Refutation of 12209 BCE Dating of Ramayana: Part 1 of 10

[Raja Roy]

Respected members,

I am pleased to share Part 1 of 10 of my blog refuting Nilesh Oak's dating of Ramayana to 12209 BCE.

Refutation of Nilesh Oak’s Astronomical Dating of Ramayana to 12209 BCE | by Dr. Raja Ram Mohan Roy | Apr, 2021 | Medium

Best regards,

Raja

[Nityanand Misra]

Dear Dr. Roy

Thank you for the link. Like your previous article, this one is also very well-written. I look forward to the rest of the series. I also look forward to specific responses by Sh. Nilesh Oak.

Thanks, Nityananda

[R. N. iyengar]

"Indian civilization is grounded in intellectual inquiry and we have survived numerous assaults on our civilization simply because of the strength of our knowledge systems. However, at present, I observe that many intellectuals have fallen prey to bogus claims. As I write these articles, Prachyam is involved in the production of ten documentaries that intend to correct the historical inaccuracies of currently accepted Indian history [1]. Three of these episodes seem to be based on Oak’s claims, one of them being the claim that the Rāmāyaṇa can be dated back to 12209 BCE. Without the careful vetting of these claims by outside observers, the fallout from such documentaries can be dire — both to the viewers and the producers, and even more so to the Indian intellectual tradition."

Dr. Roy, You have said it all.  Indirectly this is what I was pointing out in my BVP posts of 17th, 19th ...... 25th March

https://groups.google.com/g/bvparishat/c/cmkVuykdBMM/m/dvKKo29CAgAJ

Your observation applies equally well to several others who do not consider that rational and scientific means are important in Indic historical chronology studies.  

Keep up your good work. All the best...

RN Iyengar

[rupa bhaty]

Dear all,

Whatever was good in this refutation was the compile-ups of screenshots of Nilesh Oak's works in the blog.

And that's all. It appears to me that there is no need for any responses since one cannot inculcate astronomy sciences in every individual here. 

Best wishes for scientific comprehension.

And best regards.

Rupa

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[Raghuram RP]

May be a naive question , about Ram Setu (as written in the article) 

How do we account for 100 yojanas distance from Rameshwaram to present Lanka, Of course there is no direct conversion between yojanas and miles or kilometers 

Is it generally accepted that the modern Lanka is same as the Lanka of Ramayana times 

Regards
Raghuram

www.purnapramati.in
नाहं कर्ता हरिः कर्ता
nAham karta harih karta

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[rupa bhaty]

Namaste Raghuram ji,

It's not a naive question at all. It's a valid question since 100 yojana was not used as an approximation "upamāna" for the huge distance but Rāmāyaṇa has given the width in yojana also. 

We cannot account for 100 yojana distance from Rameshwaram to today's Sri Lanka which is just 125 km away that too in the South East direction.  

One can say that it is now generally accepted for Sri Lanka to be Rāmāyaṇa's Lanka. But as per the description of Rāmāyaṇa Lanka lay south of the Indian peninsula. 

regards

Rupa

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[Raja Roy]

It will be explained in Part 7 of 10- A bridge to NOWHERE — Fudging the location of Lanka. (to be published on June 05, 2021)

Raja

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[Nityanand Misra]

On Sunday, 25 April, 2021 at 4:09:32 pm UTC+5:30 rupabhaty16 wrote:

Dear all,

Whatever was good in this refutation was the compile-ups of screenshots of Nilesh Oak's works in the blog.

Dear Rupa Bhaty Ji

This was also part 1 of 10, so I think we have to be fair to Dr. Roy and read all the parts before jumping to conclusions. 

 

It appears to me that there is no need for any responses since one cannot inculcate astronomy sciences in every individual here. 

Astronomy is a very broad field, and I doubt if anybody on this forum is a master of all subfields of Astronomy. What specific aspects/fields/concepts of astronomy are you referring to? I wonder if the astronomy involved in your work or that of Sh. Oak is really that difficult to comprehend.   

Thanks, Nityananda 

[Bijoy Misra]

Valmiki talks about the Mahendra mountains.

The mahendra mountains(mahendragiri)  still exist on the east coast (check Google maps)

Lanka would be 800 miles on air.

