The traditional method of self-study of Shaastra?

[Satyan Sharma]

Namaste 

I would like to know if there is a shaastric method of self-study of shaastras and where can I find it.

Regards

Satyan

[S. L. Abhyankar]

नमस्ते श्रीमन् सत्यन्-शर्म !

By my line of thinking the first line of गीता 04'34 summarizes the science of learning, including self-study. अध्ययनम् 

The second line summarizes the science of Teaching. अध्यापनम् 

The verse is a summary of Theory of education शिक्षाशास्त्रम् 

Comments are solicited 

For more details see my YouTube video <https://youtu.be/Tth1S3b4hpg> 

More of my videos on Sanskrit at my channel <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHnw6UVN1Q6wLgEsbuyuMVA> 

[Gopal Gopinath]

Namaste,

I have found these two articles of interest on a related topic. Hope these help you by pointing to some direction... 

..gopal

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[V Subrahmanian]

The term 'svaadhyaya', as I have understood, is the study in the manner prescribed, of one's own shaakhaa of the Veda. The 'sva' refers to that aspect.  The shAkhA is the one his father studied, and the one his father's father studied, and so on. It is not, as far as I have heard, any self-study.  In the case of Yoga, I have read, it is the study of texts relating to adhyatma, spirituality, and also japa. I have not heard the meaning 'self-study' (without the help of a teacher) to be the meaning of the term 'svaadhyaya.'

warm regards

subrahmanian.v  

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

Rightly said from the shastaic point of view of Vedadhyayana. Generally learning, this has been said "गुरुशुश्रूषया विद्या पुष्कलेन धनेन वा । अथवा विद्यया विद्या चतुर्थी नोपलभ्यते ॥" and there is no other way to learn oneself. 

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[M V S Siva Prasad]

Respected scholars ,

                   I feel the procedure of self study was there in the purani texts also. 

Although the system to be on guru shishya mode only but some instances shows us that self study is also a possible one . 

                  The lord Krishna's words to uddhavaji about his gurus in nature also helps this discussion. 

                The sadhana can be done for self but not the scriptures here. 

   The story which was in purana helps this that the education or the vidya are to be studied under a guru only. These are the words of INDRA to a tapaswi. I don't know the exact name and the part where it was written in mahabharat but it was in mahabharat only. 

          If any mistake from me scholars are requested to forgive me for the mistake. 

       Thank you.

       

 

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

In Purana, there is Ekalavya who studied by himself. But story goes he had himself practicing before a an idol of Dronacharya. He considered himself as discipline of Dronacharya and not himself studied.

This is an exception. 

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[shankara]

Namaste,

On a lighter note - If it is possible to study the sastras by oneself without a teacher, it would not be necessary to post this query here.

Someone once asked Swami Chinmayananda: "Swamiji, whatever you teach is there in the books. What do I need a Guru for?"

Swami Chinmayananda: “Why don’t you ask this question to the books? The very fact that you are asking these questions clearly shows that we need teachers to teach us."

regards
shankara

--

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Swadhyaya is an essential part of growth in the absence of which parrots are born who through time lose touch with the environment which is continuously moving forward.  Development is only possible when a student has completed his education under an able guru and thereafter engages himself in swadhyaya which takes  him to greater heights.

What happens in the absence of swadhyaya?   Here is a quote from Marx's Theses on Fauerbauch.

"The materialist doctrine concerning the changing of circumstances and upbringing forgets that circumstances are changed by men and that it is essential to educate the educator himself. This doctrine must, therefore, divide society into two parts, one of which is superior to society.

The coincidence of the changing of circumstances and of human activity or self-changing can be conceived and rationally understood only as revolutionary practice."

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[Bharat Chandra Dasa]

svadhyaya is also "yathochita mantrajapa"

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

svadhaya = स्वध्याय and svaadhyaaya = स्वाध्याय are two different things. स्वाध्याय is used in a restricted sense in upanisags. And not as you like.

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[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

I remember one example given by Sri Sringeri Swamiji. One man was trying to learn to make Dosa. He was learning from a book. The book said first heat the iron pan on stove for 5 mins till it becomes hot. Then apply oil on it. He followed it.  He heated the pan and then tried to apply oil with fingers. His fingers got burnt. This is why we need Guru to teach us. Because there will invariably be gaps in bookish knowledge.

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Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[K S Kannan]

In yogic texts, svAdhyAya is thus defined:

वेदान्त-शतरुद्रीय-प्रणवादि-जपं बुधाः ।

सत्त्व-शुद्धिकरं पुंसां स्वाध्यायं परिचक्षते ॥

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--

Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[V Subrahmanian]

On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 2:07 PM K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:

In yogic texts, svAdhyAya is thus defined:

वेदान्त-शतरुद्रीय-प्रणवादि-जपं बुधाः ।

सत्त्व-शुद्धिकरं पुंसां स्वाध्यायं परिचक्षते ॥

Thanks for citing this verse. It is found in the Kurmapuranam too and is cited by Sri Viśveśvara Saraswati (Guru of Sri Madhusudana Saraswati) in the Yatidharma sangraha, a text that is followed by the Sringeri Peetham in the sannyāsa-related rituals and other practices of sannyāsins. 

It is also found in the Garuda Puranam as cited in the Shabdakalpadruma:

https://sa.wikisource.org/s/ax0

गीतासारः, पुं, (गीतासु सारः गीतानां वेदान्तादि-

शास्त्राणां वा सारो यत्र इति वा । मुक्त्यर्थं संक्षे-

पेण समस्तयोगज्ञानादिप्रतिपादकशास्त्राणां

सारार्थो गीतो यत्र इति तात्पर्य्यार्थः ।) अर्ज्जुनं

प्रति श्रीकृष्णोक्तमुक्त्यर्थाष्टाङ्गादियोगः । यथा, --

श्रीभगवानुवाच ।

....

वेदान्तशतरुद्रीयप्रणवादिजपं बुधाः ॥

सत्त्वशुद्धिकरं पुंसां स्वाध्यायं परिचक्षते ।  

इति गारुडे २३४ अध्यायः ॥ * ॥

regards

subrahmanian.v

[R Balagopal]

Namaste,

Even if one has learned Sanskrit, self study, that is , without the help of a 'shrotriya brahmnishta' is abhorred. 'Mimmasa' is the special science of studying the Vedas. Often the words used in the context will have a meaning only a Guru in the 'sampRadaaya' will know.

Mundaka Upanishad 1.2.12 is clear about this. Firstly live life well, and know the futility of pursuing worldly things. Then when one will look for someone who will teach him about a defectless goal. That Guru will be  not only well versed in  the 'shaastRas' but also a 'brahmanishta'. Who knows what he speaks. One who walks the talk. 

Regards

Balagopal

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

I think Yavakrida was the tapasvi who tried to learn the Vedas by sheer tapasya alone.

Indra however clearly told him that a teacher was essential for this.

The story appears in the Tirtha-yatra parva where the sage Lomasa tells this story to Dharma-raja Yudhisthira.

Tapasya in this context however would not count as "self-study"...

Yavakrida in the story obtains what he wanted despite Indra's repeated warnings and this results in overweaning pride that results in his own destruction.

On Monday, September 23, 2019 at 7:57:10 AM UTC+5:30, M V S SIVA PRASAD wrote:

Respected scholars ,

                   I feel the procedure of self study was there in the purani texts also. 

Although the system to be on guru shishya mode only but some instances shows us that self study is also a possible one . 

                  The lord Krishna's words to uddhavaji about his gurus in nature also helps this discussion. 

                The sadhana can be done for self but not the scriptures here. 

   The story which was in purana helps this that the education or the vidya are to be studied under a guru only. These are the words of INDRA to a tapaswi. I don't know the exact name and the part where it was written in mahabharat but it was in mahabharat only. 

          If any mistake from me scholars are requested to forgive me for the mistake. 

       Thank you.

