शास्त्रेण अनुविदधते ।

There used to be there दीर्घसत्राणि -- which run for years and these are  ordained (in पूर्वमीमांसा etc.) as they are just धर्म । Today (at the time

of Patanjali ) nobody is performing .

Similarly , some constraints used to be there a long time ago - but due to several reasons they are not being followed -- even many scholars

do not know -- it is no doubt preserved in books -- like a digest of Dharmasastras -- HOD by Vidvan Kale and the originals as well .

It won't be amiss to try to restore the संप्रदाय । 

पुरुषा बहवो राजन् सततं प्रियवादिनः ।

अप्रियस्य च पथ्यस्य वक्ता श्रोता च दुर्लभः । भारतम् 

Rajan ! there are many people who always speak sweetly . But the one who says something good , even if it is not liked,  is difficult  to get --

 even  the  one who cares 

People are after money and mundane comforts -- who cares for  धर्म ?

धन्यो’स्मि

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Adju.Professor , Dept of Heritage Science and Technology, IIT, Hyderabad

299 Doyen , Serilingampally, Hyderabad 500 019
Ph:09866110741

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Blog: Koradeeyam.blogspot.in 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/dee43462-803d-4bc5-a0a4-45c94d0832cdn%40googlegroups.com.

[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

1. On : < Now the question is how to track the seven generations on father's side and five on mother's side -- what is the way out of the impasse ?  >

 

It is much more expansive vision  and ‘practical challenge’ beyond one’s own family tree.   

When we take a deep look at the  term <  uddharet - kulam- ekottaram- shatam>  -  The issue is not about Personal obligation to please ones own ‘ Pitru’s’  .  It is also not on count 101 or 7 or 21  or on either side of the current individual. The issue is on KULAM. The genetic inheritance of ‘ Gotra’ across human species – community / genuswise /Gene wise -  by generation time lines –and cross marriage alliances  is still very far from the modern science framework  or cultural anthropology.

 

The deep research question is about Modelling  ‘Generic Flow of ‘Gotra- Identity and related socio-economic - dynamics’.

 

The question is also on our current understanding – practice of ‘ Gotra- Identity’:: Schoalrship of Book- text- language- Inside community dynamics of practice. The driving question is : How and Why did the Dharma-Shaastra-kaara’s connect ‘Gotra’ to ‘Karma-Kaanda’- Kula-Ashrama- Samskara ? and locked it to ‘Marriages’ – That too more specifically for one of eight forms advocated ?

 

The living tradition of this ‘Ideation-Framework’ still exists in the Social language term and practices:

    ( In Telugu / Kannada / Tamil :  Kula-Gotraalu / Kaula- Gotra / Kulam – Jati – Gotra- sutram >

 

Social Big screen Media presentation of concept:  Explore the link:

 

Kula Gotralu - Wikipedia  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kula_Gotralu 

[This film won the National Film Award for Best Feature Film in Telugu certificate of merit in 1963.[1] Noted actor Krishna played a sidekick role in the movie before becoming an established actor.]   

 

ತಬ್ಬಲಿಯು ನೀನಾದೆ ಮಗನೆ [Tabbaliyu Neenaade Magane] by S.L. Bhyrappa | Goodreads

[Kalinga, a pure common man, use to worship his cow wholeheartedly. On the other hand, America returned Natu use to think of his cow, as only milk and meat giving domestic animal. This novel narrates the conflicts between the values, emotions and ethics of these contrast people. The novel starts with a song on cow, translated in almost every known language, and seeks through finding the importance of values rooted deeply in Indian culture. Artworks based on this novel in Kannada and “Godhuli” in Hindi movies have received acknowledgements at National and International levels. Even today, this novel published in 1968, is counted as one of the epic and incredibly narrated novel. This powerful and convincing novel, vigilant the two contradictions, love and anger, predominantly, for sure!! ]

 

This is ‘Social (Mis-) Presentation of   Practice of Traditional Dharma-Shaastra’ ( kula-aachara / mata –aachara/ sampradaya ) -  which needed a correction – be it in the ‘mahar’ practice or ‘ sati’ or ‘other issues addressed by Social reformists’ as  ‘violation of ‘ Sanatana – (Manushya / Samaja /Kula)  – Dharma’.

 

The blame is heaped on ‘Brahmanas / Sanatani’s (?) ’ who had very little say in the ‘SOCIAL GOVERNANCE and LEGAL GOVERNANCE OF DHARMA SHAASTRA PRACTICE:  Now Termed as ‘ HINDU – HISTORY’. Did the ‘Kings and Society’ listen to ‘Dharma Advise?  Were ‘Guru’s forced to toe the line of King and wealthy, with Sword on their neck ?  Is this not the hot topic of ‘ Constitution- Authorship : Individual or Team’ ?

 

The entire technicality of (VEDIC/ VARNA-ASHRAMA-  PRECONDITIONED ) DHARMA SHAASTRA / SUTRA RULE BOOK  is Inappropriately  marked and presented in Academic – Anthropological- Research and Social  Media as ‘FAITH / Shraddhaa – Jaadya / Belief- Unquestioned Trust – Unverifiable from Body Matter as DNA –genetic/ neuroscience analysis).