Dandakaraya (exists now) is to northwest. , Panchavati to further west.

On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 6:57 AM Raghuram RP <raghu...@purnapramati.in> wrote:

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[A K Kaul]

Sushri Rupa Bhatyji,

Jai Shri Ram!

< And that's all. It appears to me that there is no need for any responses since one cannot inculcate astronomy sciences in every individual here.>

IMHO, fixing the date of Incarnation of Bhagwan Ram or Rama-Ravana-Yuddha etc. is like the famous story of कीलोत्पाटी  वानरः !  

And there is no need of involving any astronomy in the same!

I have scrupulously tried to avoid any discussion about it but now that it is already going on, I have just a couple of questions to all the scholars, including you,  who have "fixed" the dates of Incarnation of Bhagwan Ram or  of Rama-Ravana Yuddha etc. whether about 4000 BCE or about 7000 BCE or even about 12200 BCE!

As per the Valmiki Ramayana 

1. King Dasharatha is  supposed to have ruled for 60000 years before he was blessed with a son.  (Attachment Dasharatha 600000-years'wait)!  What are your views about the same especially since he claimed that his ''natal moon was besieged by malefic planets like Sun, Mars and Rahu etc? (Ayodhya-Kanda-4/8-19). When was king Dasharatha born?

2.  Bhagwan Ram is supposed to have ruled for eleven thousand years.  What is all the more surprising, is that the epic Mahabharata itself has confirmed that Bhagwan Ram did rule for 11000 years! (Attachment Rama-Rajya 11000 years)

3. My simple question is that if He had Incarnated in around 12000 BCE and is supposed to have ruled for 11000 years, how could the Mahabharata war have taken place in 5561 BCE or even 3102 BCE or even in about 1000 BCE since till then it was Rama-Rajya!

4. As per those scholars, who claim that Bhagwan Ram had Incarnated in about 4000 BCE, Rama Rajya will last till at least 8000 AD, and as per those scholars who claim that He had Incarnated in about 7000 BCE, Rama-Rajya will last till about 5000 AD!

5. Did Mahabharata war take place during Rama-Rajya or was Kuru-vamsha really the ruler  then?

In fact it just makes a mockery of all our Puranas etc. which claim that Kaliyuga started  in 1431 or 1531 BCE! (Attachment Pauranic-Kaliyuga)

6. Aryabhatiya or SS Kaliyuga  has already been declared as ''imaginary" by none other than the Calendar Reform Committee itself!

(Attachment CRC-Kaliyuga-imaginary!)

7. There are quite a few references in the VR to much later events of "Kaliyuga" like Janmejaya, Dundhumar, Shakas and Yavanas, and (Gautama the) Buddha-----who has been likened to a thief (for having condemned the Vedas).  

8. That means there have been quite a few additions to the original VR if it was really "compiled" about 12000 years back!  What are your views about the same?

It is not a reflection on anybody's scholarship, but it looks like that we are washing our dirty linen in public unknowingly under the impression of ''proving our scholarship"!!

With regards and Jai Shri Ram!

A K Kaul

On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 4:09 PM rupa bhaty <rupab...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[rupa bhaty]

Dear Nityananda ji,

I see that you have started moderating very sensitive issues of Astronomy claims. I had already posted the link to Mr. Roy's refutation of my claim of 10,000 BCE of Uttara Phalguni epoch. To begin with, that was the simplest effort to bring forth the truth of samvatsara in Brahmanas which are extensions of Vedas. When I asked Mr. Roy to refute the refutation done by me he had said he doesn't bother and further warned me to be ready for another refutation. That is not good in favor of science.

I carefully chaffed out both the uttaraphalguni phrases of different Brahmanas and showed that we will have to go by internal evidence of the text in question and have shown them in yet another blog. 

https://rupabhaty.home.blog/2021/03/28/epoch-of-uttaraphalguni-10000-bce-no-ifs-no-buts/

https://rupabhaty.home.blog/2021/03/29/heliacal-rising-in-tai-brah-to-ascertain-the-nakṣatra-in-vernal-equinox/

That was the simplest way of presentation by me ( without alpha, beta , theta star names and degrees at vernal etc) yet everyone here kept silent on this issue. It brought to my thought that probably many among us are not comprehending since astronomy must be complicated to some.

