What should Sanskrit Vidwans be doing for Sanskrit.

[Achyut Karve]

Today many scholars through their institutions as well as at individual level are engaged in improving the literacy of Sanskrit.  My question is can we make an effort to streamline this effort?

Recently, I conducted classes for children aged 11 years to 14 years using Satavalekar's 'Swayam Shikshak'.  The classes were aimed to make the children conversant in reading Sanskrit giving special attention of short and long vowels.  To my surprise over a three month period not only did the children show improved skills in reading Sanskrit but it also helped them to read formal languages be it Marathi, Hindi or English better.  

There is no dearth of study material to learn Sanskrit.  The problem is of personalized instruction which is difficult  to get in the days of mass education.   Is the Guru shishya parampara becoming a bottle-neck for the advancement of Sanskrit studies.  Is there a way out?

  -

[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

The classes were aimed to make the children conversant in reading Sanskrit giving special attention of short and long vowels.

Indeed personalized instruction for Marathi-speaking children.

“Maharashtri Prakrit, the ancestor of modern Marathi, is a particularly interesting case. Maharashtri was often used for poetry and as such, diverged from proper Sanskrit grammar mainly to fit the language to the meter of different styles of poetry. The new grammar stuck, which led to the unique flexibility of vowels lengths – amongst other anomalies – in Marathi.” — इ॒दं मा॑धवदेशपाण्डेमहोद॒यानां॑ वच॒नमिति॑ स्मरामि। इ॒यं मे॒ स्मृति॒रस॑त्या॒ चेदु॑च्यताम्।

किन्त्व१॒॑यं प्र॒श्नः। क॒थं तर्हि॑ शौरसेनीभा॒षास॑म्भवायां गुर्जरभा॒षाया॒मपि॑ ह्रस्वदीर्घाभे॒दः?

[Madhav Deshpande]

I don't recall this being my statement. I don't remember writing anything about the flexibility of vowels in poetry in Maharashtri Prakrit. This is however true in Marathi poetry.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Achyut Karve]

Is the absence of sensitivity to short and long vowels in the spoken tongue limited to Marathi or is it applicable to all Indian Languages?  

Achyut Karve.

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[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

I don't recall this being my statement. I don't remember writing anything about the flexibility of vowels in poetry in Maharashtri Prakrit. This is however true in Marathi poetry.

दिष्ट्या॒ मया॑ कृ॒तः प्र॒श्नो भव॑ता प्र॒त्याख्या॑ता च मे॒ स्मृतिः॑। इ॒दम् अत्रा॑पठम्- (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathi_language#Phonology). तत्र॒ कुतो॑ गृही॒तम् इति॒ न लि॑खि॒तम्। पूर्वे॑ क॒दाचि॒त् तत्र॒ भव॑तो॒ लेखो॒ निर्दि॑ष्ट आसी॒द् इति॑ मे मि॒थ्या मति॑र् आसीत्।

[Madhav Deshpande]

This Wiki article about Marathi is informative, but I am not the author.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 6:12 AM उज्ज्वल राजपूत <ujjwal....@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't recall this being my statement. I don't remember writing anything about the flexibility of vowels in poetry in Maharashtri Prakrit. This is however true in Marathi poetry.

दिष्ट्या॒ मया॑ कृ॒तः प्र॒श्नो भव॑ता प्र॒त्याख्या॑ता च मे॒ स्मृतिः॑। इ॒दम् अत्रा॑पठम्- (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathi_language#Phonology). तत्र॒ कुतो॑ गृही॒तम् इति॒ न लि॑खि॒तम्। पूर्वे॑ क॒दाचि॒त् तत्र॒ भव॑तो॒ लेखो॒ निर्दि॑ष्ट आसी॒द् इति॑ मे मि॒थ्या मति॑र् आसीत्।

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[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

Is the absence of sensitivity to short and long vowels in the spoken tongue limited to Marathi or is it applicable to all Indian Languages?

भार॑ते॒ ताव॑न् महाराष्ट्रग-गुर्जर-भा॒षास्वपि॑ च॒ ताभिः॑ स॒ङ्गं भज॑मानासु उत्तरकर्णा॒टे कन्नडभा॒षायां॒ विद॑र्भेषु बुन्देली-राजस्थानी-भा॒षासु॑ मालवीभा॒षायां॑ च॒ प्रवृ॑त्तिर् इ॒यं परि॑लक्षिता॒ मया॑।

Of Indian languages, I have observed this in Marathi, Gujarati and other languages in close contact with them, like Kannada in Northern Karnataka, Bundeli and Rajasthani languages spoken in Vidarbha, and Malwi languages.

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 6:42 PM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is the absence of sensitivity to short and long vowels in the spoken tongue limited to Marathi or is it applicable to all Indian Languages?  

I am surprised this is the case in marAThi. This is not a feature in kannaDa or tamiL or telugu or hindI. (Albeit just to fit the meter, some poets rarely changed vowel length - eg. kumAravyAsa used नारयण instead of नारायण ).

 

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Vishvas /विश्वासः

[Nagaraj Paturi]

 "अपि माषं मषं कुर्यात् छन्दोभङ्गं न कारयेत्" is a maxim I heard from my teachers. It could be prevalent in Telugu region. But is applied to Sanskrit verses. 

Here, I found it used in the context of Sanskrit. 

                                      ।। 1.1.21 ।। तस्याभिषेकसंभारान् दृष्ट्वा भार्या ऽथ कैकयी ।। 21 ।।

                                                                  

                                                                        ----अमृतकतकव्याख्या----

...........

................................................................. पूर्वं-- पूर्वस्मिन् इन्द्रसहायार्थप्रवृत्तदशरथयुद्धकाले दशरथोपरि प्रयुक्तां आसुरीं मायां धवलाङ्गमुनिदत्तविद्यया निवारयन्त्यै कैकेय्यै तुष्टेन दशरथेन, दत्तवरा-- दत्तौ वरौ यस्यै सा तथा, देवी कृताभिषेका कैकयी-- केकयस्य अपत्यं स्त्री, "क्षत्रियसमानशब्दात् जनपदात् तस्य राजन्यपत्यवत्' इत्यञि जनपदे लुप् । "केकयमित्रयु' इत्यादिना यादेरियादेशे गुणे चादिवृद्धौ "टिढ्ढाणञ्৷৷." इत्यादिना ङीपि "यस्य--" इति लोपे कैकेयीति भवति । अत्र "अपि माषं मषं कुर्यात् छन्दोभङ्गं न कारयेत्" इति न्यायेन कैकयी इति प्रयोगः । एनं वक्ष्यमाणलक्षणं वरं-- पूर्वदत्तं प्राप्तकालत्वादयाचत दशरथं, द्विकर्मकत्वात् याचेः ।। 1.1.21 ।। 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director, Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru

BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership

Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

 

 

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Vishvas Ji,

     To specify more details, the variation of vowel length in Marathi poetry occurs primarily in इ/ई and उ/ऊ. The अ/आ variation often happens when followed by a consonant cluster, e.g. तत्काळ/तात्काळ, where the metrical value of the syllable still remains Guru. The word-final इ is now almost always a long ई in modern Marathi pronunciation, and this has now been admitted in the latest official writing reform. So Sanskrit रवि is now written as रवी in Marathi, and so is the other Marathi word रवी referring to a wooden tool used to churn buttermilk. The Sanskrit word कवि is now written in Marathi with long ई as in the word देवी. The stress in Marathi falls on the last syllable making it phonetically somewhat longer. 