 

The Sphinx silence on updating Value Identity tradition of  (VEDIC/ VARNA-ASHRAMA-  PRECONDITIONED ) DHARMA SHAASTRA for ‘KULA – RAASHTRA –VISHWA’  is a serious EDUCATION-RESEARCH EXERCISE and IMPLEMENTATION OUTREACH. There  are serious social generational impacts of this study.

Of course, it is deeply connected with the management of National / Community Wealth, Pride - Identities and Governance / Punishment (Constitutional ?) ; and much more intensely with the  Practice and Administration of ‘SAMSKARAS- SAMSKRUTI :  ACHAARA – VICHAARA - VIHAARA’.   

 

Danda- Niti is Kings prerogative under Artha Shaastra ( Upa-Veda).

 

Prayaschitta/ Pooja Paddhati :: practice – guidance - correction is Guru’s prerogative; use Dharma-Shaastra.

The Integrated practice is  the essence of terms:  RAJA-DHARMA  and  PRAJA-DHARMA.

 

And there are not many  ‘Benevolent ‘Daatara’ to support this work; and much less ,’ scholars who get the big picture and ready to step in for action. [ The last one known on this matter is  mentioned in the book of  previous century -  The Maharashtra- Peshwa who honoured the ‘Dharma-Shaastra- grantha kartaa’ which we are  using as reference today.

 

Society has moved far in the practice of ‘KULA-DHARMA’ :

 

The essence of Arjuna’s question(1-44: utsanna- kula-dharmaanaam, manushyaanaam  janaradana )-  the condensed expression is ‘patita’.

 

This is where I see the importance of ‘Patita- Paavana- Seetaaram’ which saints like Tulsi, Tukaram, Kabir, Ramdas, Tyagaraja …. ‘Hari-Katha-Kaar’s / Puranikas …. Addressed : An effort to make ‘Body as the House- Mandir of Sri Ram and Sita’- like calendar art of Hanuman showing ‘Sita and Ram in his heart’.

A model of ‘Jai Shree- Ram / Siya Rama Hanuman ki’ inside every one.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

While on the subject of ‘Gotra – in relation to Marriage (Family –status): by

Dharma Shaastra and Constitution, The following read may be of interest, leading to the question:  (especially SC recognizing Hindu Marriage as a Sacrament ( Samskara)  and the foundation of a new family (samaja/ ashrama/ kula - aadhara  ? )

 

All Marriages, even under ‘Hindu’ are not uniform in their format. More so, with ‘Adult mutual Consent legal registered marriage’.  The ‘proof of marriage’ [certificate/ ritual] is different from ‘legitimacy’ of marriage.

 

So, What is Indian Constitution stand on ‘GOTRA: Dynamic Identity - in Hindu Marriage solemnization’?

Where would one connect DHARMA-SHAASTRA/ Gotra pre- conditioned Marriage in current period Samskar- paddhati?   

 

URL :  https://www.msn.com/en-in/lifestyle/relationships/hindu-marriage-invalid-without-requisite-ceremonies-registration-won-t-make-it-legitimate-sc/ar-AA1nXodo?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=acf3a0c761a5411a8f34ec5162a94dd5&ei=17

 

Text: Hindu Marriage Invalid Without Requisite Ceremonies, Registration Won't Make It Legitimate: SC

 

New Delhi: The Supreme Court (SC) in a judgement clarified the legal requirements and sanctity of Hindu marriages under the Hindu Marriage Act 1955. The Court emphasised that for a Hindu marriage to be valid, it must be performed with the appropriate rites and ceremonies, such as saptapadi (seven steps around the sacred fire) if included, and proof of these ceremonies is essential in case of disputes.

Justice B V Nagaratna led bench said that a Hindu Marriage is sacrament, not an event for "song-dance", "wining-dining".

"A Hindu marriage is a samskara and a sacrament which has to be accorded its status as an institution of great value in Indian society. Therefore, we urge young men and women to think deeply about the institution of marriage even before they enter upon it and as to how sacred the said institution is, in Indian society. Marriage is not an event for 'song and dance' and 'wining and dining' or an occasion to demand and exchange dowry and gifts by undue pressure leading to possible initiation of criminal proceedings thereafter," the court .

It added, "A marriage is not a commercial transaction. It is a solemn foundational event celebrated so as to establish a relationship between a man and a woman who acquire the status of a husband and wife for an evolving family in future which is a basic unit of Indian society.

A bench comprising Justices BV Nagarathna and Augustine George Masih observed that while registration of a Hindu marriage under Section 8 of the Hindu Marriage Act facilitates proof of the marriage, it does not confer legitimacy if the marriage was not solemnised according to Section 7 of the Act, which specifies the requirements for a valid Hindu marriage ceremony.

"If there has been no marriage in accordance with Section 7, the registration would not confer legitimacy to the marriage. We find that the registration of Hindu marriages under the said provision is only to facilitate the proof of a Hindu marriage but for that, there has to be a Hindu marriage in accordance with Section 7 of the Act inasmuch as there must be a marriage ceremony which has taken place between the parties in accordance with the said provision. Although the parties may have complied with the requisite conditions for a valid Hindu marriage as per Section 5 of the Act in the absence of there being a “Hindu marriage” in accordance with Section 7 of the Act, i.e., solemnization of such a marriage, there would be no Hindu marriage in the eye of law."

The Court also underscored the sacred character of Hindu marriage, calling it a sacrament and the foundation of a new family, based on mutual respect and partnership between spouses.

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

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