Other than that I would request to not go by Laukika and Chandobhaashaa here, for Kennedy has said that if stone implements were made in trading size at one place then language was necessarily there. Of course we all have the mindset that Rg veda was written in 1900 BCE and so Brahmana must be more neo to us and that keeps us away from the evidence.

I will be happy to take the QA for my refutation to Mr. Roy's refutation of my claim of 10,000 BCE for Uttara phalguni epoch.

Kindly also ignore my problems of Dyslexia in my blog. I am thus very hesitant about writing. 

Regards

Rupa

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[rupa bhaty]

Shri Kaul Ji and Shri Bijoy Ji

Kindly watch 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOkysD1iJNc

I will be happy to take QA for this video.

Regards

Rupa

[Bijoy Misra]

You talk like a teacher and then say dyslexic! 

This whole thing sounds like noise to me.

Raja Roy is talking about some marketing efforts,

Please allow me to ignore.

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[rupa bhaty]

To show my problem doesn't prove anything in regard to the subject.

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[A K Kaul]

Sushri Rupa Bhaty Ji,

Jai Shri Ram!

Would you be kind enough to answer my mail in the forum instead of asking me to watch your videos.

With regards and Jai Shri Ram!

A K Kaul

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[Nityanand Misra]

On Sunday, 25 April, 2021 at 6:19:28 pm UTC+5:30 rupabhaty16 wrote:

Dear Nityananda ji,

I see that you have started moderating very sensitive issues of Astronomy claims.

Just to clarify, I am not moderating this issue/debate nor do I intend to. I am not the moderator/one of the moderators of this mailing list.

I am simply participating in a discussion. 

[rupa bhaty]

Oh!, my bad. Someone wrote that your goodself were moderating in this forum so I repeated.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

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[rupa bhaty]

Shri Kaul ji,

There are many answers pertaining to Ramayana in the conference talk conducted by Indic Academy. I have simplified few issues and 

you will certainly like them. 

Regards

Rupa

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[A K Kaul]

Sushri Rupa Bhaty Ji,

Jai Shri Ram!

The "speakers" of my monitor/system are having some problem.

 Because of "lockdown" I have no idea when they will be replaced, if at all!

Even otherwise also, I would prefer a "written" discussion point by point on the issues involved in my mail.

With regards and Jai Shri Ram!

A K Kaul

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[Himanshu Pota]

Respected Shri Kaul,

The points you raise need a convincing response. I am not an expert but like most people I have some views about it based on what I have read.

Most of these Scriptures have an original core and then content like Ram ruled for 100,000 years, which may be a later insertion. Because of this we cannot reject the core that might yet be of great value. Perhaps we need to separate the core from the Scriptures first and then base our research on that core.

The use of star positions and other such information to get a deeper understanding of the Scriptures may be based on this idea of a core plus insertions. All scholarly work, done with dispassion, will help us to get more out of the teachings in these Scriptures.

Thanks.

Himanshu

[Dr. Yadu Moharir]

Dear List:

Can some one help me understand the significance of trying to Date: "RaamaayaNa / Mahaabhaarata / Shushruta Samhitaa  ....... Etc."

IMHO:  How old the text is not important but the core message our ancestors wanted to impart and for us to assimilate !?

What instruments Shrushruta invented, why & how he refined them; How did he evaluate his students, what was his criteria for that evaluation; How was it beneficial to society at large !?

How does it really matter when it (events) happened or got documented, the critical issue should be to try and understand the "Take Home Message" from those events ? That got classified as veda or upa-veda ...... etc. !?

In what way does the academic research help preserve the core essence (puruShaa) from ancient wisdom based on their observations, except for bragging rights, as feather in the cap to stake a claim that entitles them that they are doing important research in a scientific manner.

Thank everyone in advance for sharing their opinion and thoughts.

Please feel free to share your comments privately rather than the public forum.

Having said this, it is extremely important for me because I am in the process of creating an for Endowment for samskR^ita studies.

Rgds

Dr Yadu

On Sunday, April 25, 2021, 7:38:10 AM MST, Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

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On Sunday, 25 April, 2021 at 6:19:28 pm UTC+5:30 rupabhaty16 wrote:

Dear Nityananda ji,

I see that you have started moderating very sensitive issues of Astronomy claims.

