The Vedas and the ChhandaHshstram छन्दःशास्त्रम्

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear friends,

Good morning.  I would appreciate help with the ChhnadaHShatram

if you have  studied.  I am studying the text and the commentary

of Halayudha Bhatta.  lately reprinted by Parimal Publications, Delhi.

Particular questions relate to the timing of the GaNa referred to in the

Book IV.  The ideas appear profoundly scientific and speech-related.

I want to understand more before looking for the neurological

consequences in cognition and articulation.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

Boston,US

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sharing an article by our own Prof. Amba Kulkarni:

"Recursion and Combinatorial Mathematics in
Chandasshastra" 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Senior Director, IndicA

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru

BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership

Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

 

 

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Nagarajji,

Thank you for the reference.  I am amazed at your breadth

of interest and memory.  BVP is blessed.

This is an excellent paper in decoding Pngala's work. 

The sutra literature by definition creates a terminology

specific to the discipline and builds on the structure

in the geometric style.  Bundling of information as metaphors

is basic to any learning activity.   Organizing and labeling

bigger and complex structures is an essential part of human

technical communication system.  In oral literature it is natural

and organic, but we don't know the science.

It seems there was a time where the quantitative measurement

of time and space was attempted in India.  It could be a time

much before the dates that the vedas are attributed to.

The Chhandashastra is talking about a unit of measurement

in speech. It would be nice to find further literature on the origin

of the units.  It comes down to design a universe in numbers,

which we see in literature.  Let me write to Ambaji in private to

find out discussion of the measurements I have in mind.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra     

 

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[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

1. Good article from Prof. amba kulkarni ji.

 

2. Seems to me Prof. Misra’s pointers are towards the following exploration related information- materials:

 

-   <   ChhnadaHShatram .. Particular questions relate to the timing of the GaNa referred to in the Book IV.  .. speech-related… ..looking for the neurological consequences in cognition and articulation. > Misra ji  seems to be looking for deeper meaning of   ‘ Chandas: Varna’ – Measure- Units, which  is distinct from ‘Grammar (Varna-Svara of vyakarana)’ and ‘Music  ( svara/ sur – in Samgeeta)’.

 

3. From the Indian tradition part view, to my limited knowledge and exploration, the response to the above question needs ‘support to research lost and less explored insider-and integral root-connections amongst Samskruth disciplines, using ‘Yoga-lens’.

[ These are some of the research explorations at Yoga-Samskrutham University, as ‘Vak-Yoga-vijnana: Prayoga and Viniyoga) : Viniyoga concept , as many times pointed by Dr. Yadu, is less contemplated and explored].

 

The areas to explore  would be :

       - ‘Teaching and explaining ‘Chandas (Pingala and others) – as ‘Vedanga -pedagogy’,  seemingly  lost- less known

           tradition. Chandas is ‘Speech flowing poetically, driven by poets cognition and emotional creativity-craft’.

 

      -  ‘Teaching and explaining ‘Chandas (Pingala and others) – as Practical Vedanga  intra-discipline - Complementary

          Continuum from ‘Vedic applications as ‘Sukta-related framework of < Rushi- Devata-Chandas>  evolving to <   

          Literary frame of < Kavya- Vruttas> seemingly less known- understood tradition.

            It is true  that Pingala ( and Bharata and many others) deal with ‘akshara- maatra – gana’ Chandas; but they do

            treat the subject in isolated silos with no connecting pointers to  the Vedic model. The most  popular ‘Anushtup’

            [eight letter free flowing meter of Ramayana – Mahabharata – Puranas’ still keeps its elusive yet distinct

             connection with ‘Vedic Anushtup’ ( eight unit structure). The  usability freedoms and flexibility are totally in

            different spaces.  

          - ‘Teaching and explaining ‘Chandas (Pingala and others) – as ‘Science of Voice- flowing Patterns, having ‘brain

               imprints, measurable and mappable with neuroscience models’ and  link to ‘Varna- units ( language-

              -voice –primaries ( like Shiva-Sutra-svara-vyanjana –akshara amaalaa’ in connection with ‘neurosciences’ is a

               new dimension for ‘Samskruth-Science research’. 

 

             Many claimed explanations have deep holes and cracks due to ‘ multiple- translatable and trans-mappable

              models’ of ‘Samskruth- Technical terms’. Example: Varna, akshara, Kaala, Laghu- guru, Maatraa- kaala, Taala,’

              are discipline specific explanation and technicalities.  

 

              The ‘meru-prastaara’ is a structure and template. It is kind of limited to ‘one finite –measure model of ‘Varna’

               as ‘ akshara’ technicality, for  poetic flow. This is different from the ‘ Vyakaran technicality of ‘akshara’.The

               binary inside of ‘Varna’ in chandas as ‘ laghu-guru’ are not numeric finites as set-binaries / pairs.

