Halanta pronunciation variations

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Vidvans

Everyday 7 AM on TTD SVBC channel there is a parayana of Narayana kavacham, Rama raksha stotram and Durga stotram along with other parayanas for corona nivaarana.

What caught my attention was the pronunciation of halanta by the Telugu pandits. Prachodayat is pronounced prachodayatu the last tu is pronounced as tu in tubhyam.
A variation of this is found among Tamils and Kannadigas who pronounce this as tu in prachodayat....as a sort of elongated tuuu which is hard to describe in words.
For reference please google the video of challakere brothers Gayatri dhyanam.
You will find the relevant part at 9.28 onwards.

What is given in the pratishakhyas and shiksha texts regarding this?
I understand just like anusvara the pronunciation varies from desha based on local dialectic inflections.

I request the vidvans to clarify this matter.

Thanks

Venkat

[Shashi Joshi]

Maybe better to post the link of the video in which the timeframes you mention.

Google search results can vary at times, from person to person, country to country.

Thanks,
Shashi

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[Harissh Swaminathan]

Dear venkatji

As far as I know , there is nothing in the pratishakhya or shiksha which allows the ucchaarana of takaaraanta as tu

It is at best a regional influence 

Also there is no regional variation of the anusvara in any of the shiksha or pratishakhya texts. The variation is according to sampradaya 

Whether that is correct or not is a matter of different discussion

Thanks

Harish

[Praveen]

Dear Venkat gaaru,

First of all, I appreciate Venkat gaaru for pointing out the variation in pronunciation. The reason for pronouncing prachodayaat as prachodayatu is Mother Tongue Influence(MTI).

Generally, borrowed nouns from English to Telugu are nativized. For example, Eng. 'bus' has become 'bassu', train has become treenu, hand has become haandu in Telugu respectively. How Telugu speakers are able to nativize English nouns into Telugu? Because of World Knowledge.

I would like to know that are there any studies on Phonological, Morphological, Syntactic Variations in Sanskrit. For example, Bh. Krishnamurti (2000) based on Occupational Vocabulary Dictionaries, he has divided the Telugu region (Present Telangana and Andhra Pradesh) into four parts viz. puurva mandalam (Kalinga 'Eastern'), dakshina mandalam (Rayalaseema),   uttara mandalam (Telangana), madhya mandalam (Coastal region). Each variety has its own identity. Likewise, are there any studies on Sanskrit dialects.

Regards,

Praveen

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Thanks & Regards,

Dr. G. Praveen

Assistant Professor

Department of Linguistics

Faculty of Arts

Banaras Hindu University

Varanasi

Uttar Pradesh

India

http://internet.bhu.ac.in/arts/linguistics/faculty.php

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Shri Shashi Joshi ji--> Please find relevant audio attached.

I did not get the dhanvantari gayatri where they chanted prachodayaatu but I have something equivalent where halanta is pronounced with ukaara. Tamil /Kannadiga pronunciation sample (Challakere) is also attached.

Shri Harissh ji--> Thanks for your feeback. I am not suggesting the ukaara is a result of pratishakhya, but since there is difference in chanting based on region (desha) I was wondering if there is a clear directive in the pratishakyas or shiksha.

Shri Praveen ji--> I am not worried about people from Andhradesha pronouncing Bus as Bassu, but pronouncing prachodayat as prachodayaatu is a problem because the standards for Vedic recitation are much higher than for loukika bhasha.

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[Praveen]

Dear Venkat gaaru,

I agree with your point. During the recitation, pandit's should not commit such kind of mispronunciations during the Vedic recitations. svara is more important in the pronunciation of the Vedic texts.

Regards,

Praveen

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Shri Harissh ji--> I was wondering if there is a clear directive in the pratishakyas or shiksha on how exactly to pronounce halanta in Veda mantras. (I missed typing the last part which could lead to confusion). Is there any rule that says a mantra should not be abruptly stopped at halanta? Because when I put this question a Swami from Rishikesh said something to that effect.