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

https://mr.wikipedia.org/wiki/शुद्धलेखनाचे_नियम#नियम५ (नियम ८ पर्यन्त पहा)

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 9:50 AM उज्ज्वल राजपूत <ujjwal....@gmail.com> wrote:

https://mr.wikipedia.org/wiki/शुद्धलेखनाचे_नियम#नियम५ (नियम ८ पर्यन्त पहा)

तत्र ह्रस्वदीर्घभेदं स्पष्टं दृश्यते - ह्रस्वं दीर्घवन् न वदन्ति - अपि तु दीर्घीकृत्य लब्धं मराठीशब्दं सुद्धम् एव वदन्तीति भाति। किं नामात्रोच्यते ऽच्युतादिभिर् ह्रस्वदीर्घविवेकाभावे तर्हि?

 

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[Achyut Karve]

I have a more pointed question.  Is the vowel अ in 'cut'  articulated?  

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 9:50 AM उज्ज्वल राजपूत <ujjwal....@gmail.com> wrote:

https://mr.wikipedia.org/wiki/शुद्धलेखनाचे_नियम#नियम५ (नियम ८ पर्यन्त पहा)

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[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

तत्र ह्रस्वदीर्घभेदं स्पष्टं दृश्यते - ह्रस्वं दीर्घवन् न वदन्ति - अपि तु दीर्घीकृत्य लब्धं मराठीशब्दं सुद्धम् एव वदन्तीति भाति। किं नामात्रोच्यते ऽच्युतादिभिर् ह्रस्वदीर्घविवेकाभावे तर्हि?

ते त॑त्समश॒ब्दान् अपि॒ यथापि॑ लिखि॒तान् स्वैर् म॑राठीभाषानिय॒मैर् ह्र॑स्वदीर्घव्यत्य॒येन॑ पठन्ति। ते च॒ तेषां॑ निय॒मा अर्थं॒ नाव॑धारयन्ति। श॒ब्द॒स्व॒रू॒पा॒नु॒सा॒रम् ए॒व ह्र॑स्वदीर्घ॒त्वं विधी॑यते। शब्दे॑ ह्रस्वदीर्घ॒त्वं कथ॑यितुं॒ काऽपि॒ स्मृति॒र् नापे॑क्षिता। हि॒न्दी॒भा॒षां वद॒न्तोऽप्यन॑भ्यासे॒ तथै॒व म॑राठीनिय॒मैर् ह्र॑स्वदीर्घ॒त्वं कृ॒त्वा व॑दन्ति। अ॒न्यस्य॑ हिन्दीभा॒षां श्रु॒त्वा कथ॑यितुं॒ न श॑क्नुवन्ति॒ यत्र॑ ह्र॒स्वो यत्र॑ च दी॒र्घः। अत॑ उच्यते ह्रस्वदीर्घत्वाविवे॒क इति॑।

प्राङ् म॑राठीभा॒षा मो॑डीलि॒प्यालि॑ख्यत। तस्यां॑ ह्रस्वेग्व॒र्णेभ्यो॑ दीर्घेग्व॒र्णेभ्य॑श्च पृ॒थग् अ॒क्षरा॑णि॒ नास॑न्।

[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

https://mr.wikipedia.org/wiki/शुद्धलेखनाचे_नियम#नियम५ (नियम ८ पर्यन्त पहा)

अपि॑ च तत्समश॒ब्दानां॒ लेख॑ने मराठ्यनुसा॒रं व्य॑त्य॒यं दृ॒ष्ट्वैवेमे ले॑खननिय॒माः कृ॒ताः। तथापि॒ सर्व॑स्मिन् महारा॒ष्ट्रे गु॑र्जरप्रदे॒शे विद॑र्भेषु॒ क्व॑चिन् मध्यप्रदे॒शे क॑र्णाटप्रदे॒शेऽपि॑ च (क॒न्न॒ड॒लि॒प्या) लि॑खि॒तेषु॑ तत्समश॒ब्देषु॑ व्यत्य॒यं प॑श्याम्ये॒व।

[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

अ॒स्माकं॑ प्रधानम॒न्त्रिणोऽपि॑ श्रु॒तं स्या॒द् भव॑ता-

mere deṣ ke  nā(a)garīk

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 8:13 AM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

 "अपि माषं मषं कुर्यात् छन्दोभङ्गं न कारयेत्" is a maxim I heard from my teachers. It could be prevalent in Telugu region. But is applied to Sanskrit verses. 

Here, I found it used in the context of Sanskrit. 

सर्वास् ताष् टीकास् तत्रोपलभ्यन्त इति नाज्ञासिषम्! 

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 11:41 AM उज्ज्वल राजपूत <ujjwal....@gmail.com> wrote:

तत्र ह्रस्वदीर्घभेदं स्पष्टं दृश्यते - ह्रस्वं दीर्घवन् न वदन्ति - अपि तु दीर्घीकृत्य लब्धं मराठीशब्दं सुद्धम् एव वदन्तीति भाति। किं नामात्रोच्यते ऽच्युतादिभिर् ह्रस्वदीर्घविवेकाभावे तर्हि?

ते त॑त्समश॒ब्दान् अपि॒ यथापि॑ लिखि॒तान् स्वैर् म॑राठीभाषानिय॒मैर् ह्र॑स्वदीर्घव्यत्य॒येन॑ पठन्ति। ते च॒ तेषां॑ निय॒मा अर्थं॒ नाव॑धारयन्ति। श॒ब्द॒स्व॒रू॒पा॒नु॒सा॒रम् ए॒व ह्र॑स्वदीर्घ॒त्वं विधी॑यते। शब्दे॑ ह्रस्वदीर्घ॒त्वं कथ॑यितुं॒ काऽपि॒ स्मृति॒र् नापे॑क्षिता। हि॒न्दी॒भा॒षां वद॒न्तोऽप्यन॑भ्यासे॒ तथै॒व म॑राठीनिय॒मैर् ह्र॑स्वदीर्घ॒त्वं कृ॒त्वा व॑दन्ति। अ॒न्यस्य॑ हिन्दीभा॒षां श्रु॒त्वा कथ॑यितुं॒ न श॑क्नुवन्ति॒ यत्र॑ ह्र॒स्वो यत्र॑ च दी॒र्घः। अत॑ उच्यते ह्रस्वदीर्घत्वाविवे॒क इति॑।

ओह्! महाराष्ट्रक-संस्कृतज्ञ-वाक्-शुद्धौ तर्हि विद्मये! 

