Fwd: [INDOLOGY] paratva again
Vineet Chaitanya
From: Amba Kulkarni <ambap...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Dec 20, 2022 at 7:00 PM
Subject: Fwd: [INDOLOGY] paratva again
To: Vineet Chaitanya <vc99...@gmail.com>
From: John Lowe <john...@ames.ox.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2022 at 6:21 PM
Subject: [INDOLOGY] paratva again
To: Indology List <indo...@list.indology.info>
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Nagaraj Paturi
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Raghavendra
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Rajaram Krishnamurthy
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S. Kalyanaraman
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Nagaraj Paturi
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Subrahmanyam Korada
Adju.Professor , Dept of Heritage Science and Technology, IIT, Hyderabad
Ph:09866110741
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BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste Rajaram Krishna Murthy
Asking a right question is nothing do with ‘seeking popularity – rating – brownies’ !
You have raised many points – of complex connectivity to respond, making point wise replay important.
Do you think you are asking the right question or expressing frustration ? That is all I am interested to know.
May be it is time your words should provoke scholars of tradition to pick ‘ right -weapons’ and ‘pens’ for strategic restoring ‘Bharath- Bhashaa – Atma nirbharaaa’.
Political Will is a fall out of Personal Will- willingness and People-Togetherness in ACTION.
1. Pl. Help me to understand what you had in your mind in writing < … but the British wrote in majority, paying Kasi Pundits and learning something in Sanskrit, calling the spade , not a spade, just because , they wanted , their religion to be on top, where THEY DID FAIL. > :
Colonial British did not fail. They succeeded in the goal that was set for them: The Physical Divide of Mahabharath also triggered DIVIDE in Narratives – Discourse- Research related to ‘LANGUAGE- CULTURE- HISTORY’.
Colonial goal was clearly articulated and ‘then leaders of locale helped the British to realize it in exchange for a consideration’ ! This ‘ legacy history’. The Colonial goal: Make India study ‘Veda/ Gita like Old Testament’ has been upheld and promoted.
The postcolonial research has accepted this position of Institutional authority from Cambridge like Institutions’. There is no more embarrassment in ‘speaking about ‘hanuman as monkey god/ Ganesha as elephant god’. The sacred texts of Vedic Tradition, in Language: Samskrutham are viewed in the preferred achromatized lens – using interpretation to suit the needs of colonial machinery funding the research.
The ‘Latin, Greek, German, French, English – serve as European-Lens- Language Models for Panini Studies;
The ‘Prakruth -Desi Language Families of Brahmi’ serve as Indian - I.E/ Oriental-Lens- Language Models for Panini Studies.
Where did the Native tradition of ‘ Samskrutham: Veda Bhashaa / Deva Bhashaa / Vedanga- Vak-yoga/ Vako-Vakya’ Yoga-Samskrutham tradition disappear ?? Why ?
When ‘Panini-Language’ is NOT studied in its Native WAY – MODEL, How can one claim to have improvised on ‘ Panini’ ??
For historic evidence, you can go through all major records, more pointedly the preamble to Monier Williams dictionary ! project. If that does not suffice, the Samskruth text from Indian Pundits over coated with European language translations, to project ‘What is Vedic Heritage’ ! Well this will be total digression here. I wish someone else takes it up with you.
Giving due respect to the work of Cambridge in promoting/ giving a space to Sanskrit does not come as a freebie or appreciation of ‘Religions – Philosophies- History of Bharath that was Mahabharath and now India/ Hindustan’.
2. Pl. Help me to understand the highlighted part of your statement : < I went through His PhD paper, through Mr Kalyana Raman and I saw a deep effort on his part which not only embraced the Panini , but also, highlighted to the earth, what is Sanskrit?. >
What is the ‘deep effort’ directed for ?? What is this highlighted understanding as answer to the question ‘what is Sanskrit’ – emerging from the thesis , which you gleaned ?
How is it comparable to ‘Panini’s understanding of Samskrutham aka Sanskrit’ ??
3. The observation < is there anyone who knew the whole vedas meaning upside down?; not in India even today > is irrelevant for this thread, in my opinion. There is no need to invoke ‘Veda: Meaning’ when discussion is on ‘ Vednaga: Vyakaranra – Specific Text –Teaching Positions, Traditions, more so in a narrowest window !
4. The operative term in the debated rule is ‘param - kaaryam’- the process guidance.
Vipratishedhe is a condition like’ When / If –Then’.
What is the reference for ‘ Param’ inside of ‘Ashtadhyayi’ ?