Shri Praveen ji--> (I am not worried about people from Andhradesha pronouncing Bus as Bassu,) ....Its funny you should mention Telugu people pronouncing Bus as Bussu because a similar quirk exists with Tamils who say bussu kind of mirroring the way Prachodayat(u) is is pronounced in the Challakere audio without the extension of the sound. Never realised that being a native Tamil :)

Yes, the swaras are given importance in Vedic recitation. It was therefore shocking for me when a Shukla YVedin who conducts Chandi homas regularly in Kanchi insisted that the Swaras are not important and that Rshis included swaras so that people will not trip over the swaras in haste and mispronounce which I found rather shocking given clear directives like "mantro hina svarato..." 

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[Radhakrishna Warrier]

I have heard people pronounce the Sanskrit ‘t’ halant (त् ) as dŭ where the ŭ represents a samvṛta ukāra as in Malayalam words nāḍŭ (country),  kāḍŭ (forest) etc.  The voicing (t to d change) and the addition of the samvṛta ukāra are due to the influence of the mother tongue, I believe.

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Shri  Radhakrishna ji--> What you say is correct but I am trying to figure out the original Vedic pronunciation free of these influences as intended by the seers.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear discussants, 

The vowel like pronunciation heard after the pronunciation of ending hal in instances such as त् in प्रचोदयात् is not the same as u in bassu the Telugu borrowed form of the English bus. It is not even the u in upa, or in uttama or in  kanu in kalupu or in kalamu. The Telugu speaking Vedic scholars never pronounce प्रचोदयात् as प्रचोदयात्तु or as प्रचोदयातु That sound is u like but not a full u, it is as if u is pronounced to its first one fourth part only.  Did any one of you notice any Telugu speaking Sanskrit or Vedic scholar pronounce ओं तत् सत् as ओं तत् सतु ? What appears as a vowel like particularly u like pronunciation at endings such as in प्रचोदयात् is the result of a musical / sasvara rendering of the mantra, of course with a Telugu local variation of such a rendering. 

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--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

To articulate the situation better, it is better to say that the vowel like , u like ending heard during the Telugu speaking Vedic scholar's pronunciation of halantas such as त् is the result of the reciter's attempt for the ease of musical smooth landing at such halanta endings, because of the reciter's cultural cognitive perspective that a rendering without such a vowel like ending for the pronunciation of a line ending hal is unmusically abrupt.

The vowel like rendering at such halanta line endings is seen as a musical reverberation facilitating smooth landing.

[Madhav Deshpande]

I have a recollection of a Tamil scholar telling me that this "u" sound is called kuṭṭila ukāra.  Now I don't remember what it means or if my recollection is correct.  Perhaps, someone on BVP knows something.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

He might have said kurriyalukaram - pronounced kuTTriyalukaram = kurriyal + ukaram. ukaram or ukAra has one mAtra, kurriyalukaram has 1/2 mAtra. The ukaram is pronounced kurriyal in specific situations in Tamil. Example uppu - salt - first u is regular and the u in pu at the end is the kurriyal variety. The rules can be found in the tolkAppiyam. However any native Tamil speaker will say this naturally. All consonants, except the makAra, at the end of Sanskrit sentences are pronounced with kurriyalukaram by Tamil paNDita-s.

Ramakrishnan 

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[Radhakrishna Warrier]

He must have said kuṟṟiyal ukaram (குற்றியலுகரம்) pronounced nowadays as kuṯṟiyal ukaram but in the ancient days as kuṯṯiyal ukaram, the ṯ being an alveolar t which is neither the dental or the retroflex t.  This means very short ukāram, what we call in Malayalam as Saṃvṛta ukāram and what I represent in my posts as ŭ.  This is exactly what I mentioned in my previous post in this thread.  This is the last short vowel sound one hears when a Malayali says nāḍŭ (country),  kāḍŭ (forest) etc.

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Thanks, Ramakrishnan Ji, for this clarification.  This is what it must be.  Best,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Radhakrishna Warrier]

Malayalis add the saṃvṛta ukāram (ŭ) to the end of even foreign loan words, just as the Kannada and Telugu people add the full short u.  Malayalis say bassŭ (bus), kāṟŭ (car), laiṯṯŭ (light) etc.  Some people retain the saṃvṛta ukāram at word endings even when speaking in English.

