Do we have any indigenous astronomical work prior to the Vedanga Jyotisha of Lagadha?!

[A K Kaul]

Respected members of Bharatiya Vidvat Parishad,

Jai Shri Ram!

I have been trying for quite some time  now----for the last at least thirty years!----to "locate" an indigenous astronomical work through which we are supposed to have calculated planetary positions at least vis-a-vis nakshatras---since it is common knowledge now that Mesha etc. Rashis are not of Indian origin but came from "outside" in the early centuries of CE!  

Even those Rashis were tropical but "after making an Ayanamsha Samskara" they were converted to nirayana---that too very late in the day --maybe in around sixteenth century with the advent of Graha Laghava and Makaranda---and that too much against the injunctions of all the Puranas and siddhantas!  

But then that is an entirely different story!

VJ gives only mean longitudes of the sun and the moon!

As far as the VJ goes, it is undoubtedly a work of about 15th century BCE---since the Winter Solstice was then in the beginning of "Dhanishtha"---Alpha/Beta Delphini---division   and the Summer Solstice in the "midst" of "Ashlesha" ---Epsilon Hydrae/Alpha Cancri---division which visia-vis the "Fixed stars"  of these nakshatras as per the Surya Siddhanta!

Such "conjunctions" were possible only when the nakshatra division as per the same VJ   started from Krittika---Alcyone division--, most probably since the "Vernal Equinox" was in that division then! (Attachment VJ stars). 

The  VJ give yields the mean longitudes of the sun and the moon and tells us just the methodology of calculating mean thithi, mean nakshatra of the moon and the sun, the lunar months, seasons, Ayanas, solar years and thereby five-year yugas.

The results of those calculations do not compare at all favourably even with the mean longitudes of the sun and the moon as per modern astronomy, which means they cannot at all yield even true much less apparent longitudes or tithi, nakshatra etc.

VJ appears to be unaware of  Mangal, Shani etc. planets

The VJ does not touch the topic of any other planets like Mercury or Venus, much less the much dreaded Mangal, Shani and the most dreaded "Kalasarpa-karaka" mathematical points viz. Rahu and Kethu---even by a long pole---most probably because they were unknown in India then!

The VJ is no mean achievement!

I must put on record here that according to me it was really a Herculean job--even to calculate the mean tithi etc.  on the banks of "Maha-Padmasar" (Wular Lake)  more than 3500 years back in extremely hostile climate when about a meter long icicles hang from trees during the Winter season there!  

It was thus really no mean achievement!

The astronomy of the epics and Puranas vis-a-vis the VJ

Why I am  asking these questions is because I have gone through both the epics and almost all the Puranas from cover to cover.  

The Mahabharata talks about a lot of planetary combinations vis-a-vis nakshatras, about eclipses of thirteen days, about adhika-masa vis-a-vis the Ajnyata vasa अज्ञात वास  of the Pandavas and so on!  

Similarly, the Valmiki Ramayana has given almost all the planetary details about the horoscope of Bhagwan Ram, Who is supposed to have ruled for at least 11000 years, and also adverse planetary transits to the "birth nakshatra" of king Dasharatha who is supposed to have ruled for sixty-four thousand years.

When compared to all this information in the epics, the VJ was unable to calculate even the day of Winter Solstice properly, as otherwise it would not have given the duration of a seasonal year from WS to WS as 366 days instead of about 365.25 days.

There is a vacuum for at least 1500 years in indigenous astronomy even after the VJ

 I do not find any rosy picture even after the VJ since there is no "indigenous"  astronomical work worth the name till the advent of the Surya Siddhanta!  And that work also leaves much to be desired since it claims to be a work of a couple of million years old but is actually of early centuries of the CE!  