       

 

On Mon 23 Sep, 2019, 6:56 AM V Subrahmanian, <v.subr...@gmail.com> wrote:

The term 'svaadhyaya', as I have understood, is the study in the manner prescribed, of one's own shaakhaa of the Veda. The 'sva' refers to that aspect.  The shAkhA is the one his father studied, and the one his father's father studied, and so on. It is not, as far as I have heard, any self-study.  In the case of Yoga, I have read, it is the study of texts relating to adhyatma, spirituality, and also japa. I have not heard the meaning 'self-study' (without the help of a teacher) to be the meaning of the term 'svaadhyaya.'

warm regards

subrahmanian.v  

On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 2:00 AM Gopal Gopinath <summ...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste,

I have found these two articles of interest on a related topic. Hope these help you by pointing to some direction... 

..gopal

On Sun, Sep 22, 2019 at 10:47 AM Satyan Sharma <satya...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste 

I would like to know if there is a shaastric method of self-study of shaastras and where can I find it.

Regards

Satyan

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Is Vedic studies also not formal education.  

It being so instruction is its root.  Swadhyaya only begins after one has completed one's formal education.  

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

I would like to know if there is a shaastric method of self-study of shaastras and where can I find it.

                                                                     ------ Vid Satyan Sharma

For वेद , one has to approach -- समित्पाणिः गुरुमेवाभिगच्छेत् - a गुरु and to  learn through श्रुति । After that one has to

do स्वाध्याय (Panini lists this term in द्वारादि -- ’ द्वारादीनां च ’ 7-3-4 - for ऐजागम --see महाभाष्यम् for details) ।

Now the question about शास्त्राणि --

This aspect is discussed under पृषोदरादीनि यथोपदिष्टम् ( पा 6-3-109) --

Panini says -- certain शब्द-s are not analyzed  by me but they are there in व्यवहार -- पृषोदर - जीमूत etc - all such शब्द-s,

if employed by शिष्ट-s of आर्यावर्त ,  can be taken as प्रमाणम्  ।

Now , Patanjali , while drawing  boundaries of आर्यावर्त  , also  gives the  extraordinary qualifications  of  शिष्ट-s -- among them---

किञ्चिदन्तरेण कस्याश्चिद्विद्यायाः पारं गताः तत्र भवन्तः शिष्टाः 

कैयटः ---

किञ्चिदन्तरेणेति । विनैवाभियोगादिना सर्वविद्यापारगाः , ते हि साधुत्वपरिज्ञाने प्रमाणम् ।

नागेशः --

.... किञ्चिदन्तरेणेति । तद्व्याचष्टे -- विनैवाभियोगादिनेति । अभियोगः गुरूपदेशः । आदिना अभ्यासादिः । कस्याश्चित् इत्यस्यार्थमाह -- सर्वविद्येति। अव्ययानामनेकार्थत्वादिति भावः । तपोबलादेव शब्दतः अर्थतश्च प्रतिभातसर्वविद्याः इति तात्पर्यम् ।

The शिष्ट-s learnt most of the विद्या-s  without अभियोग / गुरूपदेश - अभ्यास etc but they had had तपोबलम् !

Hari in वाक्यपदीयम् (ब्रह्मकाण्डः - 37 , 38 - quoted by Kaiyata ) explains --

आविर्भूतप्रकाशानां अनुपप्लुतचेतसाम् ।

अतीतानागतज्ञानं प्रत्यक्षान्न विशिष्यते ॥

अतीन्द्रियानसंवेद्यान् पश्यन्त्यार्षेण चक्षुषा ।

ये भावान् , वचनं तेषां नानुमानेन बाध्यते ॥

अनुपप्लुतचेतसाम् = whose minds are not affected with रजस् and तमस् ; प्रत्यक्षात् = from the normal perception , like that of 

ours ; आर्षेण चक्षुषा = with योगिप्रत्यक्षम् ; भावान् = पदार्थान् - things .

The term अभियोग is employed many times by Jaimini in पूर्वमीमांसासूत्र-s . तदुक्तम् अभियुक्तैः - is frequently used .

Take this line -- 

first one has to get good command on व्याकरणम् - then it is possible to understand other शास्त्र-s and दर्शन-s - the task becomes easier  with योग and तपस् । 

It is not possible to study all विद्या-s from गुरु(s) -- even a single शास्त्रम्  cannot be completed under a गुरु । So one has to

do self study to some extent .

In my case -- I learnt कृष्णयजुर्वेद ( some portions - संहिता - रुद्रम् - आरण्यकम् - काठकभागः - उपनिषत् etc ) with my father,

Subrahmanyam , and another गुरु in वेदपाठशाला - श्री लक्ष्मणावधानी ।

Rest of वेद-s / उपनिषत्-s I studied on my own .

व्याकरणम्  - ज्योतिषम् (जातकभागः) - वेदान्तः - न्यायः ---- I studied with गुरु-s .

शिक्षा - छन्दस् - कल्पः - निरुक्तम् - मीमांसा - वैशेषिकम् - योगः - सांख्यम् - अर्थशास्त्रम् - आयुर्वेदः - गान्धर्ववेदः - तन्त्रम् etc -- I studied on my own .

In महावाक्यविचार , I clearly stated this --

वेदे वेदाङ्गनिचये दर्शनानां समुच्चये ।

स्वमनीषाभियोगाप्तविवेकः सुपरिश्रमी ॥

महावाक्यविचारं च सुब्रह्मण्यसुधीरयम् ।

व्यातेने विदुषां प्रीत्यै प्रीयतां स महेश्वरः ॥

(वेदे इति जात्येकवचनम् -- वेदेषु इत्यर्थः )

So one can go for self study of शास्त्र-s provided he is  qualified !!

धन्यो’स्मि

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Blog: Koradeeyam.blogspot.in 

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[K S Kannan]

तत्-तद्-उत्प्रेक्षमाणानां पुराणैर् आगमैर् विना ।

अनुपासित-वृद्धानां विद्या नातिप्रसीदति ! ॥

In Ayurveda they rail at one who is

युक्त्यागम-बहिष्कृतः where

आगमो ह्याप्तवचनम् |

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[V Subrahmanian]

On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 10:20 PM K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:

तत्-तद्-उत्प्रेक्षमाणानां पुराणैर् आगमैर् विना ।

अनुपासित-वृद्धानां विद्या नातिप्रसीदति ! ॥

 

Chandogya Upanishad 4.9.3

श्रुतꣳ ह्येव मे भगवद्दृशेभ्य आचार्याद्धैव विद्या विदिता साधिष्ठं प्रापतीति तस्मै हैतदेवोवाचात्र ह न किञ्चन वीयायेति वीयायेति ॥ ३ ॥   

Narada, who was a master of innumerable sciences, approached sage Sanatkumara with the above words filled with humility: I have heard from exalted persons like you that 'Vidya, only when obtained from an Acharya, will be fruitful.'

regards

subrahmanian.v

[K S Kannan]

प्रापतीति

has  a variant reading viz.

प्रापद्-इति.

But I somehow prefer the first one.

The Present Tense is not unoften used in the sense of

what is universally/perpetually true.

In the Vedic, the Past is often symbolic of the Future also.

Comparable to - if it happened then, it can happen now too.

Cf. What man has done, man can do.

पूर्वेभिर् ऋषिभिर्...नूतनैर् उत : Grounds for optimism.

Philosophically, what is siddha once was sAdhya.

The कृत्  has an inheritance of the  properties of तिङ्.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

How is the role of the Guru different from than that of a potter?

The potter has a choice over what kind and mix of soil he needs to make a pot.  However in the case of a Guru he has no choice.  His task is even more complex.  He has to first make the student eligible to receive instruction before he actually delivers anything to him.

So many a times even if the guru is well versed in his subject it is of no use if he is unable to make the student eligible for the instruction.

In short merely having learnt under a guru does not make one eligible as the student might not be fit for carrying forward the tradition in the first instance. 

It is for this reason that Shiksha has been given its due importance in our tradition which is being overlooked now-a-days.

With regards

Achyut Karve.