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

A similar question I remember in Maheshwara Sutra why they are pronounced  as हयवरट् etc. with अ added to hals in the Maheshwara sutras? The hals written at the end of each Maheshwara sutra is not counted and deleted. I remember these are added 'a' is added as the consonants could not be pronounced independently. That may be the reason the samvrita ukara is added in their prounciation. Exactly said by some scholars a similar variety as example uppu is pronounced in malayalam and tamil which is different from u in kuruppu the difference being the first two u-s and last u. The same is indicated by Prof.Nagaraj. It is never pronounced as उ which is regular and alwas विवृत. There should be some name in linguistics, which I don't remember.

Thank you.

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Dr. Bhat,

     Though the term svarabhakti is not traditionally used in this context of the pronunciation of a final consonant, it literally means "a vocal segment." I have seen the term "vocoid" used by the late Professor Kenneth Pike to refer to a vocal segment, which is phonetically a vowel, though not a phonological one. In the present case, what this would mean is that in the pronunciation of tat(u), this final ultra-short u is phonetically a vowel, but not long enough to create a full syllable. I like the analogy of the uccāraṇārtha use of "a" in the Śivasūtras.  Pronunciation of consonants, especially the sparśa "stop" consonants, involves two phases.  There is closure caused by the touch of the karaṇa, which in most cases is a part of the tongue, and the sthana "point of articulation."  After the closure, there has to be release of this closure for the sound to become audible.  This release phase can extend into a full vowel, or be a very short one in the case of word-final consonants.  Professor Pike was my senior colleague at the University of Michigan and his book on phonetics was widely used in those days.  When I was working on translating the text of the Śaunakīya Prātiśākhya, I was fortunate to have had long discussions with Professor Kenneth Pike and Professor John Catford, who were some of the best known phoneticians of their generation.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

Thanks Prof.Deshpande for the clarification. हकारादिष्वकार उच्चारणार्थः as Siddhantakaumidi puts it.

In short, consonants could not be pronounced independently. 

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Dr. Bhat,

     Theoretically, the idea that "consonants could not be pronounced independently" is true fully of the non-nasal स्पर्श "stop" consonants, where the oral contact needs to be released in order for the consonant to be audible.  Nasals and sibilants are often treated as continuants.  The term "continuant" is defined as "sounds without a complete closure in the oral cavity."  The nasals are described by the Prātiśākhyas as नासिकाविवरणाद् आनुनासिक्यम्. That nasal passage can remain open even when there is oral closure in the pronunciation of ङ, ञ, ण, न, म. Vowels and sibilants are often described as being विवृतकरण or अस्पृष्टकरण indicating that there is no closure in the oral cavity in their pronunciation. However, in the case of the pronunciation of the Śivasūtras, the dictum हकारादिष्वकार उच्चारणार्थ: is used for all consonants listed there.  Given the length of strings like खफछठथचटतव्, it is impossible to pronounce them without assuming the separating उच्चारणार्थ अकार. With best regards,

 

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

In the video,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_pBeYRbdsk  

both त् and तु are pronounced in consecutive sentences ,  त् at 24:02 and  तु at 24 :07 . 

The difference becomes clearly noticeable.

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[Radhakrishna Warrier]

At 24:02, “paśyat” (पश्यत्) is pronounced as “paśyatŭ” with saṃvṛta ukāra at the end, whereas later, the last “tu” is pronounced with a full hrasva ukāra as “tu”.  The difference between a full halant and a saṃvṛta ukāra is the difference between the last 'p' in the English work keep and the "pŭ" in uppŭ (salt in Malayalam/Tamil) which again is different from the "pu" with the full hrasva 'u' of uppu (salt in Kannada/Telugu).

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

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[K S Kannan]

Incidentally,

I discovered on my own in my student days that

there is a regular, serial, progression from the inmost to the outmost

- from the throat to the lips, in the sthAna-s of pronunciation

of the 5 varga-s viz. ku, cu, Tu, tu, pu.

Has this seriality been noted in any Sanskrit texts ?

(Modern books on phonetics of course provide a picture of the mouth

pointing out the various positions, whereby it should become obvious

to careful observers). But has this idea of directional sequentiality been

articulated/explicated/exploited in any Sanskrit grammatical/other texts

(or even modern grammars of Sanskrit) ?

For that matter, even the pronunciation of oMkAra

has a, a kaNThya at the beginning,

and m, an oShThya at the end

(as do ku and pu respectively in the 5 varga-s).

The 5-by-5 matrix (kAdi-mAvasAna) almost symbolises the progression

from vivRta to saMvRta, from speech to silence, as it were.