To crown it all, though we are supposed to get tropical longitudes of the planets from the same, but the results it yields are neither tropical nor sidereal---but just absolutely wrong, which some people call "nirayana" whereas I find them to be niraadhaar! (Attachment SS-Kali-zero-planets)

I must clarify here it further that it is absolutely no reflection on any work or anybody, but just an expression of my unease since I have been searching for an indigenous "astronomical masterpiece" which would compare favourably with the DE431 of JPL/NASA since while trying to "calculate" the dates of the Mahabharata war or Rama -Ravana Yuddha, most of the scholars  arrive at their desired dates only though that ephemeris---the latest one from JPL/NASA!

For ready reference, a copy of the VJ with the commentary by Dr. K V Sarma is attached.

With regards and Jai Shri Ram!

A K Kaul

[Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri]

Sir, 

It would be great idea to see you argue with Shri Nilesh Oak and Miss Rupa Bhaty on the archaeo-astronomy discussion that is currently taking place here. Your question might be either answered or you would have refuted their argument depending on the outcome. I am keen to read the discussion, though, without prejudice to either side.

Best Regards,

Krishna

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri
Ph-Cell: 408-373-9273

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[rupa bhaty]

Thank you Krishna Kumar ji,

I am aware of Shri Kaul's works. 

1. I can only argue if I am presented with the particular words uttarāyaṇa and dakṣiṇayana, since I know when they came into being and that itself is a long thread. Both these words are clearly absent In Rg and Yajur VJ. Uddagatau and dakṣiṇeti primarily means north and south of equator. (see attachments)

2. What is concluded by gharmavṛddhī? In Bangla we say Ghaam for sweat. Can this be experienced on WS day? No, it can only be experienced when the sun has reached northern hemisphere.

3. Why Maaghashuklaprapannasya- paushakrishna sampinaH verse comes in between Vishuva verses, and why there are no verses with solstices which calculate the days. The base argument will remain of Naadi yantra, but that can work for both, i.e., equinox to equinox or solstice to solstice, for any 6 months, but only if Solstices are present in VJ, then only they will work for solstices to solstices.

4. VJ is a text of Vedas itself. Therefore, Samvatsara (samvatsara vai agni-vaishvanara T. Br), and (Samvatsara vai prajaapati, all Brahmanas) Prajaapati are related to Agni-Gharma-Vasanta.

If I have to argue on each verse then that will culminate into a book. Right now I am already engaged in writing two books and blogs with every day new discoveries. Please deem this as the last mail.

So I will leave it to all here at this parishad to have manthan. Again I will request not to read any commentaries or english translations. (I am very specific with words and their meanings) 

Best wishes and regards to all. 

Rupa

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[A K Kaul]

Shri Krishna Kumar Pillalamarriji,

Shri Krishnaya Namah!

<It would be great idea to see you argue with Shri Nilesh Oak and Miss Rupa Bhaty on the archaeo-astronomy discussion that is currently taking place here. >

Thank you for your suggestion.  

But then I just don't know as to what is there to be argued about!

Mahabharata war:

Almost every scholar is "proving" or "has already proved" the "most exact" date of the Mahabharata war right from about 5561 BCE to 900 BCE!  

And all of them are "arguing" on the basis of JPL/NASA DE431 and so on either directly or indirectly!

Obviously, not all these dates of the "mother of all battles" can be correct though all of them may be wrong!

So what have I to argue about and with whom!

As an alternative, since it is "impossible" that all these scholars can be wrong, there is every possibility that all of them are right! 

That means there has been a "Mahabharata war" every few centuries and all  of them have been discussed in detail by Krishna Dvaipayana Vedavyasa in his "Shata-saahasriya-Samhitaa''!

That again means that there is nothing to be argued about by me!

Rama-Ravana Yuddha:

Similarly, there is another "fierce battle" going on about  the date of Rama-Ravana-Yuddha!  

It is supposed to have taken place anywhere between  12200 BCE and 4000 BCE---though Aadi Kavi Valmiki has claimed in the beginning and the end of the VR that Bhagwan Ram had ruled for 11000 years and later it was confirmed by Krishnadwaipayana Veda-vyasa in his "Mahabharata"!