 

प्राङ् म॑राठीभा॒षा मो॑डीलि॒प्यालि॑ख्यत। तस्यां॑ ह्रस्वेग्व॒र्णेभ्यो॑ दीर्घेग्व॒र्णेभ्य॑श्च पृ॒थग् अ॒क्षरा॑णि॒ नास॑न्।

आसन्न् इति तु भाति - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modi_(Unicode_block) । प्रायेण बहुभिस् त्यक्तानि?

[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

ओह्! महाराष्ट्रक-संस्कृतज्ञ-वाक्-शुद्धौ तर्हि विद्मये! 

अ॒स्माकं॒ सर्वे॑षां॒ सैव स्थिति॑र् उदात्तादिस्वरविष॒ये।

[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

On   < This is not a feature in kannaDa> 

 

Not correct. This is also a feature of Kannada, in very large part of documents in ‘daasa and sharana sahitya’.

 

Human mind introduces flexible corrections in understanding the spoken word and scripted letters.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear friends,

I am a student of music.  What is the difference in speech while it is spoken and written.  We speak in madhya laya.  However when we write the laya or tempo is reduced to 1/4th of that when we speak.   If a person is not sensitive enough he starts writing with the help of memory of script forms of words.  

In short the written word cannot be taken as a standard for deciphering how a word was uttered or spoken.  No wonder that people use convention for writing words.  The rules for suddha lekhan are precisely meant for that purpose.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/01bc01d789a7%2479cab330%246d601990%24%40gmail.com.

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 8:40 AM BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop) <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste

 

On   < This is not a feature in kannaDa> 

 

Not correct. This is also a feature of Kannada, in very large part of documents in ‘daasa and sharana sahitya’.

I did say: (Albeit just to fit the meter, some poets rarely changed vowel length - eg. kumAravyAsa used नारयण instead of नारायण )

Perhaps I should have said "meter and rhythm" and "poets and song-writers" to be more comprehensive. mAtrA-flexibility is not a feature of kannaDa barring such exception (and the north KA dialect mentioned by ujjvala) AFAIK.

[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

आसन्न् इति तु भाति - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modi_(Unicode_block) । प्रायेण बहुभिस् त्यक्तानि?

न त्य॒क्तानि॑। Unicode-म॒ध्ये यो॒जय॑द्भिर् वर्णमा॒लासु॑ दृश्यन्त॒ इत्य॒नेनै॒व हे॒तुना॑ गृही॒तानि॑। 

4.4 Vowels

“Generally, the distinction between regular and long forms of i and u are not preserved in Moḍi. The letter 𑘃 may represent both i and ī; 𑘄 may be used for writing both u and ū. However, both regular and long forms are proposed for encoding because they are attested in script charts (केव॑ल॒मत्र॑ दृश्यन्ते) as distinct letters.”

www.unicode.org/L2/L2011/11212r2-n4034-modi.pdf (page 4)

[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

On < mAtrA-flexibility is not a feature of kannaDa barring such exception (and the north KA dialect mentioned by ujjvala) AFAIK>

 

mAtrA-flexibility is also observed and a feature of kannaDa haidasa sahitya and sharana sahitya/ janapada sahitya.

Voiced documents reflect it.  The illustrations can be noticed in several compositions of  ‘dasa’s, sharanas and local singers’.

Listening discerning audience make ‘human alignment and dynamic adjustment for capturing ‘intent, and word-pointers’ in the composition.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ???????? ???????? (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sent: 05 August 2021 09:26
To: bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: What should Sanskrit Vidwans be doing for Sanskrit.

 

 

 

On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 8:40 AM BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop) <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

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[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

Digital Technologies have demanded a new thinking process on  identifying the  <need and difference between language as spoken and written>.

In the human mode, Language- regulation was  direct and  contained in  ‘ human standard frame’.

 

With the advent of digital smart  devices the ‘ visual of voice =  lipi-roopa of varna-akshara’ – has attracted intervention of techno-linguists in this process.

The ‘font- logic’ placed in ‘system-memory’ and ‘ logic of display rendering on screen’ contributes to how language –digital documents get proliferated in studies.

 

I share one document addressing ‘FONTS’ in which ‘Samskruth/Devanagari/ Brahmi scripts…’ .

This may be of importance and  interest for action  in addressing the theme: ‘What should Sanskrit Vidwans be doing for Sanskrit’  to keep ‘Human language standard in devices’ . 

And how   keying errors do not augmented and enhanced by  ‘techno-linguistic’ interventions pl ? like the split of sandhi’s, white space and the like ?

 < तत्र ह्रस्वदीर्घभेदं स्पष्टं दृश्यते - ह्रस्वं दीर्घवन् न वदन्ति - अपि तु दीर्घीकृत्य लब्धं मराठीशब्दं सुद्धम् एव वदन्तीति भाति।

     किं नामात्रोच्यते ऽच्युतादिभिर् ह्रस्वदीर्घविवेकाभावे तर्हि?

 

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Achyut Karve
Sent: 05 August 2021 09:08
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: What should Sanskrit Vidwans be doing for Sanskrit.

 

Dear friends,

 

I am a student of music.  What is the difference in speech while it is spoken and written.  We speak in madhya laya.  However when we write the laya or tempo is reduced to 1/4th of that when we speak.   If a person is not sensitive enough he starts writing with the help of memory of script forms of words.  

 

In short the written word cannot be taken as a standard for deciphering how a word was uttered or spoken.  No wonder that people use convention for writing words.  The rules for suddha lekhan are precisely meant for that purpose.

 

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

On Thu, Aug 5, 2021, 8:40 AM BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop) <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 3:47 AM उज्ज्वल राजपूत <ujjwal....@gmail.com> wrote:

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 2:02 PM BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop) <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste

 

On < mAtrA-flexibility is not a feature of kannaDa barring such exception (and the north KA dialect mentioned by ujjvala) AFAIK>

 

mAtrA-flexibility is also observed and a feature of kannaDa haidasa sahitya and sharana sahitya/ janapada sahitya.

The use of "also" above seems to be misleading, since "such" in my sentence already referred to deviations by song-writers (acknowledged in the sentence preceding it).

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 2:22 PM BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop) <sastr...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

And how   keying errors do not augmented and enhanced by  ‘techno-linguistic’ interventions pl ? like the split of sandhi’s, white space and the like ?

 < तत्र ह्रस्वदीर्घभेदं स्पष्टं दृश्यते - ह्रस्वं दीर्घवन् न वदन्ति - अपि तु दीर्घीकृत्य लब्धं मराठीशब्दं सुद्धम् एव वदन्तीति भाति।

     किं नामात्रोच्यते ऽच्युतादिभिर् ह्रस्वदीर्घविवेकाभावे तर्हि?