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[Madhav Deshpande]

A beautiful answer is provided by Bhavabhūti in his Uttara-Rāma-Carita:

वितरति गुरुः प्राज्ञे विद्यां यथैव तथा जडे 

न तु खलु तयोर्ज्ञाने शक्तिं करोत्यपहन्ति वा । 

भवति हि पुनर्भूयान् भेदः फलं प्रति तद्यथा 

प्रभवति शुचिर्बिम्बग्राहे मणिर्न मृदादयः ॥

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[V Subrahmanian]

आचार्यात्पादमादत्ते   पादं शिष्यः स्वमेधया ।
पादं सब्रह्मचारिभ्यः   पादं कालक्रमेण च ॥

The student receives a quarter (of her learning) from the teacher, a quarter by way of her intelligence,
a quarter from her classmates, and a quarter through the course of time.

regards

subrahmanian.v

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[K S Kannan]

I just recollected vitarati guruH verse given by Prof. Deshpande,

but was answering another mail.

Nobody is born as a clean slate, and therefore,

rather than the analogy of the pot and the potter,

that of the plant and the gardener may be more apposite

in the case of the student and the teacher.

The word kindergarten that way is somewhat more reflective of the real situation.

That is not to imply by any means that the current kindergarten schooling is being recommended.

No s'oka if vidyA is imparted to su-s'is"ya

- is what Kalidasa clearly declares.

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[K S Kannan]

मृदां चयः

is the pATha I have come across

(in lieu of the last word of the verse

cited above by Prof. Deshpande).

Meaning more or less the same.

But the "singularity" of the jaDa is maintained better in this pATha (!).

However, the plethora of the jaDa-s very well reflected in the other pATha.

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Swadhyaya as the process of actualization/realization of one's own Guru in onself?

With regards,

Achyut Karve

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[Venkata Sriram]

Beautiful post Pujya Korada-ji...the last sentence is the highlight. Just to add to your wonderful post:

चतुर्भिश्च प्रकारैः विद्योपयुक्ता भवति । आगमकालेन, स्वाध्यायकालेन​, प्रवचनकालेन​, व्यवहारकालेनेति ।

 

कैयट comments the above as:

 

आगमकालः – ग्रहणकालः (learning from AchArya) ;

स्वाध्यायकालः - अभ्यासकालः (self-practice);

प्रवचनकालः - अध्यापनकालः (teaching);

व्यवहारकालः – यज्ञे कर्मणि (practical application through karma-kANDa)

If the स्वाध्यायः is in the right direction (as directed by AchArya), the sAdhaka gets the directions / guidance / teachings mysteriously through dreams even after passing away of his preceptor.  This has been the case with couple of our known scholars who used to receive the teachings in transcendental plane when the wavelength of spiritual frequency matches. The teaching continues....

rgs,

sriram 

[Hnbhat B.R.]

अधीतिबोधाचरणप्रचारणैः दशाश्चतस्रः प्रणयन्नुपाधिभिः । 

चतुर्दशत्त्वं कृतवान् कुतः स्वयं न वेद्मि विघ्नासु चतुर्दशस्वयम्।।

इति नैषधे।

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

One needs to distinguish between स्व अध्ययन and swadhyaya.  The former is self study whilst the later is not.

Swadhyaya is a step in क्रियायोग.

 "तपः स्वाध्यायेश्वरप्रणिधानानि क्रियायोगः" 

Yoga Sutras - Pada 2 - Sutra 1

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

प्रणवगायत्रीप्रभृतीनां मन्त्राणामध्ययनं स्वाध्यायःl

Where is the definition of स्व अध्ययन  in traditional shastra study  as you have dedined as self study? This was the question:

"if there is a shaastric method of self-study of shaastras and where can I find it."

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[Dr ramanath]

Dear Scholars,
swadhyayat ma pramada- Svadhyaya is not going to a library and reading
anything that is there. It is a different thing altogether. Svadhyaya
is sacred study, a study of one's own self, 'Sva-adhyaya', or rather,
a study of anything that is connected with the nature of one's own
self, connected with the goal of life. In the context of the aim of
Yoga -Self-realisation. It is sacred study that we call Svadhyaya and
not the reading of any book for the purpose of information merely.
With regards

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>>>> .

>>>>
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--
Dr. Ramanath Pandey,
Research Officer,
Oriental Institute of the M S University of Baroda,
Member, BoD
World Congress, International Society for Universal Dialogue, ISUD,
Grass, Austria,
Hon. Secretary, Indian Society for Indic Studies( InSIS)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPsAsYAF6d0
https://drpsect.org.in
https://insis.drpsect.org.in

[Venkata Sriram]

स्वाध्यायो ब्रह्मयज्ञः - शतपथ ब्राह्मणम् (१.५.६.२)

The answers should be supported with शास्त्रप्रमाणं which should be based on श्रुति and युक्ति.  

[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste Bhat ji

 

(1)  What I am seeing is a conceptual understanding, association of practices, instructions and technical discipline specific definitions. I seem to be missing the ' samaasa' construction of   'स्वाध्याय' . All this would not be necessary if the entire term ' 'स्वाध्याय ' is taken as a single unit.  

 

Definition is  user provided in a discipline specific context ( = paribhashaa).   Derivation is based on process- (  Vyaakarana- pada - prakriyaa).

 

(2) How would one proceed to break the samaasa of 'स्वाध्याय ?

   One may split the units for convenience  as  

(1)  स्व + अध्याय = स्व -अधि- (आ) -अय (न)     where the ' literal, lexical meaning of the  units   सु-अधि-अय [Two upasargas and one dhaatu] /अय (न) [ derivative of dhaatu] need to be explained.

 

  For argument sake, when one 'sees / hears ' a ' second hidden ' (आ) ' , the explanation of the term becomes more expansive, inclusive and unifies all the  concepts, associated practices and technicalities of practice. Here स्वाध्याय  would be  सु + (आ) -अधि - (आ) - अय / अयन. OR  स्व + (आ) -अधि - (आ) - अय / अयन. What would be the meaning associations for the unit ' स्व ' ?? This    need to be elaborated. 

 

Regards

 

BVK Sastry

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[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste

Just adding the quote of relevance between upanishads and Patanjali, from Gita 17th chapter where ' Swaadhyaaya' is listed under ' Vangmayam Tapah':

अनुद्वेगकरं वाक्यं, सत्यं, प्रिय-हितं च यत् । स्वाध्यायाभ्यसनं चैव  वाङ्मयं तप  उच्यते ॥

Regards

BVK Sastry

-----Original Message-----
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dr ramanath
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 9:51 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The traditional method of self-study of Shaastra?

Dr. Ramanath Pandey,

Research Officer,

Oriental Institute of the M S University of Baroda,

Member, BoD

World Congress, International Society for Universal Dialogue, ISUD,

Grass, Austria,

Hon. Secretary,  Indian Society for Indic Studies( InSIS)

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPsAsYAF6d0

https://drpsect.org.in

https://insis.drpsect.org.in

--

[R Balagopal]

Namaste,

The 'swaadhyaaya' mentioned in BG 17.5 (anudvekakaram..) is 'self study' of the scriptures (for 'atma jnaanam'  etc) or of the 'recitation' of the vedic mantRas only?

Contextually it must be the recitation as it is said as the austerity of speech (vachikam, kaRmedriyam). Because the study of the 'SELF' per se involves overall austerities aka 'sadhana chatushtaya shatka samppanna' ('jnaanam' is of the mind, 'jnAnedriyam).