Just to clarify, I am not moderating this issue/debate nor do I intend to. I am not the moderator/one of the moderators of this mailing list.

I am simply participating in a discussion. 

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[vishal jaiswal]

Please feel free to share your comments privately rather than the public forum.

Dr Yadu, your email is not visible, so I cannot write to you.

Vishal

[Himanshu Pota]

Respected Dr Yadu,

The mind likes to have whatever can be comprehended by the intellect. Today the mind is focused on one thing and tomorrow it may want another thing. Today someone is interested in just the message tomorrow they may insist on getting the dates. No one can tell.

Thus scholars should try to lay bare everything that the intellect can comprehend.

True, the message is the key but human mind being what it is, it may at times refuse to get the message unless told about other things as well. It is not uncommon for people to hear a good quote and then go looking for who said, where, etc.

The teachings, technology, techniques in our Scriptures are the most important things but other matters like who wrote, when, where, etc., may add to the appeal of the Scriptures.

Thanks.

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[Kalicharan Tuvij]

Namaste.

Why is dating Ramayana/Mahabharata important?

Because among other things it makes us recover the basic principles on which Panchanga, or the time measurement framework, rests.

That's exactly where Oak-Bhaty get it right when they inculcate precession into Panchanga system thus giving basic credit to the intellect and experience of the Rsi-s. From here onwards it is indeed difficult to err much.

In my understanding they've erred by ~2000 years on both counts: Ramayana and Mahabharata datings.

But since Ramayana is along bigger time scales, the error is acceptable, and the dating is able to correctly convey the time scale of Ramayana (the historical event, not the text; att. Mr Kaul).

Any said errors would also be removed, if some more understanding is gained regarding the principles of Panchanga due to which Nakshatra-s also undergo some changes yuga-to-yuga (i.e. bigger time-scales).

In the meanwhile, Oak-Bhaty work should be appreciated and understood in a proper light (not in black or white).

KT

[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

Some points to contemplate deeply on the observation :  

                  < … dating Ramayana/Mahabharata …  among other things   makes us recover the basic principles on which Panchanga, or the time measurement framework, rests  > .

 

This is also answering ‘What is the utility- benefit-  intended application ( upa-yoga   VINIYOGA)  of Ramayana –Mahabahrata studies raised earlier by Dr. Yadu Moharir .

 

If we don’t understand ‘why date ramayana- Mahabharata through legit approach , we may as well forget about the ‘ 64 Shakti-peethas,  12 Jyotirlinga- places, 108 Divya-kshetra’ related ‘land-divine-heritage connection.  And  ‘traditional ‘dasha-avataras’ would end up as ‘ Hollywood Avtar’s’!  

 

Faith cannot be modified by ‘History’ ; Faith does not need ‘Historical evidence’.    Faith needs  Experiential guidance and Utility Application  Practice Road map. 

Tradition schools  calls this as ‘Guru-shaastra-Yoga-Samskrutha- Samskara – Samskruti- Sampradaya’. This framework also defines ‘How to LEARN-USE-Samskrutham’.

 

Acharya Madhwa’s classification of ‘Moola-Ramayana, Bharata’ as ‘Shaastra’  on par with  ‘ Four Vedas’  is something to contemplate  deeply.    

 

What is NOT to be  Ramayana Mahabharata related date studies  

 

A.    Ramayana related debates are not about Scholars fixing any ‘historical human ( intentional or deliberated or  overlooked- introduction of  numeric error  in ‘Panchanga’  by providing anchors to  (precession- recession-   ahargana- ayanmasha…..) using ‘ ganita’  !  

B.      The study of ‘Ramayana- Mahabharata’ as ‘Shaastra’ is  not for ‘ historic land- identification using archaeo- evidence’ and  ‘ satellite provided  geo-coordinates’ to get a confirmation of  where and when, how -  ‘ some historical Rama put his foot print,  Hanuman was born and raised, sita took a bath, …’.  If this line is to  be explored, one needs to  be specific which of the Jain ramayana marked ‘ Rama out of some hundreds of Ramas’ is going to be anchored in the investigation.    See ‘Rama in Jain tradiiton’ related studies ! Are we even sure that we are talking of same ‘rama’ and ‘ramayana’ ? Because Ramayana has ‘ shata-koti-pravistram’ versions !?  