Obviously, again. that "confirmation" in the Mbh too must have happened after about 900000 years of the Valmiki Ramayana and even after the Rama-Ravana-Yuddha was over!!  (Three attachments Ramarajya-VRI, VRII and the Mbh-Kum)!!

So just possible that all those scholars are wrong or again, as an alternative, may be  all of them are right!

That means there is nothing for me to argue about in that case as well!

But then a  redoubtable scholar Shri Vinay Jha  says that the "Ram-Ravana" war had really taken place  in the fag end of Treta-yuga. 

And Shri Jha has "proved"  it in his book "Itihas ka Upahas" that Tretayug was really around 900000 years back!

(Anybody can download that book from इतिहास का उपहास)

That could also mean that Ram-Ravana-Yuddha has been taking place every few thousand years!

Again, thus,  there is nothing for me to argue about the same either!

Surya Siddhanta updation etc. etc.:

Same is the case about the Surya Siddhanta!

It claims in the very first chapter to be a work of the fag end of Krita Yuga which was around about two million years back as per the same "divine" work!

After all, Maya-Mahasura, the father-in-law of the world-famous Rakshasa king Ravana, who is the "narrator" of such a great work, viz. the SS  could not tell a lie, especially since his son-in-law Ravana is supposed to have compiled a "masterpiece" of "Vedic astrology" viz. Ravana Samhita!

If some scholars claim that the SS was "updated" every few thousand years and the last but one updating was done in 12000 BCE and then 2900 BCE how can a small fry like me argue about all these "ultimate truths"!

So, in a nutshell,  for me there is nothing to  argue about the SS either!

The tail piece!

The tail piece, however, is that an out and out Agnostic----maybe even an "Atheist" like the well known Cosmologist  Stephen Hawking, who does not have any soft corner for the Biblical dictum that "god created the world in 4004 bce" either, cried from  housetops "Homo Sapiens  originated in sub-Saharan Africa around 200000 BC."

He also claims in the same breath, "Written language dates back only to about 7000 BC, the product of  societies centred around the cultivation of grain."

Stephen Hawking has said further, in a very serious note!, "(Some of the oldest written inscriptions concern the daily ration of beer allowed to each citizen)".  ----Even the brackets of this statement are by Setephen Hawking himself and not mine! (Attachment -the age of Homo-Sapiens--Hawking" which is a page from Hawking's last work "The Grand Design".i

The most ironical part of this entire mail!

The most ironical part is that I cannot argue about even such "hard to digest" but unassailable "cosmological" or "geographical" facts either!

And, in spite of all the above "arguments", 

With regards and Shri Krishnaya Namah!

A K Kaul

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 6:45 PM Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri <pkri...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[A K Kaul]

Sushri Rupa Bhaty ji,

Jai Shri Ram!

<uttarāyaṇa and dakṣiṇayana, since I know when they came into being and that itself is a long thread. Both these words are clearly absent In Rg and Yajur VJ. Uddagatau and dakṣiṇeti primarily means north and south of equator. (see attachments)>

  The actual mantra is घर्म वृद्धिरपां प्रस्थः क्षपा ह्रास उदग्गतौ || दक्षिनेतौ विपर्यस्तौ  षन्मुहुर्त्यय्नेन् तु    

उदग्गतौ  has been defined as "half year from the Winter to the Summer Solstice and "दक्षिणेति as   दक्षिणायन as the sun's progress through south of equator" in the attachment that you enclosed.  Thus the words ''Uttarayana and Dakshinayana" are very much there in the Rik and Yajusha Jyotisham even if in the form of Udag-gatau and Dakshineti!

For further ready reference, a few pages from Yajusha-Jyotisham, together with a Sanskrti commentary by Somakar---with a gloss by Sudhakar Dwivedi, the well known Samskrit scholar from Varanasi, are attached.  Both Somakar and Dwivedi have translated Udagayanam as Uttarayanam and Dakshineti as Dakshinaayana.