Descriptions of tapas (wherein one withdraws from the transactions in the world,

and delves deep into the recesses of one's own being)

note saMvRtAsya-tva as a feature of the tApasic posture.

While vyAkaraNa is a case of a setting forth, an articulation, a giving expression to (one's own vivakShA),

the opposite, the silence, a withdrawal, figures in the latter when one assumes (almost resumes) silence.

(Strictly business. Speak if you indeed have to. Speech is silver, silence is gold).

Panini could as well have framed his first sUtra with Adaic as the first word,

which symbolises what vyakaraNa in fact is - an "emanation" and an "elongation", typified by A

= an explication - of what is in one's own mind in order to convey an idea

- "artha-gatyarthaH shabda-prayogaH"

- the progression being from artha (the idea in the mind) to shabda (in the mouth) [of the speaker himself],

(and even onwards, from the [utterance of the] speaker to the [comprehension in the] hearer).

While all these considerations are by no means negated, Panini preferred to use vRddhi [as the first word],

meaning an "expansion", an "augmentation", an "advancement", an "increase", a "waxing (eloquent)".

The structure of a typical Paninian sUtra accordingly is,

"In [order to convey] this sense, [use] this",

respectively indicated by

the Locative and the Nominative, saptamI and prathamA.

To add a philological note:

vRdh is a cognate of bRh, brMh (perhaps even ruh and vi-ruh), a growth.

(Also cf. upabRMhaNa, samupabRMhaNa - as in

itihasa-purANAbhyAM vedaM samupabRMhayet (Mahabharata usage), and

vedopabRMhaNArthAya tAv agrAhayata prabhuH (Ramayana usage), and

shata-valshM viroha sahasra-valsham (Vedic usage).

Speech is thus the <sam+> <upa+> bRMhaNa

(= indeed a vyAkaraNa) of vivakShA,

an opening of the mouth in order to ex-press, to give vent to, and to expatiate upon, what is in the mind.

(This can also be said to be comparable to the nAma-rUpa-vyAkaraNa (Ch.Up.)

= a morphology - from the amorphous to the morphous,

from the undifferentiated to the differentiated, the nameless to the named).

And the last sUtra ( a a ) is one of withdrawal, a reticence,

once the function of speech is over - a reverse "progression"

- from karman to a-karman, as it were

(a veritable naiShkarmya,  as vAc is a function of a karmendriya).

(That the consideration of auspiciousness both at the beginning and the end,

- with the usage of vRddhi as the first word and a as the last words -

weighed in in the Paninian work is also well-known. That he "sacrificed" the uddeshya-vidheya sequence

in the opening sUtra for the sake of this is, too, quite known).

The last sUtra also throws a hint perhaps, somewhat akin to

"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one has to remain silent"

(Wittgenstein).

I should perhaps have started a separate thread for this,

but thought it can be woven into this.

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--

Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Dr. Kannan,

Thank you for an exposition worth reading again and again.

I am an ignoramus when it comes to scripture and shastra so kindly bear with me..

Its interesting how the vocalisation of pranava starts with akaara (kanTa) middles with ukaara (oshTa) and ends in makaara(oshTa and cerebral)..the final laya is in bindu.

By this it covers the entire gamut of range of the frequency of expression and hence is representative of Brahman for having covered all manifested nama-rupa. 

अर्धमात्रा-लाघवं पुत्रोत्सवं मन्यन्ते वैयाकरणाः

Apparently the key to all expression was kept as close to silence as possible(?)

The idea was apparently to find the most efficient mode of expression while conserving energy/words.

The other thought that comes to mind is that in Ayurveda it is clearly mentioned by Acharya Charaka that natural urges are not to be suppressed.--> A natural urge happens when prAna has been churned up and is flowing towards a pre-assigned destination.

In the case of prachodayAt....with a dirghasvaritaa just before the last t in (yA"t) I was wondering if the Pandits gave a natural continuation to the t with halanta in order to avoid abruptly stopping the prAna that has been churned up with the previous vocalisation at yA".

Is there anything in vyaakarana or in shikshaa that gives guidelines for manifesting expression of halanta while chanting and in japa?

Thank you to all the Vidvans who have contributed their thoughts to this thread.

Shri Paturi Garu--> Thanks for the video showing difference between halanta and ukaaraanta in Vedic chanting. The difference is crystal clear. 