The above has one keying error - सु instead of शु. It is neither augmented nor enhanced by the use of whitespace which does not conform to the fashion of the past 200 years. And, no "sandhi" is split. 

 

[Achyut Karve]

My father who as a doctor worked in a missionary hospital in Bangalore in the 1930's used to describe the missionary attitude thus -

'Give me a child till the age of 10 and then take him away.  He will thereafter ever remain mine.'

We start introducing Sanskrit in Schools when the child is 11 years or 13 years.  In what way will this help in taking the mission of Sanskrit ahead because by that time the child's (lingual) tongue has already got stabilized.

If anything needs to be done for Sanskrit it is necessary that Sanskrit needs to be introduced at least at the age of 6.  It is during the period that language skills develop the fastest.  Have adult literacy programmes ever succeeded?

For this to happen a big army of Sanskrit primary teachers has to assembled.

From my experience Sanskrit montessories or primary schools need not do it at the cost of English or other vernacular languages.  At the age of 11 the child or it's guardian can decide whether the child wants to continue formal education in Sanskrit or in any other language.

Chammu Shastri's work is in that direction.   It is no wonder therefore that he has diplomatically criticised the work that has been taken up through government aided institutions.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 3:37 PM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Today many scholars through their institutions as well as at individual level are engaged in improving the literacy of Sanskrit.  My question is can we make an effort to streamline this effort?

Recently, I conducted classes for children aged 11 years to 14 years using Satavalekar's 'Swayam Shikshak'.  The classes were aimed to make the children conversant in reading Sanskrit giving special attention of short and long vowels.  To my surprise over a three month period not only did the children show improved skills in reading Sanskrit but it also helped them to read formal languages be it Marathi, Hindi or English better.  

There is no dearth of study material to learn Sanskrit.  The problem is of personalized instruction which is difficult  to get in the days of mass education.   Is the Guru shishya parampara becoming a bottle-neck for the advancement of Sanskrit studies.  Is there a way out?

  -

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Watch this Baby Conversing in Sanskrit With Her Father 

https://youtu.be/938mk9Uj0d0

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[Achyut Karve]

What does the video show?  It  shows that Sanskrit is an endangered language.  Do we not hear that a particular speicies of a bird, animal or fish was spotted in a remote corner of the forest or ocean which was believed to have become extinct? 

This is what the video tells.  Where there should have been lakhs of such children communicating in Sanskrit there are but a few.  

Government sponsored institutions dedicated to the preservation , protection and promotion of Sanskrit need to be spending on children rather than on scholars.

This might be what Chammu Shastra wanted to convey.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri Achyut-ji,

Yes, that is the reality. It is realistic to start there. 'Not satisfied' is not the expected response when you see something you look for. 

You said, Sanskrit learning should start at an early age. 

I thought, when you see the video, you would say, 'yes, this is how it should be, but in larger numbers', not that you crib, 'this is showing Sanskrit as endangered language, etc., etc., '

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 10:59 AM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is what the video tells.  Where there should have been lakhs of such children communicating in Sanskrit there are but a few.  

It might gladden you to know that, though not in lakhs, the number is not too minute. There are many initiatives such as https://www.agastyagurukulam.org/ , which can easily be (and are) availed by interested parents.

[Gudsoorkar A G]

It was nice to watch this dialogue in Sanskrit. Thanks.

Sent from my iPhone

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[उदयनः]

नमस्ते 

संस्कृतमातृभाषिबालानां सङ्ख्या तु वर्धमाना एव अस्तीति मोदावहो विषयः ।

Why should always government go everything ? What are WE doing as a society ? Are WE teaching our kids Samskrit ? 

After all, Government is an elected body by the people. If the people wish, anything can happen even in the Govt. 

WE as a society have a larger role to play here. 

किमस्माकम् अपत्यैः सह  अस्माभिः संस्कृतेन व्यवह्रियते ? उताहो संस्कृतम् अध्याप्यते ?! संस्कृतज्ञा खलु वयम् !!!

धन्यवादाः 

- उदयनः

Virus-free. www.avg.com

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भावत्कः 

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Assistant Professor | Dept. of Vyakarana | 

National Samskrit University 

Tirupati - 517 507 (A.P) | INDIA | 

Mobile: +9194810 26366 | 

Email : udayan...@gmail.com ; drud...@nsktu.org 

Follow me: https://twitter.com/udayanah

[Achyut Karve]

Read crib instead of crip.

Achyut Karve.

On Sat, Aug 7, 2021, 8:26 AM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Paturiji,

If my submission has hurt you, that was not my intention.   My intention was that investment in huge quantity needs to go into educating children in Sanskrit.  This investment will lead to a cascading need for greater and greater investment in Sanskrit education which will in turn lead to a greater need of Sanskrit scholars in the future.

Has English not become an Indian Language inspite of it being a foreign language?  What was the reason?  It was introduced as a medium of instruction in schools.  The same needs to be done for Sanskrit.  Is there any state or for that matter does the CBSE board recognize Sanskrit as a medium of instruction?  It is only after they recognize it as a medium of instruction that text books will be prepared in Sanskrit and new words from all fields will be Sanskritized.  This is what Chamu Shastry wants to see Sanskrit scholars doing.  If this is not done Sanskrit will continue to remain a classical language and translations will be the medium through which people will try to understand and know Sanskrit literature.

I do not crip.  Had I been give to cripping I would not drafted the bara khadi sutras much less a book on the Mahesh war Sutras which has not been attempted for the last 2500 years.  Academic appreciation is far from what I expect.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

If my submission has hurt you, that was not my intention.   My intention was that investment in huge quantity needs to go into educating children in Sanskrit.  This investment will lead to a cascading need for greater and greater investment in Sanskrit education which will in turn lead to a greater need of Sanskrit scholars in the future.

Has English not become an Indian Language inspite of it being a foreign language?  What was the reason?  It was introduced as a medium of instruction in schools.  The same needs to be done for Sanskrit.  Is there any state or for that matter does the CBSE board recognize Sanskrit as a medium of instruction?  It is only after they recognize it as a medium of instruction that text books will be prepared in Sanskrit and new words from all fields will be Sanskritized.  This is what Chamu Shastry wants to see Sanskrit scholars doing.  If this is not done Sanskrit will continue to remain a classical language and translations will be the medium through which people will try to understand and know Sanskrit literature.

I do not crip.  Had I been give to cripping I would not drafted the bara khadi sutras much less a book on the Mahesh war Sutras which has not been attempted for the last 2500 years.  Academic appreciation is far from what I expect.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Friends,

More importantly Sanskrit studies need to be revived for establishing 'Dharma' and this can only be achieved if children are initiated into Sanskrit at an early age.  