" षडुदङ्ङ्ेति " means six months of Uttarayana as per the Vedic lore also!

The attachment "Chhandogya Upanishad-udanneti" are excerpts from the Chhandogya Upanishad, where "udag-eti" has been referred to as the Uttarayana.  The well known Aadi Shankara has specifically indicated it as उत्तराम् दिशमेति सविता ...उत्तरायण देवतां 

<Ghaam for sweat. Can this be experienced on WS day? No, it can only be experienced when the sun has reached northern hemisphere.>

As per the attachment "VJ-gharma=day-kshapa=night" Both Somakar and Sudhakar  Dwivedi have translated "gharmavriddhir" as "घर्म इति अहर्नाम" and "क्षपा इति शर्वरी ".  It has been clarified further that तदा प्रभृति दिनानि वर्धन्ते रात्रिश्चापचीयते which means Winter Solstice being the shortest day of the year, the day goes on increasing from there and nights decreasing!  

Yes, the days really start increasing from the day of WS (in spite of your reservations!) even if just by a second of time (which would mean two and a half pal पल in olden days).

This will be clear from the two attachments "sunrise-sunset-dinmaan-for-Delhi" and "sunrise-sunset-dinmaan-for-Greenwich" that whether it was on the WS day of 2020 or whether it is going to be the WS day of 2021, the day did and will increase even if by just a second of time for Delhi but 4 seconds for Greenwich on that date! So Acharya Lagadha was very right when he had said घर्म वृद्धिः .

Similarly, his statement दक्षिनेतौ विपर्यस्तौ  is also correct as will be clear from the same attachments that from June 21, 2020, the "dinmaan" did decrease by 2 seconds in Delhi and by about five seconds for Greenwich!

<3. Why Maaghashuklaprapannasya- paushakrishna sampinaH verse comes in between Vishuva verses, and why there are no verses with solstices which calculate the days. The base argument will remain of Naadi yantra, but that can work for both, i.e., equinox to equinox or solstice to solstice, for any 6 months, but only if Solstices are present in VJ, then only they will work for solstices to solstices.>

As clarified above, both the Solstices are very much present in the VJ and in fact, the five year Yuga of the VJ starts from the Winter Solstice and ends at fifth Winter Solstice.  Similarly, each solar year of the VJ ranges from one Winter Solstice to another, as will be clear from the attachment "VJ-year-WS-to WS" calculated by the one and only S B Dikshit in his Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra! (Though the attachment is in English, and since you have reservations for any commentary in that language, even if it was by none other than Dr K V Sarma, the famous astronomer of South India, I may mention here that Dikshit had originally written his magnum opus in Marathi, which was later translated in to English!) Thus the two equinoxes fall in between the two Solstices.  That is what exactly the Panchasiddhantika also  has said.

उदगयनं मकरादावृतवः शिशिरादयः.   (Pl. see the attachment "PSUdagayana".)  Similarly, at another place the same PS has said  मेष तुलादौ विषुवं and since the VJ year ranges from WS to WS, naturally, the two equinoxes have to be between them!

While discussing the gamut of "udagayana" vis-a-vis Makara Sankranti, K V Sarma (in the PS) has referred to the VJ and rued the present-day situation that we are going against the Injunctions of the Vedas and the VJ by opting for niraayna months and reciting even our "samkalpa" against the Vedic injunctions!!

<Why Maaghashuklaprapannasya- paushakrishna sampinaH verse comes in between Vishuva verses, and why there are no verses with solstices which calculate the days. The base argument will remain of Naadi yantra, but that can work for both, i.e., equinox to equinox or solstice to solstice, for any 6 months, but only if Solstices are present in VJ, then only they will work for solstices to solstices.

4. VJ is a text of Vedas itself. Therefore, Samvatsara (samvatsara vai agni-vaishvanara T. Br), and (Samvatsara vai prajaapati, all Brahmanas) Prajaapati are related to Agni-Gharma-Vasanta.>

The below pasting from "JPL Horizons" is very eloquent!  The exact timing of the WS in 2020 was December 21, 10-3-28 TDT.  