As a counterpoint please find the relevant audio of prachodayat (from dhanvantari gayatri) i managed to catch this morning..the ukaara is rather pronounced in this case. 

Thanks to Shri Madhav ji for bringing up Kurriyalukaaram in Tamil.

You wrote-->"Theoretically, the idea that "consonants could not be pronounced independently" is true fully of the non-nasal स्पर्श "stop" consonants, where the oral contact needs to be released in order for the consonant to be audible."

  Incidentally: In Tamil the vowels are called uyirezhuthhu  (uyir=life / shakti) as opposed to consonants mei-ezhutthu (mei-Truth/Shiva)...

again I am no scholar and just thinking aloud here...

The apparent inference here is that the consonants cannot be expressed without support from the vowels.  All this ties in well with the "vAgarthAviva samprktau...pArvati-paramasvarau"

In other words consonants need the support of vowelisation of some sort to manifest.

Shri Balu Ramakrishnan ji Uppu in Tamil is spelt with an ukara at the end (உப்பு) the pronunciation though is as you say with a reduced expression of ukaara at the end. Thanks for bringing this up. Have been using without reflection all along.

To sum up how does a child whose mothertongue is Sanskrit (and not Tamil /Telugu/Kannada/Marathi) express halanta? Is there a default setting here?

Thanks

Venkat

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Interestingly the repeating s'ishyas did it right by not elongating as much as the 'guru', the original reciter. 

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Ha ha ha..but they were almost all there with Master Yoda!

I have met the gentleman (guru who lead the chanting ) in Shringeri and I think he was over-emphasising for the people chanting after perhaps. 

Interestingly a friend of mine Shri PV Narasimha Rao (of Jagannatha Hora fame) went on record advocating a sharp stop at yA"t. He has developed manuals for DIY homas.

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[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

A late reply - got overwhelmed with various things. 

The way Telugu and Tamil paNDitas pronounce R^i is subtly different. You need to listen to trained Vedic reciters - you’ll get the difference. 

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[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

Sorry pressed send before completing 😀

So is the case with the svarabhakti. And the svarabhakti of Telugu pundits have more Bhakti to the svara than Tamil pundits - if you get the joke. That’s why the end sounds like the vowel u - but I can hear the difference.

There is a reason for pronouncing the consonants the way Vedic pundits say them. As Prof Deshpande pointed out you can’t have a pure stop - nasals, fricatives and semivowels excluded. That’s an excellent point.  I don’t want to go into details here but the rules of mAtra also come into play here, apart from other things. It’s actually fairly complicated - at least in the yajur.

Also teachers will tend to lengthen the last vowel or consonant stop while teaching. This is likely because the student knows they have to start repeating after that and can mentally prepare themselves for that. I am talking about traditional learning not reciting from books. 

I have noticed that my teachers would recite with correct mAtra while doing plain recitations, but while teaching, the end of the sentence vowel or consonant would be lengthened well beyond usual maatra lengths. The recording you sent sounds like one of those cases. 

Ramakrishnan

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Thanks for your reply.

The one I sent was the daily 7 AM Corona nivaarana shlokas on SVBC channel which the lead Pundit chants and people chant after him.

It was not a teaching section.

If you listen to the videos sent by Paturi Garu, you will find  the distinction made. This somehow does not come out in this case.

http://www.mslivestream.com/ttd/ 

Try the above link at 7AM IST tomorrow or afterwards. 

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[RaviKishore Annadanam]

Namaste All,

I have seen the explanation given by Nagaraju ji, and it is same as the way my guru teaches us so far. Whenever the halanta is at the end of the sentence (vaakyam), for smooth landing of svara, we extend the sound. Even in the gayantri chanting, we'll pronounce त् differently in तत् and प्रचोदयात्  .

Dhanyavaad,

Kishore

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 12:46:38 PM UTC+1, venkat veeraraghavan wrote:

Thanks for your reply.

The one I sent was the daily 7 AM Corona nivaarana shlokas on SVBC channel which the lead Pundit chants and people chant after him.

It was not a teaching section.

If you listen to the videos sent by Paturi Garu, you will find  the distinction made. This somehow does not come out in this case.

http://www.mslivestream.com/ttd/ 

Try the above link at 7AM IST tomorrow or afterwards. 