 

               The Chandas : ‘laghu-guru’ are ‘ Svara- Vyanjana’ binaries with deep down sub sets under each category; and

              cross transformations of ‘ laghu to guru / guru to laghu’ in usage.  The neural phonetic imprints are unique and

               different in each case.  In a meterlike ‘ maalini’, six laghus flowing in sequence does not mean all laghus are

               same ‘Varna- measure units’. 

              The sound –flow mode in many cases stays on a different course from the text –script;

               Violating the ‘yati’ and prastaara guidelines and the effect of deviations is less studied; and loaded with  

              justifications for usage.

              The concept of ‘Chandobhanga’  by ‘grammar- compromise of ‘maasha – masha’ is seen in ‘ jaana-padi’ and

              folk lore uses. ‘Delectable, enjoyable’ but not falling to  a ‘pre-set pattern’!

               Simply ‘filmy and folk music’ derivation model of ‘Chandas’ is less chartered waters.  

               

4.  The undesirable models of exploring ‘Traditional  ‘Teaching and explaining of  ‘Chandas (Pingala and others) – as  

     ‘Historic Time framed evolution with the deep backdrop dependency of ‘Tower of Babel Linguistics’, ‘Ape root of

        Human evolution’,  seems to vitiate the well documented studies of ‘Chandas in three traditional ‘Divinity

      descending and permeating Life and forms of Human’- theories and perspectives. These perspectives are

       foundational to understand ‘Chandas’ in traditional frame of  ‘Vak-Yoga,  Vakao-vakya and Vedanga’ paddhati.

       This is also a Global, Universal Human model, where ‘Thought to poetry’ (Bhaava –to – Kaavya) manifestation takes

       place, as in the case of ‘Valmiki:  Shokaartasya pravrutto me, slokao bhavatu, naanyathaa’. Post –Mediation of a

       creative structure and tinkering for embellishment is a different exercise. The ‘Sculptor provides the basic

        ‘Devataa- Murthy’.  The ‘Archaka in temple wraps it with clothe and ornaments, concealing the  ‘True –Vision:

        Nija- pada-darshana’.

 

        The three traditional pedagogies mentioned above, are  ‘Samskruth lenses  providing the base and basics of

       ‘Chandas’- usage and practical foundations seen in the popular floating terminology of ‘Sloka, Mantra,

          Beejakshara, Pranava- (Om-Kaara)-Dhyana’ – Translated inappropriately and carrying ‘short guidance for

         ‘Samskruth- Composition- usage  for ‘ benefit seeking’.  

         The mention of ‘ anushtup chandah’ at the commencement of chants of gita and vishnusahasranaama’ have

           remained lip sympathy pointers.

         The short understanding of ‘Samskruth tradition of ‘Chandas’ creates a further shortened understanding and

         slackness in the use of ‘ Vinay-Patrika: Dohas of Tulsi’ / use of ‘Hanuman Chalisa’  and ‘ Keertan in –

         Gurbani/Gurudwara’. Don’t blame Tulsi or tradition.

         Tulsi, in Vinay Patrika, has upfront given the ‘Connection of ‘Varna’ to ‘Chandas’ and ‘ Bhashaa’ and ‘Benefits’.

         Gur granth  in Jap ji points to ‘ ek Omkar – sat naam’, currently interpreted as ‘ Religion faith in formless god

        pointed by  a ‘sound’, ignoring inheritance of thoughts from Srimad Bhagavad-gita and Yoga sutra: ‘तस्य वाचकः

        प्रणवः ॥ १.२७॥  तज्जपस्तदर्थभावनम् ॥ १.२८॥ ततः प्रत्यक्चेतनाधिगमोऽप्यन्तरायाभावश्च ॥ १.२९॥

 

 

 

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Dr BVK,

Thank you for the detailed writeup.  You have many terms here that I have no

exposure.  I need full technical glossary to dissect the terms.    In case the terms

are defined in the literature, I need reference to them for clarity.

Through long years of practice and lately with the studies I have come to conclude

that Indian phonetic linguistics is fundamentally organic and hence natural.  The

"Akshara" is a natural sound in a human being operated by the vocal apparatus and

the anatomy.   That there are sixty-four independent units of expression is an

empirical observation which needs validation through controlled experiment or

theoretical computer simulation.  It has little to do with the artificiality of the IPA tables.

Sanskrit is not a subset of the IPA hierarchy, but it is the fundamental set for the

human phonetic signature.    All association of mapping one to the other is incorrect.

Such impositions need to be totally avoided.   

Akshara is a cognitive unit in the brain.  It is a brain tool to map the universe in the brain

through the reception of sensory information.   The "lakAra" of Pingala is a unit of expression.