Regards

Balagopal

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

स्वाध्यायाभ्यसनं वेदाभ्यासश्च Commentary of Shridharaswamy

शारीरवत्स्वाध्यायाभ्यसनं च यथाविधिवेदाभ्यासश्च Madhusudana Saraswathi

स्वाध्यायाभ्यसनं चैव प्राङ्युखत्वं पवित्रपाणित्वमित्यादिविधानमनतिक्रम्य स्वाध्यायस्यावर्तनं च वाङ्गयं वाक्प्राचुर्येण प्रस्तुतास्मिन्निति वाङ्ग्यं वाक्प्रधानमित्यर्थः। Commentary of Dhanapathy

स्वाध्यायाभ्यसनम् इति जपयज्ञोक्तिः। Commentary of Vedanta Deshika

प्राङ्मुखत्वं पवित्रपाणित्वमित्यादिविधानमनतिक्रम्य स्वाध्यायस्यावर्तनमपि वाङ्मये तपस्यन्तर्भवतीत्याह Commentary by Anandagiri on ShankaraBhashya

Now you can decide yourself what these commentators mean by सावाध्यायभ्यसन in the Gita verse 17.15 whether they mean self study by ,स्वाध्याय. Man others have quoted in the context of Yoga Sutra.

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

स्वाध्यायः, पुं, (सुष्ठु आवृत्य अध्यायः वेदाध्ययनमिति ।) आवृत्य वेदाध्ययनम् । इति

“स्वाध्यायो जप इत्युक्तो वेदाध्ययनकर्म्मणि ।”

इति शब्दरत्नावली ॥

द्वे आवृत्य वेदाध्ययने । सु सुकृताय आवृत्य अध्यायोऽधीतिः स्वाध्यायः। इङो घञ् । जपनं

जपः  घञि जापश्च । इति भरतः ॥

 इति शब्दकल्पद्रुमः। 

अध्यायन्यायोद्यावसंहाराधारावयाश्च" 3.3.122.अधि+इङ् अध्ययने इति धातोर्घञ् संज्ञायां निपतितः।

"अधीयते अस्मिनिति अध्यायः।" काशिका

The problem  with स्व+अथ्याय = स्वाध्याय or सु+आ+अध्याय has been discussed in Kashika in Ashtadhyayi on द्वारादीनां च  7|3|4 both where preferred 

 शोभनो ऽध्यायः , स्वो ऽध्यायः स्वाध्यायः इति for including in द्वारादि। in the first it should have one आ in between सु and अध्याय.

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

स्वाध्यायः

वेदः - व्याकरणम् - पूर्वमीमांसा - योगानुशासनम् - भगवद्गीता

Vid Hari Narayana Bhatta has given a number of quotations .

तैत्तिरीयारण्यकम् (2-15 , स्वाध्यायब्राह्मणम् ) --

स्वाध्यायो’ध्येतव्यः ( यं यं क्रतुमधीते तेन तेनास्येष्टं भवति ) 

The above sentence is the base of पूर्वमीमांसादर्शनम्  । 

स्वाध्यायः  वेदः  अध्येतव्यः  । स्वाध्यायः स्वशाखाध्यायः इति नागेशः -- but  मीमांसक-s say it refers to complete वेद

--

वेदस्याध्ययनं सर्वं गुर्वध्ययनपूर्वकम् ।

वेदाध्ययनसामान्यात् अधुनाध्ययनं यथा ॥

’आम्नायस्य क्रियार्थत्वात् आनर्थक्यमतदर्थानाम् ’ (जैमिनिसूत्रम् , पू मी )

मीमांसान्यायप्रकाश explains --

न चेष्टापत्तिः , अध्ययनविध्युपात्तत्वेन आनर्थक्यानुपपत्तेः ( i e अर्थवादवाक्यानाम् ) । तथा हि - ’ स्वाध्यायो’ध्येतव्यः इत्यध्ययनविधिः सकलस्य

वेदस्य अध्ययनकर्तव्यतां बोधयन् सर्वो वेदः प्रयोजनवदर्थपर्यवसायीति सूचयति, निरर्थकस्य अध्ययनानुपपत्तेः ।

वेदमेवाभ्यसेन्नित्यं यथाकालमतन्द्रितः ।

तं ह्याहुः परं धर्मम् उपधर्मो’'न्य उच्यते ॥ मनुस्मृतिः , 4-147

व्याकरणम् --

Panini  lists the term स्वाध्याय (also स्वग्राम and स्व ) under द्वारादि -- द्वारादीनां च (7-3-4) -- here is महाभाष्यम् ---

कः पुनरर्हति स्वाध्यायशब्दं द्वारादिषु पठितुम् , एवं किल पठ्येत -   स्वमध्ययनं स्वाध्याय इति । तच्च न । सुष्ठु वा अध्ययनं स्वाध्यायः

(शोभनं वा अध्ययनं स्वाध्यायः । अथापि स्वम् अध्ययनं स्वाध्यायः ) एवमपि न दोषः । अचामादेरिति वर्तते ।

काशिका says listing ' स्वाध्याय ’ in द्वारादि is अनर्थकम् -- Patanjali supports Panini |

Although some derivation is offered for the term स्वाध्याय it is better taken as a रूढिशब्द or योगरूढि -- योगाद्रूढिः बलीयसी -

रूढिर्योगम् अपहरति ।

सर्वदर्शनसंग्रह explains --

अर्थानुसन्धानपूर्वकमन्त्रजपादिः इति नारदपञ्चरात्रविद आहुः । तदुक्तम् - स्वाध्यायो नाम अर्थानुसन्धानपूर्वको मन्त्रजपो वैष्णवसूक्तस्तोत्रपाठो 

नामसंकीर्तनं तत्त्वप्रतिपादकशास्त्राभ्यासश्च ( रामानुजदर्शनम् ) ।

प्रणवगायत्रीप्रभृतीनाम् अध्ययनं स्वाध्यायः (पातञ्जलदर्शनम् ) ।

So , the term स्वाध्याय in वेद is used in the sense of वेद  -- whereas in other places it is used as औपचारिक ।

अमावास्या - only is mentioned as अनध्याय in स्वाध्यायब्राह्मणम् ( यो’मावास्यायामधीते तप एव तत्तप्यते ) - but मनुस्मृति says

--

अमावास्या गुरुं हन्ति शिष्यं हन्ति चतुर्दशी ।

ब्रह्माष्टकापौर्णमास्यौ तस्मात्ताः परिवर्जयेत् ॥ मनु 4-114

प्रतिपत्पाठशीलस्य विद्येव तनुतां गता (सीता) -- रामायणम्

(हन्ति is an अर्थवाद , i e not really )

स्वाध्याय is not self-study .

Come to the point -- 

if one wants to study on his own , first he should learn at least पदवाक्यप्रमाणशास्त्राणि ( व्याकरणम् - मीमांसा - न्यायवैशिषिके) with a गुरु and then may try other शास्त्र-s .

धन्यो’स्मि

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Blog: Koradeeyam.blogspot.in 

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Namaskarams Shri Korada Garu

People are still looking for the ball outside the stadium.

You have effectively had the last word on this thread :-)

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

The issue of स्वाध्याय as interpreted as traditional method  of self study has come to an end by the post of Prof. Korada as the final as usual. I had expected it long ago.

Thanks is the lword we can say.

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[Dr. Yadu Moharir]

Namaskar scholars.,

I think there are always exceptions to rules, I think एकलव्य needs to be classified as having practiced "स्वाध्याय".  Kindly educate me if there is better term to classify him under.

Rgds

Yadu

On Thursday, September 26, 2019, 4:45:22 PM MST, Hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com> wrote:

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The issue of स्वाध्याय as interpreted as traditional method  of self study has come to an end by the post of Prof. Korada as the final as usual. I had expected it long ago.

Thanks is the lword we can say.

On Thu, 26 Sep 2019, 10:53 pm venkat veeraraghavan, <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste Bhat ji

 

Now that you have brought in the Kashika  reference,  and  endorsed ' आ in between' and   explained 'Swaadhyaaya' ,  and we have already touched on Gita,  let me push the deliberation a little further !

 

The subject line is ' Traditional Method of Self-Study of Shaastra'.  The study of ' Veda' has been a default theme  in this discussion.  

 

Guidance for  study of 'Veda ( as Mantra- Brahmana) and its Viniyoga is an integral part of the ' Six Vedanga's. I push this in to the domain of discussions in Yaska's Nirukta. Some others may push this to the rest of the vedanga disciplines and upavedas also !