Secondly, teaching a language without recourse to another language can only happen early in the child's life.  As the child grows the child's ability to inculcate a new language independently greatly diminishes.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

With regards,

Achyut

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 10:26 PM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Friends,

More importantly Sanskrit studies need to be revived for establishing 'Dharma' and this can only be achieved if children are initiated into Sanskrit at an early age.  

Secondly, teaching a language without recourse to another language can only happen early in the child's life. 

False. Adults are routinely taught sanskrit using sanskrit (and gestures) in samskrita bhAratI camps. 

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vasukiji,

You are an information savay person.  Can we know what percent of the Indian population declared that they can read, write and speak Sanskrit in the 2011 census?  Is that Sanskrit speaking population increasing or decreasing over the decades?

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

A Care –point that may have to be contemplated on < can read, write and speak Sanskrit >  may be  contemplated on following lines.

 

    [ Note: Before proceeding further, I acknowledge whole heartedly all the work done by many for keeping up the  Samskruth Social awareness and Spread movements for the monumental great work at India and globally for keeping  ‘samskruth interest: socially and technologically  alive in secular india’ and ‘ beyond India. It  deserves all appreciation. In fact, I have been a part and parcel of  this movement and a beneficiary. ]

 

a) Read /Write factor:  Ability to read – write ‘devanagari script’ used generally for  Sanskrit ( in school education and business / governance at large does not give a clear marker for statistics.  Devanagari script is used by many other indian languages. Sanskrit is read-written in non-devanagari scripts.

 

b) Speak factor : Ability to ‘recite- chant’ is not any  equivalent of ‘scale used in census/ schooling / training for social usage-speak factor in society and community ’ for other languages.

Main comparison mode and model, using unarticulated standard to build a public opinion is English / indic regional language/mother tongue (Home/school/ conversational) versus Sanskrit ( bending Bhashaa where the real  target  is  ‘chandas’).  This  issue remains ‘ unaddressed and  not remedied’.  

    

   The above comparison choice is set by, sustained and continued in the past several decades by:

·        by design  as a trap in ‘language-pooling and mix up of social and classical languages,

·        by default to appeal to lay-people  and tap sentiments and emotions  dormant from colonial roots,

·        by preference with hand-in glove work of politicized  language interest in academia,

·        by perpetuation of  mistakes in capturing the  essence and essentials of ‘Paninian-Samskrutham-Standards’,

·        by opportunity-choice to tap  program resource support from the elite who prefer to save the head even when ‘feet is hurt/ cut’.

 

  (  Analysis  of  Current state of Samskruth  and  post-mortem root-cause –analysis may be a luxury for Samskruth at this point !  when technology is capturing the grounds to emerge as ‘Human- Language –Standards- Enforcer’ ; thanks to efforts of ‘computational linguists, AI and MT teams).Good and bad as given reality and outcome is relative and contextual; as a mid-game position in chess or cards!

     

What could be / seems to be  the remedy measure and resource  needs to address for improving Sanskrit- Census-Score : 

                and connected issue : How to restore Guru-kul-Bhashaa standards in Social and School  Literacy ( class room and digital) through NEP ?

                                            Which alone can build and contribute to ‘numbers needed to be reflected in Census report as  Sanskrit- Census-Score ’.    

 

This is still a open question connected to the speed and mode of  NEP 2020 implementation modalities and speed.

Look forward for views from learned  leaders and implementers.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 9:38 AM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Vasukiji,

You are an information savay person.  Can we know what percent of the Indian population declared that they can read, write and speak Sanskrit in the 2011 census? 

I don't have this info.

 

Is that Sanskrit speaking population increasing or decreasing over the decades?

Certainly increasing in recent decades thanks to organizations like Samskrita Bharati - AND NOT due to school instruction or high/ refined paNDitry.

 

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[Achyut Karve]

Is there any Central Govt policy for Sanskrit?  Has Sanskrit ever come up for discussion in the Parliament or in the legislatures of State Govt's.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/schools/new-education-policy-wants-rich-sanskrit-to-start-at-primary-level-120017

New education policy wants ‘rich’ Sanskrit to start at primary level

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sanskrit is one of the languages under 8th schedule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Schedule_to_the_Constitution_of_India

The Eighth Schedule to the Constitution of India lists the official languages of the Republic of India. At the time when the Constitution was enacted, inclusion in this list meant that the language was entitled to representation on the Official Languages Commission,^[1] 

and that the language, here Sanskrit, would be one of the bases that would be drawn upon to enrich Hindi and English, the official languages of the Union.^[2] 

The list has since, however, acquired further significance.

 The Government of India is now under an obligation to take measures for the development of these languages, here Sanskrit, such that "they, here Sanskrit, grow(s) rapidly in richness and become effective means of communicating modern knowledge."^[3]

 In addition, a candidate appearing in an examination conducted for public service is entitled to use any of these languages, here Sanskrit,  as the medium in which he or she answers the paper.^[4]

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Friends,

Here is the pdf of  census 2011 on languages.

The total number of people who have declared that their mother tongue is Sanskrit are around 24000.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Achyut Karve]

https://m.economictimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/why-does-the-census-of-india-focus-on-mother-tongues-how-does-it-make-linguistic-minorities-invisible/articleshow/69178250.cms

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/where-are-the-sanskrit-speakers/article6299433.ece

Has Sanskrit ever been a Mother tongue of any community in India?  To know to read write or speak a language does not necessarily mean that it ought to be an individuals mother tongue.

Is the 2021 census going to enumerate literacy of individuals in various languages as languages have different scripts in India?

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

[Achyut Karve]

Are there any institutions or trusts in India who support and sponsor sanskrit medium primary schools with English and a vernacular language as second and third languages.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Are you starting such a school, Sri Achyut-ji ? 

Are you looking for trusts in India who support and sponsor your school ? 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAGMxpiOVioP5ncHHBwHknP%3DR2wRsY9rNjjgsfLHh-01zb98wKA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

While we are on this question of primary school Sanskrit curriculum, it may be interesting to have a look at this website : 

http://www.devabhasha.in/

[Nagaraj Paturi]

This website has a " Schools we work with" page :

http://www.devabhasha.in/schools-we-work-with/

[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

I have some basic working mode and outlines with ‘ in-house experimentation’ – work going on to carve out  a ‘yoga-samskrutham  : Hybrid School of  Indic languages-  Physical and Digital mode.

 

The working design covers plans to  deliver, support and sponsor  < sanskrit –mother tongue – english>  Language and medium accommodative.

 

The  schema is in the frame work of NEP -2020 –Vision and guidelines.  Work-in-Progress.  Interested are welcome to get in touch off –line.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: 11 August 2021 10:50
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} What should Sanskrit Vidwans be doing for Sanskrit.

 

Are you starting such a school, Sri Achyut-ji ? 

 

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

 

 

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[Achyut Karve]

What is श्रेयस्कर so that Sanskrit gets its due is my question?