Date__(UT)__HR:MN       R.A._(a-appar)_DEC.            ObsEcLon     ObsEcLat

 2020-Dec-21 10:00     17 59 59.563556 -23 26 13.66887 269.9983315  -0.0002108

 2020-Dec-21 10:01     17 59 59.748563 -23 26 13.66891 269.9990388  -0.0002107
 2020-Dec-21 10:02     17 59 59.933569 -23 26 13.66894 269.9997460  -0.0002107
 2020-Dec-21 10:03     18 00 00.118576 -23 26 13.66895 270.0004533  -0.0002107
 2020-Dec-21 10:04     18 00 00.303582 -23 26 13.66894 270.0011606  -0.0002107
 2020-Dec-21 10:05     18 00 00.488589 -23 26 13.66892 270.0018678  -0.0002107
 2020-Dec-21 10:06     18 00 00.673596 -23 26 13.66889 270.0025751  -0.0002107

The declination of the sun went on increasing from -23° 26' 13".66887  at 10-00-00 hrs (UTC) when the longitude of the sun was 269°.9983315 degrees to 

-23° 16' 13".66895 and as soon as the solar longitude crossed 270.00 degrees at 10-04-00 (UTC) the declination of the sun came down to 23° 26' 13".66894!

Thus it was maximum southern Declination of the sun at the time of the exact timing of the WS   and therefrom it started coming down even if by a fraction 

of an arcsecond.  It means in no uncertain terms that the declination had started "turning North" which in Samskrit means Uttarayana.

So what other  ''Uttarayana" are you expecting at the time of Winter solstice?

It will be quite opposite to the same if we check the position of declination of the sun vis-a-vis its longitude at the time of "Dakshinayana" from the same

''Horizons''.

Thus the VJ is talking sense in terms of the two Solstices, and the two Vishuvas!

< VJ is a text of Vedas itself. Therefore, Samvatsara (samvatsara vai agni-vaishvanara T. Br), and (Samvatsara vai prajaapati, all Brahmanas) Prajaapati are
 related to Agni-Gharma-Vasanta.>

VJ is surely a text of the Vedas and that is why its Samvatsara ranges form one WS to another because at several places, in the Vedas, the definition of year
 has been given as two Ayanas!  Pl. see the attachment by Sammod-Acharya!

I am really glad that you have raised all these points about the VJ so that I could give a detailed clarification about the same.

I have uploaded  Samskrit commentary by Somakar and Sudhakar Dwivedi to mediafire and can be downloaded from the following link

https://www.mediafire.com/file/x5rc1dblbvz4x9s/YajushaJyotisham-SudhakarDwivedi1908.pdf/file

VJ predates the Mahabharata as per Sudhakar Dwivedi and S B Dikshit

As per the attachment "VJ-predates-Mahabharata", Sudhakar Dwivedi has expressed his view that since the Mahabharatat has followed a seasonal and annual system of the five year yuga of the VJ, it is clear that the VJ ppedates Mahabharata!  In other words, Mahabharata war cold have taken place after the VJ had been "compiled"!

  <So I will leave it to all here at this parishad to have manthan. Again I will request not to read any commentaries or english translations. (I am very specific with words and their meanings)>   

There is a really comprehensive Sanskrit commentary of the Vedanga Jyotisha by Shivraj Acharya Kaundinyana of Nepal  available in printed version and it has been published by Chaukhamba Vidyabhavan, Varanasi.

Some pages from the same are attached for perusal and they contain really caustic comments about the Surya Siddhanta and  the entire Hindu fraternity has been chided by hims for treating the SS as a shastra since it is actually a work by some ''outsider''!

With regards and Jai Shri Ram!

A K Kaul 

PS

This message had to be resent after deleting one of the attachments!

AKK

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