 

Nirukta  and Pratishaakhya  has clear position on the ' The traditional method of self-study of Shaastra'  - with specific focus on ' Understanding before Use'.

 

In other words, the traditional method of self -study of (veda  and related)  Shaastra's has a prescribed guidance.   More specifically Nirukta, which sets the need to understand the  multilane- multilayer  meaning, which can be understood only through the help of ' Acharya'.  Ref: Nirukta- uttara-shatka- Daivata kaanda.I am specifically referring to the  observation in parishishta (12)  :

                 मनुष्या वा ऋषिषूत्क्रामत्सु देवान् अब्रुवन्- को न ऋषिर्भविष्यतीति ?

               तेभ्य एतं तर्कं ऋषिं प्रायच्छन् - मन्त्रार्थ - चिन्ताऽऽभ्यूहमभ्यूह्ळम् - तस्माद्यदेव किंचानूचानोऽभ्यूह्त्यार्षं तद्भवति |

 

Could you please expand on this and connect this to explanation from Kashikaa tradition ?

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

 

 

 

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Hnbhat B.R.
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 7:28 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The traditional method of self-study of Shaastra?

 

स्वाध्यायः, पुं, (सुष्ठु आवृत्य अध्यायः वेदाध्ययनमिति ।) आवृत्य वेदाध्ययनम् । इति “स्वाध्यायो जप इत्युक्तो वेदाध्ययनकर्म्मणि ।”

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Ekalavya would come under the paradigm of mityachara for which he was punished.

This might be controversial but my 2 cents:

Any relationship needs a 2 way acceptance.

This is no different in the case of Guru-Sishya.

Ekalavya in my opinion was probably a Yogabrashta (I wonder if there is a source for this) which was the only way he could have picked up the subtle aspects of Dhanurveda.

I think he worshipped the statue of Drona with such success (not possible without prior Yogasiddhi) that he tapped into Drona's wavelength which amounted to stealing Drona's Shakti without permission.

This was not a case of svadhyaya.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Can anybody be taught?  One can only guide.  A student has been endowed with the ability to learn by nature.  It is this ability that a guru makes use of for the upliftment of the student.

Eklavya gave away his thumb after he had achieved what he dreamt of and which he had achieved through tapa.  On the other hand what was in store for Drona in the Mahabharata War also needs to be looked at.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Who is emulated when people keep an idol in front and pray?  Eklavya or Drona?

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri Achyut-ji,

Is the figure or the entity in the vigraha in a puja considered to be a skill-teacher to the person doing the puja by that person ?

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

It depends on the person praying.  If the person is a याचक the idol is just a निमित्त.  If the person is engaged in swadhyaya the idol represents the person he wishes to emulate.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

So you realize that your analogy covers only a possible sub-variety but not the whole of the issue ? 

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

So the different varietes of Swadhaya if at all they exist need to enumerated.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

This reminds the other recent thread on Yogyataa. The word Yogyataa was misunderstood under the influence of its use in contemporary Indian language borrowings. The s'aastriya technical sense of the word was ignored. 

Same thing here. The word Swaadhyaaya is being taken in a svakapolakalpita etymological sense ignoring the rooDhaartha in which it is used. 

Ekalavya's skill-learning method is not svaadhyaaya. Period.   

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[K S Kannan]

It is considered a deviation and a distortion

to add a new meaning to a well-known word

having a well-established sense - a technical sense, especially,

even if there could be some support/hint drawn

from the way the word could be derived.

You cannot invent a new meaning for the word research

and say research means "searching for something once again"

- simply on the grounds that re- can mean "again";

or that "to remember" is "to re-member something that has lost its member".

Such attempts can only be described as wild fancies.

No lexicographer takes a fancy for such figments of imagination

and include it in the dictionary. It is only those who do not know

even the elements of lexicography that will indulge in such fantastic acrobatics.

Much sound and fury, but no sense.

Rather than all this child's play, and waste of time for the members of the list,

please try create a new word which can possibly reflect your idea more transparently.

यः वाचम् स्तेनयेत् सः सर्व-स्तेय-कृत् ।

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

So what is the sanskrit word which will describe what Ekalavya indulged in with the idol in front of him so as to achieve the necessary skill?

What should a student if his guru dies half way into the instruction of the subject?

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Achyut Karve]

Please read as 'What should a student do if ......'

[K S Kannan]

What Ekalavya did is steya.

Simple.

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[Achyut Karve]

In English please.

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[Achyut Karve]

Can ideas or skills be stolen?

[K S Kannan]

What else are modern Western repackagings-cum-distortions

of ideas of Yoga ?

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

It appears that the discussion is changing track.  An act does not have ethical or moral connotions.  They are adduced to the act for social propriety.

I leave it here.

With regards,

Achyut Karve

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[V Subrahmanian]

There is also a sanction (at least in the tradition of Advaita) for the invoking of the blessings of Sri Dakshinamurti and commencing one's study/sadhana if no Acharya is available. That Lord himself is considered by the aspirant to be his Guru. 

regards

subrahmanian.v 

[K S Kannan]

Please be more careful in your English also.

What are "connotions"?

What do you mean by "adduced to the act"?

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[Sivasenani Nori]

With respect to what Prof. Kannan described, quite charitably, as "wild fancy", it actually needs to be condemned in stronger words. It is violence to the most useful tool of humanity, language, and anti-social. 

One of the key reasons for development of human beings, why they are superior to animals, is language. But language itself is based on a common pact - called samaya in Sanskrit - that such and such word denotes such and such meaning. Disturbing this underlying compact is beyond irresponsibility - it is anti-social behaviour.

Regards 

N Siva Senani 

[K S Kannan]

Thanks for supplementing.

Thanks for stating the truth more plainly.

Warned Manu wrt those who play with words irresponsibly:

वाच्यर्था नियतास् सर्वे वाङ्मूला वाग्-विनिस्सृताः।

तां तु यस् स्तेनयेद् वाचं स सर्व-स्तेय-कृन्-नरः ॥ -४.२५६ मनुः

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Shri Achyut ji

As Dr. Kannan pointed out, your language is not precise. It is hard to figure out what you mean.

What do you mean by "emulate"?

The literal meaning is to imitate / to match or surpass.

You write: " If the person is a याचक the idol is just a निमित्त. "

What makes you think there is no yAchana involved in learning?

Unless there is a feeling and acknowledgement of ignorance /lack thereof one cannot make a sankalpa to learn. A dry soil draws water and a thirsty student pulls in knowledge. Where to pour water and where to with-hold is the discretion of the Gardener.

So is the Guru a nimitta too? 

You seem to have a rather narrow view of the role of a Guru somewhere in line with the modern fetish of "following your bliss" and "you are your own Guru" etc.

Unfortunately these abominations have sprouted mostly scandals and not even a yogabrashta of the caliber of half an ekalavya.   

You say Ekalavya achieved through tapa?

What is your definition of tapa?

What was in store for Drona in the MB war?

Vyasa in the MB clearly states that 5 people saw where Drona went after death, one of whom was Krishna Himself. Apart from the fact that he was forced to fight for Duryodhana as recompense for having received patronage from Hastinapura what exactly do you think went wrong for Drona? 

Dharma is very subtle and cannot be decided without knowing the pAtra / vessel..

While a person with a normal agni can consume a fried vada without illeffects, a person suffering from jvara or mandha agni cannot consume the same vada without serious consequences.

The species is the same, but the internal dynamics are different.

The difference is astronomical when the pAtra being considered is a Yogi like Bhishma or Drona.

What works for a man/woman of power will not work for the common folk and even less so for the indigent.

There is a statement  to that effect when Kunti confesses her regret and paschattapa at having abandoned Karna. Vyasa replies somewhere along the lines of "for people endued with shakti all actions become worthy and align with dharma" ...

Going back to the root of this discussion 

As Dr. Kannan pointed out, Ekalavya's case was not one of svadhyaya but that of theft pure and simple.