To my mind starting a primary school with Sanskrit as the medium of instruction is the only remedy so that in the days to come Sanskrit will stand shoulder to shoulder with other languages if not an inch taller.

The next question is what benefit will accrue?

To my understanding the lack of different academic abilities seen in children at different levels are as a matter of fact not on account of the incapacity of the child but are reflected in the child on account of the language of instruction.  If Sanskrit becomes the language of instruction these inabilities will not surface and the development of the child will go unimpeded. 

Why could Sanskrit not become a language of instruction?

The problem with teaching a child Sanskrit is in the inability of the teacher to teach the child to phonate Sanskrit words correctly.  This problem can be addressed through teaching the recitation of the Maheshwar Sutras together with the Barakhadi Sutras.  Patanjali in his Mahabhashya has said that the Maheshwar Sutras have also been compiled so that Sanskrit speakers become capable of speaking correctly or chastly. 

I have through the past 20 odd years taught many 4th to 5th Std students to read and write.  These children could not learn to read and write mainly because of the faulty barakhadi in vogue.  The moment they were taught the Maheshwar Sutras their ability to discern lingual sounds became astute and in time learnt to read and write.   

Thus from my point of view as well as from experience the moment we switch to Sanskrit children will not only learn to read, write and speak Sanskrit but they will also learn to read, write and speak other languages efficiently.  

I have worked with primary children of vernacular language and have found that children speaking dialects of the formal language tend to suffer the most as their dialect does not allow them to pronounce all the letters in the respective formal languages and thus remain incapable of reading and writing.  We also see that in spite of the widespread proliferation of  formal languages through the education system the dialects still hold ground in the majority of the population thus leading to the deterioration in the standard of education at each level.  

If Sanskrit is introduced at the primary level itself it will bring in meaningfulness into the curriculum as it will improve the standard of understanding of vernacular languages as well as of English.  It will also lead to an improvement in diction of the children. 

Finally, Sanskrit will cease to be the language of a chosen few without any religious or caste riders.

If Chamu Shastri's dream is to materialize there is no way out but to introduce Sanskrit into the education system at the primary level itself i.e., 1st Std.

I would love to initiate and experiment on such an idea but for my age and resources.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/027e01d78e75%24b9c80410%242d580c30%24%40gmail.com.

[Achyut Karve]

If one observes keenly very few children passing out from 10th Std speak  English in spite of having been instructed in English for over ten years.  However when these same children enter the work force one finds that a big chunk of them start conversing in English.  Why so?  

Speaking a language which is not one's mother tongue even after it being one's medium of instruction is a difficult proposition.  

One needs to appreciate that a majority in the population are uniligual, some are bilingual and only a few are multi lingual.  How many countries in the world follow a three language formula?

If Sanskrit is introduced at the first level itself it Wii improve the percentage of bilingual and multi lingual population  which is very important for s country like India.

In short sanskrit offers great flexibility of the tongue to an individual .

With regards,

Achyut karve .

[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste

 

On < What is श्रेयस्कर so that Sanskrit gets its due is my question?     … starting a primary school with Sanskrit as the medium of instruction is the only remedy .. If Chamu Shastri's dream is to materialize……  > :

 

My thoughts shared ( and why the issue is  intricate and important. ) :  Karve ji,  You have raised multi-layered, important, relevant, intrinsically intertwined and intricate  issues for  implementation in ‘given – current-  Indian society’, using a  referential ‘ past –peak of glory’  and ‘ sprinkle of praise from global appreciators’.  All nice and pleasing.   But  Forward driving needs working vehicle with fuel and driver  who can   ‘look forward, drive on given reality of road  and ‘deliver safely.   Use rear view  and side  mirrors  has value and benefits  for a course correction in audit.  But clear looking forward through a clean glass is critical.  One cannot  hope to drive forward looking in rear view mirror and efficient use of reverse gear ! History is not future !

 

Path of Progress as < श्रेयस्कर : abhyudaya- nishreayas> is not  designing actions for recreating history by dismantling current structure.  One is free for their choice of path and actions.

 

The ground reality of ‘Panini- rule regulated language – education- implementation’  needed to understand- practice- benefit from  ‘ Gita embedded Maha-Bharath’ – conversation model ( sambhashana-samvaada) has changed in ‘ Bharat that has become India ( Postcolonial/ Post NEP – policy marker. There are new issues some being colonial legacy and some are techno-linguistic/ techno-commercial legacy.   

 

Todays ‘Sanskrit- teaching: Education –pedagogy model ’ for ‘ NEP 2020 - policy provided Education Implementation Model’  within the ‘ polity- vision ( not political reality / party- preferential agenda)  for tomorrows benefits/  beneficiaries  needs to be derived out of the essence of tradition ( rasa- atmaa) which needs to have a ‘ new physical  reality body, dress and overcoat’ to walk the global terrain of ‘ Languages: Human and Programming’. For this, the two ends  are ‘ Universities ( of Languages and Technologies) at higher end) and  Schools (State and Central regulated)  at other end.

 

The proposed primary school  needs to emerge as a  First Entry - Primary entry point where the early learner ( at 1^st standard)  gets hands on Brahmi-Devanagari- Samskruth based -  Edu-Tech.

The  syllabus design should connect Sanskrit to all Indian  regional mother tongue  (human/  social/ cultural / arts / humanities / science and prayer)  language families, using ‘Brahmi Varna-akshara’ voice model, where ‘ Maheswara –sutra / Barakhadi training needs to be an integral part. This is where restoring the Paninian language model by  three key words:  ‘ Vedanga, Vak-Yoga, Brahmi’  become bench markers in syllabus and teaching methodology design  and delivery through the smart devices. This would make India as a nation which uses a technology that connects all the languages of nation using the root-design of ‘ Bharateeya – Bhashaa:  Bhaarati – Sarasvati’.   Here we need  to design and deliver a  fusion of Samskruth Language – Jnana  with Tantra-jnanan for < Jeevikaa – vyavahara> as  Edu-Tech system’  implementation. This is the wish. Market and Beneficiaries:  See NEP for details.

 

The given reality:  ‘Panini language (Voice Primary  and Supreme) is delivered using  ‘ ‘romanized representation in spelling –primary anglicised mode which need a precondition of  ‘software –app enabled- smart techno-device’ to get trained on a syllabus delivering a  hybrid perspective of ‘what Samskruth was’ – colonial from back and Vedic from further backwards view point.  

The regulators are not the ‘acharyas’ (  no bheeshma-drona –tataa !  any talk of this is a lip sympathy).  The ‘kuru-kshetra’ reality emerges from implementation agencies  guarding the spine, heart and brain of constitution  through departments, budget allocations and ‘Technology funding’. Show the market and changes get aligned. And Education market size and the prize of this war: See NEP for charts for details.  The  real time line to reach the goal is 2025, for India to take care  of < modalities to get श्रेयस्कर output from  Samskrutham: The Paninin language, short represented in colonial model  as Sanskrit !