C.      We, as  ‘ Faith and Culture:  Identity community simply accept the given  ‘Sampradaya’  as a good starting point for Yoga-practice progress, which is much more realistic, relevant than satisfying a curios of ‘ historic Rama’ !    If ‘history – historicity- historic Jesus has not been a limitation for other religion, why should it be a limitation for Rama and Krishna, Siddhas, Yogi’s, Buddha’s, Bodhisatvas and Teerthankaras  who go way back  in Time line ?  

D.     ‘Ramayana’-  (Adi Kavi Valmiki Version, as accepted today ; Jain Ramayana’s, Buddhist versions included )  recognize different TIME LINES even when using the ‘BASIC FRAMEWORK OF PANCHANGA/  JYOTISHA /  ’.  Modern translations could use several pointing words like Sky mapping, Stellar positions, Eclipse –Memory recollection and retrace  as a sky-phenomenon, Confusions between ‘Graha – Ketu- Dhoomaketu- Ulkaa ( and many mid and upper heaven phenomenon described).

 

What COULD BE  Ramayana Mahabharata related date studies for ( A suggestion for further deliberation) ?

  

  2.  Dating of ‘Ramayana’ is important to give a ‘ Human Heritage Connection’ to the current community and recognize the sanctity-divinity of land and eco system. The essential message of Gita (Vishwaroopa darshana yoga). Rushi’s/ Shaastra-kaaras align this heritage traditional wisdom to the Veda-Yoga-Samskrutham documents   using technicalities of  ‘Veda- Bhashaa’  to ‘Deva-Bhashaa’  as Cosmic /Aakashic Language and Words, connecting ‘Avatar’ of  Supreme Divine giving a discourse- dialogue.    

 

2a. (  काल-देश -सूत्र – शास्त्र  )  A ‘Date’ helps Faith- Pride- Connection to people  of  land that their present living  land is integrally connected to the  Divine as ‘Rama-Kshetra, Dharma-Kshetra- Kurukshetra – Punya kshetra, Aryavarta, Yoga-kshetra)   

 

2b. (  वैदिक- श्रद्धा -सूत्र  - शास्त्र) The ‘Samskruth Document’ helps the community to  have a re-assurance  by Rushi’s-Yogi’s-Devataa authority about the Continued Stability of Universe in its ‘Pada (Vedic word) – Artha (purpose)- Padartha ( Matter)– Kshetra-Kshetrajna- Dharma (Methods- systems-properties of Beings in the Universe = Jeeva Raashi’  guna-karma-varna-swabhaava ) .

 

       [Rushi’s are  the Human achievers –Yogi’s – Sage-Scientists- Discoverers –Formulators –Refiners –Visionaries ] who used Yoga’s to engage

        and explore the Cosmos in  all its Material  and Manifestation modalities as ‘ Brahma / Parama-Purusha / Purushottama Vasudeva/ The

         Supreme Divine Consciousness ]

 

2c. (योग-सूत्र- शास्त्र  ) Affirmation that every human being is intrinsically made of same ‘ Prakruti- Purusha’ essence :: Matter- Consciousness –Combine giving each one a ‘ Vishistataa ( uniqueness) and Saadhaaranataa ( Universality).  None is barred from entry to the portals of Parama-Purusha and unfold their true inner potential . The essential tune of ‘Shivoham, Soham, Tvamevaham, soham-bhaavena poojayet, deho devalayah proktah..].  

 

2d. (यज्ञ-सूत्र – शास्त्र   )  Provide user friendly  Yoga- Exploration roadmap from Highest level  ‘Veda’ to Socially accessible ‘ Kavya- itihasa- Kathaa’ avatarana  using the ‘Shaastra-Sampradaya sadaachaara paddhati.  The ‘Veda-Darshana’ becomes ‘ Devataa Vachana’ and Rushi-prokta’ in Ramayana and Mahabharata.   