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 11:17 PM Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan <b.r...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry pressed send before completing 😀

So is the case with the svarabhakti. And the svarabhakti of Telugu pundits have more Bhakti to the svara than Tamil pundits - if you get the joke. That’s why the end sounds like the vowel u - but I can hear the difference.

There is a reason for pronouncing the consonants the way Vedic pundits say them. As Prof Deshpande pointed out you can’t have a pure stop - nasals, fricatives and semivowels excluded. That’s an excellent point.  I don’t want to go into details here but the rules of mAtra also come into play here, apart from other things. It’s actually fairly complicated - at least in the yajur.

Also teachers will tend to lengthen the last vowel or consonant stop while teaching. This is likely because the student knows they have to start repeating after that and can mentally prepare themselves for that. I am talking about traditional learning not reciting from books. 

I have noticed that my teachers would recite with correct mAtra while doing plain recitations, but while teaching, the end of the sentence vowel or consonant would be lengthened well beyond usual maatra lengths. The recording you sent sounds like one of those cases. 

Ramakrishnan

From: bvpa...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Harissh Swaminathan <hari.y...@gmail.com>

Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 9:23 PM

To: bvpa...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Halanta pronunciation variations

Dear venkatji

As far as I know , there is nothing in the pratishakhya or shiksha which allows the ucchaarana of takaaraanta as tu

It is at best a regional influence 

Also there is no regional variation of the anusvara in any of the shiksha or pratishakhya texts. The variation is according to sampradaya 

Whether that is correct or not is a matter of different discussion

Thanks

Harish

On Wed, 15 Apr 2020, 09:04 venkat veeraraghavan, <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Vidvans

Everyday 7 AM on TTD SVBC channel there is a parayana of Narayana kavacham, Rama raksha stotram and Durga stotram along with other parayanas for corona nivaarana.

What caught my attention was the pronunciation of halanta by the Telugu pandits. Prachodayat is pronounced prachodayatu the last tu is pronounced as tu in tubhyam.
A variation of this is found among Tamils and Kannadigas who pronounce this as tu in prachodayat....as a sort of elongated tuuu which is hard to describe in words.
For reference please google the video of challakere brothers Gayatri dhyanam.
You will find the relevant part at 9.28 onwards.

What is given in the pratishakhyas and shiksha texts regarding this?
I understand just like anusvara the pronunciation varies from desha based on local dialectic inflections.

I request the vidvans to clarify this matter.

Thanks

Venkat

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Namaste Shri Kishore ji

तत् and प्रचोदयात्  are different cases since the former is followed by savi.. and the latter is the end of the mantra.

So comparing pronunciations wouldn't help here since the context is different.

Regards,

Venkat 

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[Nikhil Sharma]

Namaskar,

Thanks for all your views. I can take out 2 streams out of this discussion -1) That the extension of the halant sound at the end of a mantra was meant as a teaching device 2) For smooth landing at the end of the mantra. 

In either case, it begs the question that how is it really meant to be pronounced given that intonation is so important in Vedic chanting? What difference will it make in pronunciation if the halant is replaced with a full matra (त)?

Regards,

Nikhil

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[RaviKishore Annadanam]

Namaste,

If you observe the tongue touching position, and how your push the air out between त् and तू they are completely different. For the smooth landing at the end of the mantra, it should be pronounced as त् but prolong the sound, but it if we pronounce तू it will be akshara dosha. As my guru mentiones, akshara, svara both are important while chanting veda mantras.

Dhanyavaad,

Kishore

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</block

[Nikhil Sharma]

Namaste,

Thank you for your response Kishore Ji. So, would it make a difference in pronunciation if the sentence ends with (त) instead of (त्)? Not asking about the तू ending.

Regards,

Nikhil

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[RaviKishore Annadanam]

Namaste Nikhil ji,

There is certainly difference between the pronunciation of त् at the end of the vaakya, and  त. I'll try to find the respective vaakyams from rudram, record and send it.

🙏

Dhanyavaad,
Ravi Kishore Annadanam
అన్నదానం రవి కిషోర్
अन्नदानम रवि किशॊर्

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[Radhakrishna Warrier]

I feel that you cannot prolong the pronunciation of a pure consonant like k, t, p etc. Trying to prolong ends up in adding a saṃvṛta ukāra.