Now there are many thieves who are extremely skilfull, but from the POV of dharma they are just that adharmis and bhrashta. 

Their skill level is merely a qualifier. A skilled thief maybe but a thief nonetheless.

Kind Regards,

Venkat

 

 

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[Satyan Sharma]

Namaskara to all Vidwans who answered my question. I thank you all for your valuable answers and conversation. 

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[Deva Pattanayak]

Dear Karve-ji

You make a lot of sense. I quote a proverb which goes like

“You can take a donkey to the river but you can not make it drink the water.”

I agree with you that one has to learn by oneself. Of course it becomes easier to learn by the guidance of a teacher. The guru becomes indispensable when he is the only source of the knowledge. 

The guru also has every right not to accept any one   as a student.

What I find not defensible is when a guru favors one of his disciple over another.

Society benefits when each member rises to the potential he/she is born with to raise the bar of knowledge to a higher level.

It may be of interest to learn what the Buddha avatar of Vishnu revealed after the advent of Rama and Krishna avatars of Vishnu. 

Will be of interest to know the specific and unique teachings of Buddha. That of course belongs to a new thread.

Best wishes 

Deva  

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[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

On  <Ekalavya's case was not one of svadhyaya but that of theft pure and simple.>    

 

1. Ekalavya's  study and skill acquisition was ' tapas' where ' single pointed devotion to the master of a discipline, with a purpose to be achieved '  was the path followed by him   

   to success.   <  < एकः तपः>  Tapas is followed as an individual excellence initiative. 

    The physical 'guru' may not bless and teach'; but the ' knowledge in the universe' becomes accessible to such seeker with seriousness and purpose.  

      Poets call this as ' Pratibhaa', anugraha by the Goddess of muse.

     Even in such a case,  trying circumstances, the students acknowledgement and respect for 'Guru' is what distinguishes 'theft' tag  from ' tapas'.  

     The factor of 'EGO' and Jealousy are to be carefully analyzed.

 

     May be one should take a look at the playlet  by T.P.Kailasam ( in english) by the title:  Purpose, which deals with the story of Ekalavya.

      (Purpose (= SAMKALPA- VINIYOGA)  is deeply connected with utility application and Public good).

 

     The playlet is available at the link: https://tpkailasam.blogspot.com/2011/11/purpose.html .  

 

     Why 'Ekalavya' does not fit in to the  'stena' model can be seen in Kailasam's play. The  following  excerpts from the playlet below is worth contemplating.

 

 

Ekalavya:   A PUPIL CAN LEARN MORE FROM HIS GURU THAN WHAT THE GURU HIMSELF KNOWS  IF THE PURPOSE OF THE PUPIL FOR LEARNING IS NOBLER THAN WHAT THE PURPOSE OF THE GURU'S WAS WHEN HE LEARNT FROM HIS GURU!!

////

 

Drona: You do not know all, Little Man! It is not only Love and respect for the Guru that counts... but the PURPOSE... the MAIN PURPOSE with which the pupil learns, DECIDES HOW MUCH HE learns! You have said it yourself a while ago. With his purpose for learning... far beneath yours,... all his efforts and mine to help him even to EQUAL you, will not avail!!

 

Ekalavya: What then... has been...his (= Arjuna's)  purp...?

 

Drona: (Looking away) His (= Arjuna's) purpose from the very outset has been to acquire personal fame as an archer! To be acclaimed the greatest archer of all times! And with you (= Ekalvya)  working body and soul, heart and mind... to free harmless creatures from fear of marauding beasts... the hardest of his efforts will not land him within yojanaas of your archery!! And I shall never keep the promise I rashly made!

   

2.  There is also another floating story of Ekalavya, having further achieved  skills of archery, without the use of thumb.

      It is said that ekalvya  wanted to serve and be on the side of Drona in the mahabharata war. Krishna is said to have anticipated this as added strength to Duryodhana and counters it in a circuitous way.  While the authenticity of story may be questioned, like many other floating stories around  many  characters of Mahabharata, the fact that indian society had keen interest in mahabharata related anectodes and more specifically on Ekalavya is to be noted. None of these stories have attached the tag of 'stena' - Thief  to ekalavya. There are popular stories pan-indian nature on son of Ghatotkacha, son of Arjna ( babhruvahana) et al which run with similar cross cultural debate.

 

3. What would be a better term to qualify ' Ekalavya' ? Who then is a 'stena' ? -  Ekalavya was a  ' Siddhi-Kaama'  without need for ' Prasiddhi- Prashasti- Prabhaava', in the interpretation of ' PURPOSE', by Kailasam.    :: This is what emulation means in case  of ekalavya.  

 

            A 'Thief' tag, according to tradition,  goes in all cases where one can see any one or more of the following:

 

 (i)  failure to fulfill the purpose of the knowledge received by him/her through the teacher- tradition. (Shaastra- Prayojana/ viniyoga).

 

  (ii)  learner deserts the goal of knowledge  and limits its use for self-gratification .( Gita: 3-12:  tair dattan apradayaibhyo , yo bhunkte stena eva sah ). ( A-Shishya -pradaana)

 

  (iii)  The guts to raise and fight even at the stake of 'ones own life' for the cause of ' Establishing Dharma - Down sizing Adharma'; because one loves personal safety and money

          more than the ' PURPOSE'.   These are soft-thief's who are best in making historical analysis and offer suggestions. ( Dharma- pravachanakaara).

 

          One of my friend gives an analogy for this : There are many people who want to play the role of ' judge' ! But there are no good lawyers who strive to make the right case

          and argue it out for getting the right judgment and implement.   These 'soft-thief's want to  teach 'swimming without ever making the learner get 'wet' with the water in

          the pool. In sports parlance, these are called ' armchair commentators  and umpiring- critics, watching the re-play of the game, who don't / wont  step on to the game field

          and kick the balls'.

 

  (iv) The  person  / institution failing  to make the knowledge tradition serve the social and spiritual wellness , the  person  / institution failing  to ensure the access  of knowledge traditions to empower every member of  community to  'EMULATE' the excellence standards set by the knowledge discipline,  the  interpretations and interpreters -gate keepers who block the delivery of public good of sacred traditions (Sanatana Dharma for Purushartha of Prajaa- Rashtram)  are the real ' Thieves'.  (Dharma-Samsthaa without working for Dharma-Samsthaapanaa).

 

     One can explore  Nirukta - daivata kanda for more details on this point, as a discussion on  the following point : 

            मनुष्या वा ऋषिषूत्क्रामत्सु देवान् अब्रुवन्- को न ऋषिर्भविष्यतीति ?

    तेभ्य एतं तर्कं ऋषिं प्रायच्छन् - मन्त्रार्थ - चिन्ताऽऽभ्यूहमभ्यूह्ळम् - तस्माद्यदेव किंचानूचानोऽभ्यूह्त्यार्षं तद्भवति |

 

      The term 'emulate' should be not be picked up for a limited meaning of choice.   Ref: URL:- https://www.thefreedictionary.com/emulate ::    

emulate :   to strive to equal or excel; to vie with successfully.

 This is different from 'theft' :  One who commits the act or crime of theft.;  a person who steals something from another; a person who steals, esp. secretly.

Not to be confused with:   imitate – to copy the actions, appearance, or mannerisms of another; ape, mimic, mock, parody ( as self-study enthusiasts take an exit path to free resources ! Where learning is without responsibility for teacher, accountability to the  discipline and commitment for purpose , and audit to mark the level of  achievement)

1.  To strive to equal or excel, especially through imitation: an older pupil whose accomplishments and style I emulated.

2.  To compete with successfully; approach or attain equality with.

3.  Computers To imitate the function of (another system), as by modifications to hardware or software that allow the imitating system to accept the same data, execute the same programs, and achieve the same results as the imitated system.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of venkat veeraraghavan
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2019 4:33 PM
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The traditional method of self-study of Shaastra?

 

Dear Shri Achyut ji

.