 

2e. (संकल्प-संस्कार- संस्कृति -सूत्र -- शास्त्र  )  Yoga-Science affirmation  presented  through Yoga-Rushi-Darshana for community that Divine Intervention takes care of  TIME-ORDER-Housekeeping  of COSMOS (Gita: 14-27: brahmano hi pratisthaham amrtasyavyayasya ca sasvatasya ca dharmasya sukhasyaikantikasya ca)   in our geo-temporal context marked in samkalpa as < this ‘Planet-Earth / Manu’s Land Rule and Time ( Manvantara - Jamboo Dweepa- Kali yuga…..   my location of ‘ Rama-Kshetra/ Dandakaranya/ Godaavaryaaha dakshine teere….. where I am performing this  action).   

 

2f. (ब्रह्म-सूत्र – शास्त्र ) A road map to explore Yoga-Science of Consciousness and train skills for Applied yoga –professions of ‘ Puro-Hita ‘ : whose duty and dignity is given as ‘वयं राष्ट्रे जागृयाम - पुरोहिताः ‘ One who  serves as a vigilant guard and  visionary-guide for  the Welfare of the Nation.   In current period, due to maligned ways of ‘Dating Ramayana – Mahabharata’, the duty and dignity of ‘purohita’ is constricted to the level of a ‘ Hindu Priest- Poor Brahmana’.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[rupa bhaty]

Dear Nityanand ji,

Although your kindself is not moderating, but with all due respect it is still a request to please read my two blogs on addressing the problems of vasanta and hemanta-shishir's identification with Samvatsara in the case of both Uttaraphalguni epoch, which are just five min read. Brahmanas are sanskrit texts and based on that I have tried to decode. You have great command of the sanskrit language and I know it will take a fraction of seconds for you to understand what I have discussed there. I have read these texts keeping aside any preconceived notions (initially I used to see only Winter Solstice everywhere). After coming across the Agni and Soma concept of Samvatsara, I tried to understand the heat insolation ( gharma) of the northern and southern hemisphere w.r.t Sun rising in the Northern and Southern Hemisphere (simple observations), i.e. VE to AE and AE to VE observations. Then I gathered ethnographic information to understand better if we are missing something greater in all the indic texts. It appears that Indian calendar system was accurate till 500 CE and consistent with the Spring equinox, thus the names Viṣu, Bihu etc, which are cognates of Viṣuva.

Few of the texts that I gathered in regard of Gharma, Agni, Samvatsara, ShiraH, Deva, Madhu connection from Taitiriya AraNyaka is given as under for your perusal.

आ घर्मो अग्निमृतयन्नसादीत् ८ अनाधृष्या पुरस्तात् । अग्नेराधिपत्ये । आयुर्मे दाः । पुत्रवती दक्षिणतः । इन्द्र स्याधिपत्ये । प्रजां मे दाः । सुषदा पश्चात् । देवस्य सवितुराधिपत्ये । प्राणं मे दाः ।

देव घर्म देवान्पाहि ८, ४।७।८

घर्मं पात वसवो यजता वट् १५ स्वाहा त्वा सूर्यस्य रश्मये वृष्टिवनये जुहोमि १६ मधु हविरसि १७ ४।८। १५,१६,१७

घर्मः शिरस्तदयमग्निः ।४।१७।१

अनुवाक ११, घर्म या ते दिवि शुक् । या गायत्रे छन्दसि ।४।११।११ 

अनुवाक १९-अग्निरसि वैश्वानरोऽसि । संवत्सरोऽसि परिवत्सरोऽसि । इदावत्सरोऽसीदुवत्सरोऽसि । इद्वत्सरोऽसि वत्सरोऽसि । तस्य ते वसन्तः शिरः । ....। ऋतवस्ते कल्पन्ताम् । संवत्सरस्ते कल्पन्ताम् । अहोरात्राणि ते कल्पन्ताम् । एति प्रेति वीति समित्युदिति । प्रजापतिस्त्वा सादयतु । तया देवतयाऽङ्गिरस्वद्ध्रुवः सीद..४।१९।१ (devas are from VE to AE, stated in Sūryasiddhānta as well, Angirasas/later Asuras are from AE till VE, I read it in Aitereya, unable to locate instantly from my hardcopy)

Uttaraphalguni epoch phrase..."वसन्ताग्निमाधत्ते मुख्य एव भवति / यदुत्तरे फल्गुनि मुख्य एव संवत्सरस्याग्निमाधाय वसियान् भवति।" मुख्य (head) here attests घर्मः शिरस्तदयमग्निः ।४।१७।१ 

Now for the FAQ that "vasanta never starts with the cardinal point Vernal equinox and thus new year cannot be ascertained and Indians didn't know how to observe saṃvatsara in Brāhmaṇas" we have a rescue in the word "Agni" here in the pics attached from Aitereya Brāhmaṇa that Vishuva is the day that begets saṃvatsara.