 

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

 

 

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[Gudsoorkar A G]

Thank you very much Dr Nagaraj for sharing this link.

The above seems to be very effective for primary school children. However, there are some PGs in Sanskrit like me, who can not converse in Sanskrit. There’s plethora of Institutions/Agencies advertising for the purpose.  But, I am unable to decipher which one will really serve.

I request you to suggest some Institution(s) with Online Courses with our Objective to help aspirants like us. Regards.

Sent from my iPhone

On 11-Aug-2021, at 11:07, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

While we are on this question of primary school Sanskrit curriculum, it may be interesting to have a look at this website : 

http://www.devabhasha.in/

<image.png>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJGj9ea%2BahXai0LmD9U_N6_4DAc90FfWOTm6_wVEjEcHtxsa0A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The best and the fastest for conversational Sanskrit is Samskrita Bharati. 

Please contact the nearest center from where you live.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/B4A3D9EB-CB79-4BC7-BC07-40EE3C70BBD4%40googlemail.com.

[Achyut Karve]

One might be wondering why I am presenting the subject this way..

For the information of all since 1995 I am working on why there is so much disparity between students whose score is high and those whose score is low.  My question was why so much disparity?

I started working on students of 5th to 10th grade who had low to very low scores.  Through the years I noticed that these children had poor lingual abilities.  After working for 10 years I concluded that children who were weak in the language of instruction showed poor prognosis for making good lost ground.  Therefore I needed to switch to guide children from 1st grade where I could get time to develop their language skills.  However, teaching 6 year olds is a difficult proposition.  I therefore started living with goats and cows and learnt to befriend them.  Thereafter I learnt the trick of befriending children and started working with them.  What learned people (Scholars) lack is empathy and patience towards their clients (students).  This I even noticed with music Guru's  like Ahmedjan Thirakwa and Pandit Gajananrao Joshi.  While working with grade 1 to grade 4 students I learned to have empathy and patience towards students.  It was here that I tested the efficacy of the Maheshwar Sutras.  To my great surprise the children learnt to read and write vernacular languages as well as English better and faster via the Maheshwara Sutras as compared to teaching the devanagari script letters.

Let all on this list know that instructing the Maheshwar Sutras to primary students is easier than the Devanagari script letters with the rider that the teacher has learnt to recite the Maheshwar Sutras correctly.  Through all these 15 years of my study of the Maheshwara Sutras I have not come across a single Sanskrit literate scholar or teacher who can recite the Maheshwara Sutras correctly. For example one can listen to other youtube videos on the Maheshwara Sutras.  I was teased and ridiculed about my findings when I joined this forum.  For the information of those on the list, I went to present the first copy of my book 'The Atlantis of Sanskrit Phonology' to Saroja Bhate in Pune.  She too thought the same way.  At the first go itself I noticed the apathy of Sanskrit scholars towards the Shiksha. The reason why Sanskrit Scholars can do nothing for Sanskrit is because they cannot teach beginners which is very important given the fact that Sanskrit today is not a spoken language.  Sanskrit scholars fail to appreciate the aesthetic of the Sanskrit language.  

In olden days the Guru used to teach students right from the beginning to the end i.e. from K.G to Post Graduation.  There was a time when a Vedic scholar was tested for recitation by a group of 10 to 12 Pandits before he was  passed.   On the other hand, today a student becomes a qualified scholar by writing an examination.  The reduction of Sanskrit from a spoken language to a written one like Latin or Greek is the root cause for the malady facing Sanskrit.  A mere knowledge of the Devanagari script letters is not sufficient to learn Sanskrit much less to learn to speak Sanskrit.  

We do not make a tree bear fruit.  We only provide the tree with the right niche i.e. provide it with water, fertilizer and keep it exposed to sunlight.  The tree starts bearing fruit.  Similar is the case with students learning Sanskrit.  Here the Shiksha is the Sun.  We cannot afford to neglect it or take it for granted.  

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 10:18 AM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

However, teaching 6 year olds is a difficult proposition.  I therefore started living with goats and cows and learnt to befriend them.  Thereafter I learnt the trick of befriending children and started working with them.  What learned people (Scholars) lack is empathy and patience towards their clients (students). 

That's inspiring. You should post a video demonstrating all the tricks in a YT video.

 

Let all on this list know that instructing the Maheshwar Sutras to primary students is easier than the Devanagari script letters with the rider that the teacher has learnt to recite the Maheshwar Sutras correctly.  Through all these 15 years of my study of the Maheshwara Sutras I have not come across a single Sanskrit literate scholar or teacher who can recite the Maheshwara Sutras correctly.

Oh! Tell me what's wrong with https://voca.ro/1jY8z4GA5ZOc 

 

I was teased and ridiculed about my findings when I joined this forum. 

 

Can you list your findings? One line per finding, no more than 10 lines.

 

given the fact that Sanskrit today is not a spoken language.

Whoever "gave" you this "fact" is wrong. 

 

[Nityanand Misra]

On Friday, 13 August, 2021 at 10:18:22 am UTC+5:30 Achyut Karve wrote:

Let all on this list know that instructing the Maheshwar Sutras to primary students is easier than the Devanagari script letters with the rider that the teacher has learnt to recite the Maheshwar Sutras correctly.  Through all these 15 years of my study of the Maheshwara Sutras I have not come across a single Sanskrit literate scholar or teacher who can recite the Maheshwara Sutras correctly. For example one can listen to other youtube videos on the Maheshwara Sutras.  I was teased and ridiculed about my findings when I joined this forum.  For the information of those on the list, I went to present the first copy of my book 'The Atlantis of Sanskrit Phonology' to Saroja Bhate in Pune.  She too thought the same way.  At the first go itself I noticed the apathy of Sanskrit scholars towards the Shiksha. The reason why Sanskrit Scholars can do nothing for Sanskrit is because they cannot teach beginners which is very important given the fact that Sanskrit today is not a spoken language.  Sanskrit scholars fail to appreciate the aesthetic of the Sanskrit language.  

Dear Sh. Achyut Karve Ji

You are making bold claims without any evidence whatsoever. I request you to please help us with at least the following

1) a sound recording in your voice of the Maheshvara-Sutras so that others learn what you you have in mind when you say correct pronunciation 

2) a brief summary of errors you have noticed in pronunciation of vowels or consonants by Sanskrit literate scholars/teachers in the Mahehvara Sutras. Please be specific: which sutras are pronounced incorrectly as per you, and which syllables in those sutras.

Without this, I am afraid, your views are not likely to be taken seriously.

Thanks, Nityananda

 

[Achyut Karve]

One might be wondering why I am presenting the subject this way..

For the information of all since 1995 I am working on why there is so much disparity between students whose score is high and those whose score is low.  My question was why so much disparity?