‘para’ is a ‘gana- pathita’ shabda and occurs in several sutra’s with specificity.
People acquainted with Panini know very well how to construct the scope of ‘Vi- the upasarga’ which changes the flavours of meaning and application.
People acquainted with Panini know very well how to construct the scope of ‘Saptami vibhakti’ as conditionality (adhikarana) or in multiple senses, within the operating frame of Ashtadhyayi structure, which itself is a Voice Primary Grammar- Cognitive Linguistic Processing- Programming rule book.
The total interest of Bharateeya paramparaa in ‘Shabdaartha – Taatparya Vi-Nirnaya’ for Moksha –Shaastra goal and Yoga- Abhyasa ( Gita : 6-44).
The Machine programmers know very well how the ‘jump to’ – operation is coded in application execution.
The Machine programmers know very well that they are no-where closer to ‘Cognitive Linguistic Neural Network Processing and Programming Models of Language needed for A.I / robotics.
The total interest of Techno-Linguistic corporate driving Western Academia to study ‘Sanskrit’ is to digest –dilute –disconnect native people from native tradition, to accelerate ‘ journey towards pre-declared goals’. Soft talk-terms of language do not provide a fig leaf cover to the deeper intent and level of on-going work.
The plurality of current interests driving the total combine of Corporate –backed Institutionalized Academia researching – investigating ‘Sanskrit’ comes from multiple perspectives and expectations. The investment to investigate the target native tradition is best strategized by ‘Pay – Native – Pundits to bend back and work’ !
5. When you highlight ‘John Verbatum style as helping to remember…’, did the thought of ‘Vyasa –Ganesha – Mahabharath scribing ( even if mythical story) cross your mind ? How Suta-Puranika / Kathakar traiditons spread language –content using ‘memory to recall text –accurately’ ?
6. On < While USA is breaking its head to make it a potential language of curriculum and the machines, John likes , always thwarts , following its predecessors; but Parishat should not have said "balanced". Thank you. I wish Cambridge would like more Indians to shine against such oddities. > :
BVP can respond to your observation on its own.
For Me, pl. clarify : What makes you think about US -corporate proactive investments to engage -support
research exploration in ‘Panini Language – grammar’ for several decades, using multiple fronts ??
More so with focused with fronts of Religion organizations and even more specific with ‘Technology Lead
Institutions’ ?
‘Simple Directive: America First’. Simple Goal: Complete the unfinished Agenda.
‘Working Model: Use ‘Control through Technology to accelerate the process and Deliver.
It is legitimate and must in the interest of Business Models of American Corporate to explore new
markets of Multilingual – Solutions; and Sanskrit with Devanagari script happens to be the
one such part of global market ! Now it is expanded to cover all scripts and voices of all languages of
Bharath ( in particular).
For a reference ( which obviously falls out of BVP – frame), you may explore the reports and post actions.
Data Literacy - KPMG Global (home.kpmg) ; Cyber Security - KPMG India (home.kpmg)
Does it mean Nation – Language community scholars should fall prey to serve a remote agenda- cause ?
Does it mean that natives of nation must go ga–ga over ‘self- decimation and self- deprecation of
Identity, and be a pride –shell to guard ‘distorted tradition’ ?
Ignorance is NO Excuse. Innocence demands Learning Effort. Indifference is Self- deception.
Interpretation of Text for Self- justification of Inaction is WORST Game –Play with no excuse!
Regards
BVK Sastry
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S. Kalyanaraman
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Nagaraj Paturi
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S. Kalyanaraman
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Rajaram Krishnamurthy
1 Ayam bandhuhu ayam néti gńāna laghuchetsām
Udāracharitānām tu vasudhaiva kutumbakam
Mahopanishad VI.72
2 A (spiritually) less evolved person says ‘This is a friend. That one is not.’ To a broad minded (spiritually evolved) person the whole world is a family. “It is already becoming clear that a chapter that has a Western beginning will have to have an Indian ending if it is not to end in the self-destruction of the human race...At this supremely dangerous moment in human history, the only way of salvation is the ancient Hindu way. Here we have the attitude and spirit that can make it possible for the human race to grow together into a single family.” Arnold Joseph Toynbee (1889-1975)
3 Knowledge of one’s cultural heritage is important for one’s self-esteem. When people loose their self-esteem and self- respect, they do not do well in life. It is very important for the welfare of our future generations that they learn the positive aspects of our culture and heritage
.K M Munshi
4 Niyatam kuru karma tvam karma jyāyo hee akarmanah
Sharirayātrā api cha té na prasiddhyét akarmanah
Always perform (your) prescribed duty. Action is better than inaction.