सम्वत्सरः- एषोऽग्निः।[ (शतपथ ब्राह्मण ६/२/२/१८) सम्वत्सर ही अग्नि है जो ऋतुओं को धारण करता है- सम्वत्सरः- एषोऽग्निः। स ऋतव्याभिः संहितः। सम्वत्सरमेवैतत्-ऋतुभिः-सन्तनोति, सन्दधाति॥।

संवत्सरो विषूवर्णैः । (१।१२) अनुवाक १२, तैत्तिरीयारण्यकम् प्रपाठकः १

It appears to me that Gujarata and Coptics had trade relations and thus for the sake of similar tax calendar they maintained similar year beginnings, especially must have appeared during Neolithic period. My Theory is- All the Indian texts are consistent with the year beginning from Vasant Vishuva- Spring Equinox. Once we understand this simple arithmetic of year beginning then we can move forward to dating of our scripture and where the problems began in understanding of Vedāñga Jyotiṣa. I always wondered that Gujaratis celebrate Uttarāyaṇa in humongous way but yet their Bestu baras is near fall equinox, why? Why not from Uttarāyaṇa? Similar is the case of Lohri during Makarsankrānti but new year begins in Baisakhi. I had been very inquisitive and discussed with many at twitter who know Sanskrit. I am raising these questions for discussion-reg of Vedāñga Jyotiṣa.

Thanks in advance and Regards

Rupa

N.B https://rupabhaty.home.blog/2020/11/12/agni-soma-the-concept-of-sun-and-moon-in-saṃvatsara/

On Sun, Apr 25, 2021 at 6:19 PM rupa bhaty <rupab...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Nityananda ji,

I see that you have started moderating very sensitive issues of Astronomy claims. I had already posted the link to Mr. Roy's refutation of my claim of 10,000 BCE of Uttara Phalguni epoch. To begin with, that was the simplest effort to bring forth the truth of samvatsara in Brahmanas which are extensions of Vedas. When I asked Mr. Roy to refute the refutation done by me he had said he doesn't bother and further warned me to be ready for another refutation. That is not good in favor of science.

I carefully chaffed out both the uttaraphalguni phrases of different Brahmanas and showed that we will have to go by internal evidence of the text in question and have shown them in yet another blog. 

https://rupabhaty.home.blog/2021/03/28/epoch-of-uttaraphalguni-10000-bce-no-ifs-no-buts/

https://rupabhaty.home.blog/2021/03/29/heliacal-rising-in-tai-brah-to-ascertain-the-nakṣatra-in-vernal-equinox/

That was the simplest way of presentation by me ( without alpha, beta ,theta star names and degrees at vernal etc) yet everyone here kept silent on this issue. It brought to my thought that probably many among us are not comprehending since astronomy must be complicated to some.

Other than that I would request to not go by Laukika and Chandobhaashaa here, for Kennedy has said that if stone implements were made in trading size at one place then language was necessarily there. Of course we all have the mindset that Rg veda was written in 1900 BCE and so Brahmana must be more neo to us and that keeps us away from the evidence.

I will be happy to take the QA for my refutation to Mr. Roy's refutation of my claim of 10,000 BCE for Uttara phalguni epoch.

Kindly also ignore my problems of Dyslexia in my blog. I am thus very hesitant about writing. 

Regards

Rupa

[Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri]

Mr. Tuvij and others on the list:

I have a curious question which has been bugging me for some time now. Since the issue of dating of Ramayana and Mahabharata is a heated one now, allow me to write a disclaimer first: I have no real knowledge of astronomy, am not a scholar in this field, nor am I fully qualified to pit myself against anyone in this discussion. Yet, I know some sanskrit, and am keenly following the archaeo-astronomy discussion started by Shri Nilesh Oak and responded to by Shri Roy and enjoined by Ms. Rupa Bhaty. In the interest of academic interest, all ideas must be allowed to surface. 