I started working on students of 5th to 10th grade who had low to very low scores.  Through the years I noticed that these children had poor lingual abilities.  After working for 10 years I concluded that children who were weak in the language of instruction showed poor prognosis for making good lost ground.  Therefore I needed to switch to guide children from 1st grade where I could get time to develop their language skills.  However, teaching 6 year olds is a difficult proposition.  I therefore started living with goats and cows and learnt to befriend them.  Thereafter I learnt the trick of befriending children and started working with them.  What learned people (Scholars) lack is empathy and patience towards their clients (students).  This I even noticed with music Guru's  like Ahmedjan Thirakwa and Pandit Gajananrao Joshi.  While working with grade 1 to grade 4 students I learned to have empathy and patience towards students.  It was here that I tested the efficacy of the Maheshwar Sutras.  To my great surprise the children learnt to read and write vernacular languages as well as English better and faster via the Maheshwara Sutras as compared to teaching the devanagari script letters.

Let all on this list know that instructing the Maheshwar Sutras to primary students is easier than the Devanagari script letters with the rider that the teacher has learnt to recite the Maheshwar Sutras correctly.  Through all these 15 years of my study of the Maheshwara Sutras I have not come across a single Sanskrit literate scholar or teacher who can recite the Maheshwara Sutras correctly. For example one can listen to other youtube videos on the Maheshwara Sutras.  I was teased and ridiculed about my findings when I joined this forum.  For the information of those on the list, I went to present the first copy of my book 'The Atlantis of Sanskrit Phonology' to Saroja Bhate in Pune.  She too thought the same way.  At the first go itself I noticed the apathy of Sanskrit scholars towards the Shiksha. The reason why Sanskrit Scholars can do nothing for Sanskrit is because they cannot teach beginners which is very important given the fact that Sanskrit today is not a spoken language.  Sanskrit scholars fail to appreciate the aesthetic of the Sanskrit language.  

In olden days the Guru used to teach students right from the beginning to the end i.e. from K.G to Post Graduation.  There was a time when a Vedic scholar was tested for recitation by a group of 10 to 12 Pandits before he was  passed.   On the other hand, today a student becomes a qualified scholar by writing an examination.  The reduction of Sanskrit from a spoken language to a written one like Latin or Greek is the root cause for the malady facing Sanskrit.  A mere knowledge of the Devanagari script letters is not sufficient to learn Sanskrit much less to learn to speak Sanskrit.  

We do not make a tree bear fruit.  We only provide the tree with the right niche i.e. provide it with water, fertilizer and keep it exposed to sunlight.  The tree starts bearing fruit.  Similar is the case with students learning Sanskrit.  Here the Shiksha is the Sun.  We cannot afford to neglect it or take it for granted.  

You can watch this youtube video.

https://youtu.be/yGy7f4WhKjU

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Achyut Karve]

I thank Nityanandji for his post.  It made me think how I can or should address his doubts about my credentials.  The following is the answer.  

What does the sutra आदर्शनं लोपः mean?  Does it mean what is not heard is dropped or does it mean what is not seen is dropped? Scholars need to answer the question: how is a word or letter seen?  What is that which can be seen in an akshara?  I am not answering this question because scholars will again allege that I have copied it from somewhere?  If I get the answer which I seek I will be ever  more thankful to the individual who provides the correct answer either as a reference or as his own.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

[Nityanand Misra]

On Sunday, 15 August, 2021 at 12:05:25 pm UTC+5:30 Achyut Karve wrote:

I thank Nityanandji for his post.  It made me think how I can or should address his doubts about my credentials.  The following is the answer.  

Namaste, h. Achyut Karve Ji

I was not doubting your credentials in my email. I was merely asking for two things to back your claim (1) a sound recording of Maheshvara Sutras in your voice (2) a list of specific errors you have noticed in pronunciation of Maheshvara Sutras. If (1) is too much for you to arrange, you may please provide (2) for now.

 

What does the sutra आदर्शनं लोपः mean? 

अदर्शनं लोपः, not आदर्शनं लोपः. 

 

Does it mean what is not heard is dropped or does it mean what is not seen is dropped?

As the root दृश् means both “to see” and “to perceive, to know”, the word दर्शनम् can have multiple meanings, and so can अदर्शनम्. This being the context of shabda-shastra, it clearly does not have to do anything with “seeing” (just like the sense of दृश्  in सा निशा पश्यतो मुनेः, BG 2.69). So अदर्शनम् here would mean “non-perception” or more specifically “non-audibility”, (taking दर्शनम्  = दृश्  + ल्युट्), and “non-experssion” or more specifically “non-articulation” (taking दर्शनम्  = दृश् + णिच् + ल्युट्). You may refer Kashika, Nyasa, Siddhantakaumudi, etc. on this, or the English translation of Ashtadhyayi by Rama Nath Sharma. I am not sure if this is the answer you seek, but I answered anyway.

Now can you please answer my questions? 

Thanks, Nityananda

[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

If (1) is too much for you to arrange,

youtu.be/yGy7f4WhKjU?t=249

[Achyut Karve]

Ujjwal Rajput has already given the link to the youtube video.  For the rest here is a pdf of the book 'Revealing the Atlantis of Sanskrit Phonology' in English and a translation (not word to word) of the same book in Marathi titled 'संस्कृत व मराठी उच्चार शास्त्र'.  I would like scholars to critically read the book.  I am open to criticism.  

The book is a product of my tryst with the Maheshwar Sutras and the Damaru and its fallout.

At the cost of repetition here is the link for the youtube video.

https://youtu.be/yGy7f4WhKjU

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 at 17:04, उज्ज्वल राजपूत <ujjwal....@gmail.com> wrote:

If (1) is too much for you to arrange,

youtu.be/yGy7f4WhKjU?t=249

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Nityanandji,

I hope you have seen the video on YouTube.  

If you have seen it I would like to hear your comments on the same.

अदर्शनं लोपः Not seeing what, was my question. The answer I was seeking was that since an akshara is a sound it is a subject of the ear.  However as much as we can see outside we should also be in a position to see inside the mouth and so we should be in a position to see the place of articulation of each and every letter in the mouth.  Similarly we should be in a position to see the place of articulation of every letter in a word while phonating  it.  The reason why people cannot see the place of articulation of every letter in a word is that they suffer from प्रयत्न दोष as well as because the word is not correctly formulated.  

I saw your video.  The word योग is imcomplete as the visarga has been dropped or it has been uttered without a pratyaya.  Hence there arises doubt regarding whether the अ of ग has been uttered or not.  It being so all the letters in the word योग get corrupted and so it becomes impossible to determine the place of articulation of each and every letter in the word and obviously therefore people rely on what they hear and so have doubts.

In short each and every letter in Sanskrit words (सूप् तिङन्तम् पदम्) are objects of darshan (their place of articulation can be seen).

With regards,

Achyut Karve.