I wish to get help in finding more literature on this unit.  What we know is that we can build

elaborate numeric strings using the unit in sets of four, with an added double unit.

The physics of "doubling" needs further understanding.

While complaining about technicality, I might have used a different technical language.

Please feel free to write privately if you wish to explore the speech aspect of it further.. 

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

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[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste Misra ji

 

1. Thanks for the good points and clear exposition on  importance of ‘revisiting the technicality of Samskruth – Primaries’ and ‘concepts’.  

 

2. The terms I indicated are technically well defined across a set of disciplines and in-connected mode.  The work to do is to bring out the binding thread of all these ‘ technicalities and terms: the scattered flowers’ and make a ‘garland’. It is much more than the kind of  ‘ resource –quote-compilation work which is seen in works like Shabda-kala-druma and vachaspatyam ( The digital lexicons available for ready access; thanks to the techno-linguistic enthusiasts  all-round the globe helping Samskruth studies’. - IITS Koeln (uni-koeln.de) https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/ ).  The lateral work is to study individual  discipline and then starts the climb elevating the ‘ learning to the level of ‘Vision’ integrating the parts to a gestalt of whole Vision’.

 

The ‘Vedanga needs to become ‘Veda’ before going for ‘Upa-Veda : application of Vedic Science and Technologies needing  ‘Yoga-samskrutham’. The restoration of ‘Vak-Yoga / Vako Vakya and Veanga – paddhaties for Samskruth needs a larger cooperated and supported team work’ .  The world of difference between the work going on consuming enormous resources  in the name of ‘Samskruth- Pride and Preservation’ feeds the ‘ food for immediate quenching of hunger (the calculation like that of  300 calories chocolate / a cup of coffee for one hour extra extended work)’.

 

The kind of need you are seeking and I am pointing to in response with pointers is  ‘Restoration of Science of food: covering the transformative cycle of ‘wheat seeding in field’ to ‘ delivering the roasted wheat bread on platter for lunch and dinner’.   It is a clear demonstration of ‘ Who loves what with what priority in investment allocation support’. And ‘why’ ?  

 

First one is ‘Indian model of ‘Project grant by application’ and ‘ time bound initiative’ through the stringed control and life line of ‘audit based renewal’. It is spend the resource for a project. Audit-Accountability drives the work.

 

Second one is ‘ American and Global model of Grants and Projects run by top institutions –NGO /charities like Templeton,  NIH , NSF and the like, through the lead of ‘researcher’ . The model is ‘ By invitation and identification of Project importance to Nation, Science advancement  and Benefit to Public at large. It is invest in a resource in building a project with clarity on ‘direction and deliverables’. The vision-goal drives the work.

 

There are very highly knowledgeable sources  and ‘ People with genuine concerns to support the kind of research you have pointed to ’ in this very august forum;

What they need is a clarity on ‘Big picture’ than ‘ asking their help for ‘simplified bandage solutions for cancer’.

 

Unfortunate though, many of these are caught up by the ‘corporate investment virus’ of ‘ WIIFM’ - the near-acronym way for “What’s in it for me?”.  

 

I will plan to write to you Privately.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Dr. BVK,

We cannot blame anyone.  The very fact that I am studying the vedas after

seventy years of my earthly existence shows my own ignorance.  The pre-Vedic

India including the discovery of  वर्ण as a cognitive unit has been conveniently

ignored by the "discoverers" of "India".  These new people tried to frame an India

with a new history. The modern Indian "scholarship" has accepted this to maintain

staus quo.  There has to be a fundamental change in the line of thinking that

the origin of language is speech and not grammar.  There is a natural neurological

grammar as a signature of the human species and Sanskrit closely approximates

that through the channel of Prakrit.   Prakrit is only a label, it is the human speech

in its many variations of tones, voices and phonemes.  Inside of them exists a set of

neurological units called वर्ण which are universal for the human species.

It may take many years for the world to understand to look into the formation

than wondering about the phenomena.

Please do remain in touch.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sharing one more co-authored by our own Prof. R N Iyengar:

Akṣara the Basic Unit of Time Measure in Ancient India

• January 2021
• Indian Journal of History of Science 55(3):203-217

DOI:10.16943/ijhs/2020/v55i3/156954

• Project: Natural Sciences in Ancient India as depicted in Sanskrit Texts

Authors:

R.N. Iyengar

• Jain University

Sudarshan Hs

• Jain University

Anand Viswanathan

• Jain University

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348501311_Aksara_the_Basic_Unit_of_Time_Measure_in_Ancient_India

[Bijoy Misra]

Thank you Ngarajji for the reference.

Dr. Iyengar did post it last year.  He is one

of the thinkers of the fundamentals.

Lakaara of Pingala appears to be a unit of

event segmentation in the brain, the larger manifestation

of which is a   वर्ण.

I will write more later.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

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