Mr. Tuvij wrote that Ramayana the historical event is approximately correct according to Shri Oak, +/- 2,000 years. This raised a question in my mind, keeping in mind Ramayana happened in Treta Yugam. Even if I discard the yuga calculations for the time being, there is another issue. 

Valmiki is a writer of Ramayanam and also a part of the story of Ramayanam. Sita actually lives at his ashramam, gives birth to Lava and Kusha and Valmiki was their teacher till they meet Rama and defeat him (?) after which Rama attains kaivalyam again. Ramayana does say Rama and Sita have spent a long time after they return from Lanka, and then Rama sends Sita to the forest again based on the suspicions all people of the land carry (not just the rajaka alone). This means Rama ruled for 11,000 years and then begat Lava and Kusha, and before they were born (Ramayana is silent on if he knew Sita was pregnant, isn't it?) sent Sita to the forest. If in Nilesh speak Ramayana occurred in 12 century BCE/13 century BCE, then Rama was living till atleast 1 century BCE, which seems untenable. So (a) we have to accept Nilesh Oak's understanding that the 11,000 years of his rule are not real years as we know, and have to accept Rama lived for 125 years, or (b) that the whole Ramayana happened in another Mahayuga (24th Mahayuga, current one is 28th) hence the timelines we are drawing are not relevant anyway. 

Which of the ones you and others in the list accept as the possibility? and Why? 

Regards,

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

Best Regards,

Krishna

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri
Ph-Cell: 408-373-9273

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[Kalicharan Tuvij]

(This message is meant as an isolated side note; not to derail the original thread)

The holistic but difficult "here-and-now", or viniyoga, should indeed be the approach to undertaking such tasks where warring viewpoints have to be accounted for (including sceptic, agnostic ones), where the indecisive "moving in circles" or the decisive "panchAyati verdict of the day" comes all too easy.

On Friday, April 30, 2021, Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri <pkri...@gmail.com> wrote:

So (a) we have to accept Nilesh Oak's understanding that the 11,000 years of his rule are not real years as we know, and have to accept Rama lived for 125 years, or (b) that the whole Ramayana happened in another Mahayuga (24th Mahayuga, current one is 28th) hence the timelines we are drawing are not relevant anyway. 

Which of the ones you and others in the list accept as the possibility? and Why? 

KKP ji,

 

Sanskrit is the key here. Not as a language but as a theory of language. In past (in this forum) I had replied to the same question using a so called "परिमाण-rule" for correct reading of Sanskrit texts.

But here let me answer this with example (no claim to authority made here).

"For specifically a purANa-itihAsa text e.g. Ramayana, the correct meaning of a word is dependent on a few lines (say 5 either side) surrounding that word."

e.g. when Dasharatha speaks of "SaSTiH varSa sahasraaNi jaatasya mama kaushika", here "jaatasya mama" would mean his own birth if we go by immediate context, but could mean "his race/lineage" (secondary meaning of jaata) if the whole context is accounted for.

Similarly, 11000 years could mean "the whole of subsequent dvApara yuga", with the understanding that an avatAra at the junction of a yuga is the default ruler/deity of the ensuing yuga.

Yet again, the purANa-itihAsa evidence, even when read correctly, cannot be expected to be accurate upto say minutes and seconds (though altogether calling "figurative" is also better avoided), e.g. 11,275.8643 years kind of figures; simply not the scope of such texts.

KT

[Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri]

Dear Shri Tuvij ji,

Thanks for your note. But I feel it is taking my point too lightly. 'The whole of Dvapara Yuga cannot be just about 8,500 years old, if Nilesh's timelines are accepted. What we know of Mahabharata war timing will ensure Ramayana will have to be much more than 12K BCE. I agree with your observation that the whole context of a sloka needs to be taken, and not just the literal meaning of a word. Yet the reason I am interested in pursuing this thought is that it may finally clarify our concept of Yuga, Mahayuga, and Kalpa. These concepts have been explained by several scholars, yet we are still arguing that Ramayana is dated at 12K BCE. I personally talked to Shri Samavedam Shanmukha Sarma garu, a great exponent of shastras. He explained Ramayana is not from this mahayugam.

Best Regards,

Krishna

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri
Ph-Cell: 408-373-9273

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