What is a saṃvṛta ukāra?

Take the case of the English work "keep".  You cannot prolong the last 'p'.  This, I assume, is the pure halanta pronunciation.

Now compare the pronunciation of the word for salt in Malayalam/Tamil and Kannada/Telugu

In Malayalam/Tamil, the pronunciation of the word for salt is uppŭ.  

This is neither "upp" nor "uppu".  It is actually a very short vowel called  saṃvṛta ukāram in Malayalam and kuṟṟiyal ukaram in Tamil.  Although the ancient grammarians related it to the ukāra, in my view, it has pretty little to do with 'u'.  It can be described in my view as a schwa of short duration.  In fact, it can be prolonged but the prolongation doesn't result in u or ū (i.e., by prolonging it, it does not turn into either a hrasva or a deergha 'u'.)

In Telugu/Kannada, the pronunciation is uppu with a regular short (hrasva) u. The first u and the last u are not different.

In Kerala, many Sanskrit reciters end halanta words like “paśyat”, when these come at the end of a sentence, with this saṃvṛta ukāra and pronounce it as “paśyatŭ”.  This is very different from "paśyatu" with a hrasva u at the end.  Because of the regional language influence, these reciters sometimes voice the last 't' into 'd' and the pronunciation becomes “paśyadŭ”. 

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

The other issue we need to consider is that Vedic oral tradition predates the written records by quite a long period of time.

So this is more a case of original sound....written record.....recreated sound.

We are trying to find if we are recreating the right sound.

Obviously replacing a halanta akshara with a whole akshara will change tonality, chandas schema...meaning, create an apashabda which is considered a sin and the effect of the mantra. 

So the idea here is to see what the seer of the mantra was intending instead of trying to experiment with our very limited intellects.

We have neither the intellectual ability nor the tapobala of our ancestors.

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[Nikhil Sharma]

Namaste Radhakrishna Ji,

Your note makes a lot of sense. I have been pondering over this for a long time and my assumption is that the same issue will extend to visarga pronunciation as well. All mantras ending with visarga are always pronounced as if the whole matra rather than short aspiration. For example, to the ear it sounds like Namaha नमह rather than Namah  नमः. Whether this was meant as a teaching device alone, it sure has translated into practice, at least in what I have been exposed to.

Dhanyawaad,

Nikhil

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

Sorry for typo error यानतानु which should be read as यानतनु.

On Fri, 1 May 2020, 8:46 am Hnbhat B.R., <hnbh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Please listen to the pronunciation of Prof. Thyagarajan in verse 4 of Suryashataka वीतावृतीन् प्राग् जन्तूंस्तन्तून् यानतानु वितनुते तिग्मरोचिर्मरीचीन् all accusative ending न् and you are welcome to your opinion how it is clearly pronounced as नु or न्.

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[Radhakrishna Warrier]

Nikhil ji, in my view, the ancients did not pronounce the visarga as a full ha.  If they did, words such as duḥkha  (दुःख) and niḥśeṣa  (निःशेष) would have been pronounced as duhakha (दुहख) and nihaśeṣa (निहशेष).  However, these words are pronounced as dukkha (दुक्ख) and niśśeṣa (निश्शेष).

Pronouncing the visarga as a full ha seems to have been  a trend developed long after the correct pronunciation of visarga was lost.  The visarga itself might have developed as a relic of another sound in the parent language of Sanskrit, perhaps an ‘s’ sound.

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

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Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2020 1:42 PM

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[Achyut Karve]

Try and differentiate the pronunciation between the न् and न in देवान् and देवेन.  

Achyut Karve.

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[RaviKishore Annadanam]

Namaste,

As per the krishna yajurveda rendition, mostly it will follow the pronunciation as exampled in below.

https://youtu.be/EDk3dfcfOoI?t=399

(Listen to 1st anuvakam of rudram).

Dhanyavaad,

Ravi Kishore Annadanam

<d

[Radhakrishna Warrier]

In this YouTube video, I hear words such as जगत्, असत्, and भिषक् (Jagat, asat, and bhishak) pronounced with a clear and slightly prolonged saṃvṛta ukāra. Please note that this pronunciation has nothing to do with “u” and resembles regular ukāra in no way, as I explained in one of my previous posts here.  I think it was needed for the words to jell well with the style of recitation.

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier 

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