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Shri Sastry ji-

Firstly, the authenticity of the many of the statements attributed to Drona wrt Arjuna are contestable. Generally speaking Vyasa's version is regarded as authentic for the MB just as Valmiki's version and not Kamban or Tulsidas' versions are regarded as authentic wrt Ramayana.

Recently a few Potterheads queried JK Rowling about certain characters and the author was pretty adamant about her way and encouraged the enthusiasts to write their own fantasy if they so desired.

Inspired by the original epics many have written their own MB like Sarala and certain Tamil versions where Karna has been championed.

These cannot be considered authentic or authoritative by any count except as an extension of an author's fantasy.

Skillwise there are a few characters in the MB that seem to supercede Arjuna, however the fact remains that Arjuna himself seemed quite incomparable on his own the way his life panned out.

If any Arjuna is blessed with an even more pristine charitra than most others. He went on vanavasa for twelve years longer and was on digvijaya for longer than any of the Pandavas.

All this life experience showed itself in the Virata war, where he proved himself peerless against an array lead by Bhishma, Drona, Karna, Ashwatthama and Kripa among others. He defeated all these singly and then together.

Yes. I agree that the purpose for which one learns is paramount. The purpose in Arjuna's case was Kshatriya Dharma and not sheer vanity (as in Karna's case) or intense intellectual curiosity as in the case of Ekalavya.

Firstly Ekalavya was aligned with Magadha who were enemies of the state of hastinapura which was providing support to Drona and secondly, he learnt through stealth without Drona's knowledge.

This left Drona with no option other than to ask for his thumb.

Arjuna never humiliated his opponents as Karna was wont to do and he spared whoever (Maya, Angaraparna etc) asked for refuge. He did not make  friendships with people who were opposed to Dharma as Karna and Ekalavya did.

There is an extensive list of Sishupala's misdeeds (including rape) in the episode of the Rajasuya and Ekalavya was this man's ally.

When a person tries to use a sublime art to pervert dharma they need to be put down with whatever means at hand. To see such a stratagem in isolation and dub it as adharma or koota-nithi is to miss the whole point of dharma.

The point of dharma is lokakalyana and not self aggrandizement as being called the "world's foremost archer" etc.

The final nail in the coffin of all Arjuna-baiters online and in print is that Krishna chose him for His friend and disciple for his pAtrata and his guNas.

That is enough endorsement for me.

Kind Regards,

Venkat

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[Shyam Karanam]

Thief is a very very modest description of Eklavya.

Eklavya was a dacoit/tribe who fought Lord Krishna for 18 times along with Jarasandha. He invoked evil forces in the idol of Dronacharya to learn skills. Evil forces cease to work for an angahina and hence Dronacharya asked for his thumb. It makes little sense why someone would not be able to shoot arrows without thumb. Skilled Archer can shoot with legs as well.

More on it

https://www.quora.com/In-the-Hindu-epic-Mahabharata-how-do-you-justify-Dronacharya-asking-Ekalavya-to-cut-his-thumb-off/answer/Angara-Sreeniketh

Regards

Shyam

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

I'd like to add that there are parallels in Ekalavya's journey with that of Kacha the son of Brihaspati. How did Ekalavya end up near Drona's ashrama unless he was sent with a specific purpose as Kacha was?

Even though kacha was ostensibly on the side of the Devas (the good guys) what he did was Guru Droha pure and simple when he used the innocent Devayani in trying to curry favour with Shukra. Ultimately the episode ended with a few mutual curses that negated the entire enterprise.

This shows that the purpose with which one approaches knowledge has to be pure. This only puts to mind Castaneda's words:

"A man goes to knowledge as he goes to war: wide-awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance"

[K S Kannan]

Doesn't the same Nirukta say:  VidyA says:

गोपाय मां शेवधि ष्टेऽहमस्मि ।

न अनृजवे शठाय/अयताय ?

Kailasam may have had "his own Purpose" in wrting his play;

but his wit, howsoever extraordinary, can be no substitute for VyAsa's wisdom.

(Cf. "Of what is the sophist so eloquent?" - interrogated Socrates.

Sophistry is the last resort of the bruised ego that turns a blind eye to equity.)

You are welcome to quote Kailasam when Kailasam is being reviewed.

You get a dime a dozen modern plays portraying a "rebellious" Sita,

which only dubious critics invoke while discussing Valmiki.

Create your own stories and plots by all means,

why disfigure and distort the time-honoured ones to suit your fancies?

It is against (pro)posing this kind of tarka as Rs"i

that the upanis"ad warned - prior to the nirukta:

नैषा तर्केण मतिरापनेया |

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[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

1.    Before responding to your post below, let me assure you that I am as much an insider of the tradition, aware of the issues and having deep interest in the service of 'Dharma'. But that does not mean turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to irregular text constructions and preferential construction of views and  locking oneself to  a ' bi-partisan group mode of ' with us ( to sing our song)  or on other side (as an enemy)'. Sorry, that is not good academics or path of Dharma.

 

  If we need Mahabharata of Vyasa in its essence  let us get to Tatparya Nirnaya. If we want the Text of past, go for Critical edition, manuscript search et al. If we want popular faith-belief assurance preaching to own crowd for claps, go for fancy stories weave and entertainment media.

 

  The PURPOSE guides the  FORMAT as  PREACHING or TEACHING.  

 

    The response on Ekalavya becomes relevant when ' Characters of Mahabharata' are taken as ' History - Land- Characters of Communities in the Varna Ashrama frame work'. 

   

    One view of tradition holds that all characters of MBH are gods and demi-gods, which pushes out all debate of ethics in one shot ! out of such deliberations.  

  Now, who made these Gods/ demi-gods/ demons to human level'  Or  ' elevated humans to Gods/ demi-gods/ demons mode'  is not easy to  answer. 

  Both models being present in the text, there are adherents for both views, as suits their convenience.

 

   The < social media responses>  reading : < Eklavya was a dacoit/tribe who fought Lord Krishna for 18 times along with Jarasandha. He invoked evil forces in the idol of Dronacharya to learn skills. Evil forces cease to work for an angahina and hence Dronacharya asked for his thumb. It makes little sense why someone would not be able to shoot arrows without thumb. Skilled Archer can shoot with legs as well. >  are emotionally satisfying, but empty containers to explain anything of essence ! It is because of such explanations, the tag ' mythology' is attached to many such explanations. Was Dronacharya also a schemer ? Was there a ' Magical technology'  known for Ekalavya  for  no-physical presence learning ?  If skilled archers can shoot with legs as well, there are instances where the grass turns to an intelligent weapon by use of ' Mantra' to hunt out the '  crow which goes round the world, for hurting the wife of Sri Rama; and ultimately this becomes an explanation for ' one eye view of all crows' ??  If one part of the text is authority, what happens to the rest of the text?  Is it ' Half -Egg ' logic ??

When tradition teachers say these things as ' intelligent explanation of past glory', the current curios ask 'Why we are not able to  get these skills' ? The answer cannot go round to the mumbo jumbo of mantra sounds, years of tapas, guru-blessing, magical muhurtha....  . Todays seekers dismiss it as ' myhtology' or ' photoshop ...  or Harry Potter'! .... X-men ... starwars ... you know the rest'.  The introspection needs to begin :Why are given all this ? and how is it going to enrich the quality of life ? for us ? for the next generation.

 

 

2.  In all this discussion, we get so obsessed with the  'Text of Maharshi Vyaysa' and its ' sacrosanct authority'  of interpretation in a specific model, excluding other modes of thinking. going to the details of this analysis would be good exercise as a 'closed door exercise only'.  That will not be for public display or consumption.  Just because something is written in Sanskrit, it does not mean it is ancient.  The follow up question would be : Have  we understood what is SAMSKRUTHAM, as it has passed through a hoary past of millennia through the seers -sages -narrators- Acahryas - Shaastrakaaras  and filtered through the  linguists, indologists, Genetic imprint of language advocates...... ??  Yes, there are questions. What we seem to have a number of keys  for a number of locks , but do not know which key is for which lock ?? The UNLOCKING CODE.  The code available with Panini-Patanjali- Yaska is sidelined and Biblical Tower of Babel is being tried out by many in such debates. Would that work ??  