Even maintenance of the (physical) body is not possible without action.
Bhagavad Gitā, III.8
5 "India was the motherland of our race, and Sanskrit the mother of Europe's languages:
she was the mother of our philosophy; mother, through the Arabs, of much of our mathematics; mother, through the Buddha, of the ideals embodied in Christianity;
mother, through the village community, of self-government and democracy. Mother India is in many ways the mother of us all"
Will Durant, American Historian (1885 – 1981)
6 "India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace of human speech, the mother of history, the grandmother of legend, and the great grandmother of tradition. Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India only."
Mark Twain, American author (1835 – 1910)
And finally I thank Mr Kalyanaraman who thinks he did something wrong; NO; never; I am unknown; but I have the fervent burning desire lest the old charm gets back. One media not siding the paper may not make the whole media or the university nor the researcher fake sirs. K Rajaram IRS (R) Thank you Let's grow.
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BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)
Namaste Rajaram Krishnamurthy ji
The issue is NOT about the young researchers work or the supervisor.
The issue is about the SILENCE of premier institution on a media misrepresentation of ‘FAULTY RESEARCH’.
The expectation is call for a ‘Review and Correction of the Thesis’. No harm to anyone.
The action initiation needs to come from the Institution.
1. I am with you on the spirit of :
< I have the fervent burning desire lest the old charm gets back. .. Let's grow.>.
I accept your statement :< all of us are the cause of negligence > . Should we stop at that ? Should we all not strive to come out of < shame?> ?
When the identity is sullied by a claimed research coming under the umbrella of a reputed university ??
It is fine to make a call < let's forget the past > ! But is it right to pain the past in black dark strokes ? Should Gratitude to current academia for supporting a ‘research in to the historic classical language’ get tagged to the cost of ‘faulty research outcome as vindication to sully a nation –civilization –religion- community ancestors – prayer language systems> ?
2. I am not any enemy of any institution or person !
Good criticism when it comes from the scholars of tradition must be welcome by the youngster ! and the
institution which has nurtured the team guiding the scholar. Why get in to emotional trauma ?
My education enterprise from a land –space framework beyond Bharath became a necessity to make the
voice of core tradition heard on global platform, where it needed really to be heard ! Any difficulty in it ?
For ‘commercial’- part of operation charged by you, Who taught you that ‘Samskruth needs to be only for
Charity – free ?? All ‘Vidyas’ ( Education) must generate –proliferate ARTHA (= The three meanings :
Wealth, Purpose and Tools to progress –defend). Anyone who does it is a VIDYARTHI = A Student of
Knowledge, A Professional and a Professor of Knowledge – Applications. This is called the ‘ PURO-HITA /
GRUHASTHA- SHAASTRA Sampradaya. My endeavour is Higher Education enterprise to deliver the
benefits of YOGA – SAMSKRUTH to make a Dharmic living . It is NOT a Charity as free discourse –
Ashram – Renunciation – recluse model – dole dependency. If Samskruth studies can not empower a
student to make a good living here, then why teach it ? Those who are ready for ‘ Moksha’ will seek it
when they are ready. We would not be debating here. For that matter, if the credential of Cambridge
thesis were not to lead to a ‘ Professorial Employment’, not even Rishi Rajpoot would step in to Harvard !
As anyone else, I have my personal preferred views groomed by our culture, studies and practices.
Emotional attachment to sensitive topics like ‘ Samskrutham/ Hinduism….yoga …’ does not impartial
criticism or support corrective action. The test is the deliverable : Pride – Identity – Truth – Wellness …
3. When an acclaimed institute resorts to ‘Stone Silence’ when a media report on thesis coming under its
benign umbrella is tarnishing the ‘good name of the institution and its honoured academic tradition’ and a
‘Scholarly tradition of a classical language’, it appears suspicious !
The institution cannot, at least at this stage, wash of its hands by passing the buck to thesis – supervisor.
The premier institution must raise up to the occasion and seek action to review afresh the thesis and
findings. And should be obvious enough: The reporting media must make a public apology for
misrepresenting the Cambridge Thesis !
Has anyone seen /sought a line of action for Honest academic action to uphold Integrity of Research –
Scholarly output ? This is no demeaning of good work and efforts put up by the team and opportunity
provided by the institution.
4. Vak-Yoga is Vedic name for Samskrutham: the Language addressed by Panini – Patanjali.
Vak-Yoga is not connected with Jyotish streams of Late Dr. B V Raman and others.
5. And why bring in my age in to this debate and opportunities at Bharath ? Not a relevant issue at all !
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