 

 I have seen such debates and been a part of many, where emotions take over the logic and sanity of  participators intellect'.  Here is the  classic case of this instance , where MBH characters of Karna, Ekalavya and many others get in to a social frame for debate. These debates get emotional flare and ' look back at  Maharshi Vyasa's work with a backward looking History lens starting at 20th century.   

 

3.  What constitutes Vyasa's version of Mahabharata was even doubted by  14th century, when Acharya Madwa took to the direction of ' Taatparya - Nirnaya' instead of ' Text Nirnaya' .  When Acharya Madhwa spoke of ' Bharata' along with ' Moola Ramayana, Pancharatra, and Four Vedas' as Shaastra with common purpose,  the new model of MBH understanding had already been framed. So whatever we are looking now, at current time,  as ' Maharshi Vyasa's version of MBH, at one lakh verses or pan-indian text, or critical edition, is already farther removed from the original narrative; and has a formatted alignment  of PURPOSE AND  PRACTICE .  How much additions from what time, by whom is not the issue.

 

Disconnecting land history  using the ' elevated plane of ' Vedanta' to understand MBH  is not solution here.  Vishwa Adluri's work is great; but it also has to explain the land-history of Bharat in relation to MBH. The current cultural frame of understanding MBH is already smeared with all these flavors and thoughts from many thinkers of past centuries.  Ekalavya's story interpretation is one such case. If we are discussing now Ekalavya, there will be discussions on Ghatotkacha in the coming days, as son of Bhima !

 

4. For a traditional believer, the historicity of Sri Krishna or Arjuna is a non-issue.  Yuga cycle is far bigger than 4000 years history.  Gita is the essence of Upanishads; The Sri Krishna - Arjuna pair is Nara-Narayana Yogi's. That is accepted by Three Acharya's. That is good enough for  me.  For an academic scholar, indologist, linguist, anthropologist  this is not enough, nay distracting.

 

5. For a traditional believer,  the PURPOSE is to be aligned with the PRACTICE.  This is the key point of VINIYOGA, where ' YOGA is inbuilt condition.  

 

   The 18 days of kurukshetra war was strategized by Sri Krishna  and that is enough to undermine all human arguments of unethical issues  from a human lens in the war.

 

   As you note, < The point of dharma is lokakalyana and not self aggrandizement > .  Let us steer the debate in that direction.

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[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

1. Yes, Nirukta says < Doesn't the same Nirukta say:  VidyA says: गोपाय मां शेवधि ष्टेऽहमस्मि । न अनृजवे शठाय/अयताय ?  >  :   Question: Why was this directive vioalted and tolerated and continued to be violated with an anchor reference  from 17th century ?

 

2.  The same Nirukta, as Vednaga asked and pointed the path to become a Rushi. Why is it despised ?

 

3.  Just as we are deliberating MBH characters, our peers of past also debated  the ancinet text; and came out with wonderful works like Uru-Bhanga, Veni -samhara, Baala-Bharata, ... Ashwatthaman, Yayaati.....et al. We continue that tradition ' yaTha  te tatra varteran, tathA tatra varteThAH'.  Do we say Bhasha disfigured Mahabahrata or ramayana ??

 

4. Yes < that the upanis"ad warned - prior to the nirukta:  नैषा तर्केण मतिरापनेया |  > ;  We also have the directive ' TapasA  BRAHMA vijijnAsasva'.   Tattu samanvayAt'. And this is way before Nirukta!  and Brahma Sutra . Shruti  stands as a higher authority.   So we do continue to deliberate.

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[K S Kannan]

दुस्तर्कात् सुविरम्यतां, श्रुति-मतस् तर्कोऽनुसन्धीयताम् ।।

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[Bijoy Misra]

Very appropriate to some of the threads in this forum!

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Now-a-days anything that is written nay anything that apprears in the virtual world is considered to be real.

  Basic texts are the only ones which can guide us.  As long as the tradition was oral garbage was seived at each level.  With the advent of printing it is the partisan rubbish that is gaining ground.  With digitalization the garbage has not only polluted the environment but over shadowed it so much so that that the sun has itself disappeared from the skies.  People just face the horizon and pray.  

First hand is not only from the horses mouth but also from an unblemished eye. The wheel needs to be reinvented by each generation else the kernel will be lost.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste Misra ji

 

I concur with you on this quote, attributed to Acahrya Shankara Bhagavatpada.    The quote has to be taken in the context of total forty guidelines,  in which it occurs.

The debate on Ekalavya issue took us off track by misrepresenting  the  purpose- practice and people who followed-lived Vedic Values and guidance.

The  discourse went tangentially off track to from the set norms  in the tradition as < vakyaarthascha vichaaryataam>.  

 

 

I have placed the entire text and highlighted the parts of relevance, which in my little understanding is approved by all Acharyas.

(Let us respectfully keep  aside the ultimate identity debate which is purely personal and 'adhyatma'.

Let us Stick to the norms of  getting the  right, reasoned, responsible, respectable  pedagogy of Sanatana Dharma from Vedas.)

 

 

वेदो नित्यमधीयतां तदुदितं कर्म स्वनुष्ठीयतां ;   तेनेशस्य विधीयतामपचितिः काम्ये मतिस्त्यज्यताम्‌।

पापौघः परिधूयतां भवसुखे दोषोऽनुसन्धीयतां , आत्मेच्छा व्यवसीयतां निजगृहात्तूर्णं विनिर्गम्यताम्‌ ॥ १ ॥

 

सङ्गः सत्सु विधीयतां भगवतो भक्तिर्दृढाऽऽधीयतां,  शान्त्यादिः परिचीयतां दृढतरं कर्माशु सन्त्यज्यताम्‌।

सद्विद्वानुपसृप्यतां प्रतिदिनं तत्पादुका सेव्यतां ,  ब्रह्मैकाक्षरमर्थ्यतां श्रुतिशिरोवाक्यं समाकर्ण्यताम्‌ ॥ २ ॥

 

वाक्यार्थश्च विचार्यतां श्रुतिशिरः पक्षः समाश्रीयतां ,  दुस्तर्कात्सुविरम्यतां श्रुतिमतस्तर्कोऽनुसन्धीयताम्‌।

ब्रह्मास्मीति विभाव्यतामहरहर्गर्वः परित्यज्यतां , देहेऽहंमतिरुझ्यतां बुधजनैर्वादः परित्यज्यताम्‌ ॥ ३ ॥

 

क्षुद्व्याधिश्च चिकित्स्यतां प्रतिदिनं भिक्षौषधं भुज्यतां , स्वाद्वन्नं न तु याच्यतां विधिवशात्प्राप्तेन सन्तुष्यताम्‌।

शीतोष्णादि विषह्यतां न तु वृथा वाक्यं समुच्चार्यतां , औदासीन्यमभीप्स्यतां जनकृपानैष्ठुर्यमुत्सृज्यताम्‌ ॥ ४ ॥

 

एकान्ते सुखमास्यतां परतरे चेतः समाधीयतां , पूर्णात्मा सुसमीक्ष्यतां जगदिदं तद्बाधितं दृश्यताम्‌।

प्राक्कर्म प्रविलाप्यतां चितिबलान्नाप्युत्तरैः श्लिष्यतां,  प्रारब्धं त्विह भुज्यतामथ परब्रह्मात्मना स्थीयताम् ‌॥ ५ ॥

 

Source : https://www.satyavedism.org/adi-shankaracharya/sadhana-panchakam-sadhana-for-realization-40-instructions-in-5-verses-2-translations

 

Regards

 

BVK Sastry

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bijoy Misra
Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2019 7:39 AM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The traditional method of self-study of Shaastra?

 

Very appropriate to some of the threads in this forum!