'Detrimental' effects of mantra (japa)?

[Govind Kashyap]

Namaskar to all

Is it generally accepted that mantras, when recited, are (at least in the initial stages of japa) understood to first "cleanse" a person karmically, by way of making the reciter undergo some kind of suffering/pain/grief and the like?

An acquaintance of mine, an upasaka in the Sri Vidya tradition, told me that chanting the mantras of the Devi generally result in some karmic 'detrimental' effects, by way of the surfacing of some kind of impediments or suffering in the reciter's life. This, he told me, is understood in the tradition as follows: the suffering that surfaces is a relatively less intense way of experiencing (and thus exhausting) the effects of bad karma that has lain in one's store.

I have heard somewhat similar statements from a few other reciters (belonging to various other traditions, with their practice consisting of reciting different mantras specific to their line). Many traditions - regardless of the devata or form of Iswara - seem to takes this standpoint - that the mantras "throw up" some karmic "effects" initially.

This standpoint seems to be at variance with the standpoint of the Smritis and the Sruti - Mantra Samhita and Brahmanas plus the Upanisads (specifically the saguna upasana / brahma vidya segments), which show a positive path devoid of suffering. 

Such is the promise that the Agamas hold as well. The tantra traditions are unanimous in holding that they are eminently suited as the path that unites or harmonizes bhukti (experience) and mukti (liberation).

The Yoga tradition and the Dharmasastras praise the japa of Pranava (Om), practice of Tapas, Pranayama, and (various) dharanas/dhyanas as eminently destructive of sins (bad karma). Again, it is also unanimously held by the Sruti, Agama and Smriti that the ultimate incinerator of karma, both good and bad, is jnana (knowledge).

Taking the Brahma Sutras as an exemplar of the traditional line, the possible effects are understood to be broadly tripartite:

(a) Duritaksaya, i.e., reduction of the bad (sufferings/grief, etc)

(b) Aiswaryaprapti, i.e., obtention of the good (various benefits)

(c) Kramamukti, i.e., release by stages (mukti/moksa)

Now, if bad karma or sins are reduced/'burnt away' by japam, tapas and yogabhyasa, then it is reasonable to consider that mantra and pranayama etc overwhelm or overpower bad karma. If that is the case, how is it that mantra japa could lead to the surfacing of any kind of suffering, as many hold today (as detailed earlier)?

Is it that reduction or destruction or burning away of sins/bad karma essentially means their experience in lesser, milder, less intense forms and not their literal eradication/obliteration? 

I would be thankful for any guidance on this point from knowledgeable members.

[venkat veeraraghavan]

My 2 cents:-

Think of Mantra Japa as a process of cleaning a drainage that has not been cleaned in years(lifetimes). When you clean, expect to get the stench of all the muck that you bring up. It causes cleansing at all levels. Depending on sankalpa the cleansing can be less or more severe.

Consider the episode of Arjuna's quest for pAshupatAstra. Arjuna despite being the re-incarnation of Nara rShi and an amsha of Indra was beaten to within an inch of his life before Maheshvara granted him the pAshupatAstra. 

Did Arjuna suffer? Oh Yes. Did he profit from the suffering? Oh Yes.

You yourself in quoting shastra have highlighted this: bhukti and mukti ==> without bhukti(experience) there can be no mukti (a state of freedom from having to experience).

The key here is to understand the context in which mantra japa is prescribed. The sense in which mantra japa happens is in the path of nivrtti  or "inwardness" as opposed to the pravrtti or path of extroversion.

Having lived a life of extroversion, introversion or swimming against the tide will give trouble. Both at the material and spiritual levels. This is a path for those who are not fazed by the difficulties and the predators that lurk. This is not for the faint of heart.

It is precisely for this reason that tapasvins chose secluded spots away from family and friends to perform tapasya. Because the vortex that is created can upend families thereby disrupting dharma (grhasta dharma and societal dharma).

Having said that mantra japa is still safer than other routes like Raja Yoga and Kriya Yoga which demand the presence of a competent Guru to even have a sniff of an agreeable consummation. Therefore any directives regarding "devoid of suffering" should be taken as comparative to other paths and not as an absolute standard. Because after the initial struggle, the "devata" takes responsibility for further progress--something that is not available in the other paths.

[Sriram Karunagaran]

नमस्कारः  ।

My understanding on this matter as follows.

In present times, mantra japa can be practiced at anytime and situation of life, unlike other paths. Hence, it is a preferred path. All practitioners will go through karmic burning as they start practicing. There are different types of aspirants. Some are like dust covered over glass; if one wipes with cloth the glass will be visible. Some are like ash covering the embers. We need more effort to clear the ash. Some are like the fetus in the womb. It take lot more effort. This example is borrowed from Gita, but for a different purpose. Sometimes, the practitioner will go through very rough situations where they will be left without food, and shelter. My Guru used to say that in olden times, irrespective of the practice one takes up, the Guru would prescribe Sahasranama. Particularly, Lalitha Sahasranama was prescribed because the Mother will take care of food, clothing, and shelter. She also takes care of the spiritual growth of the disciple. Hence, a serious seeker should always practice under the guidance of a Realized Master, a Guru. Hope this helps.

DhanyavAdaH,

Sriram Karunagaran

On Tuesday, December 20, 2022 at 10:41:27 AM UTC+5:30 kashya...@gmail.com wrote:

[Govind Kashyap]

Thank you for your response and the kind pointers.
I am grateful.

[Govind Kashyap]

Thank you for your kind response.

I am grateful for your pointers.

[Mahamaho. Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

Now, if bad karma or sins are reduced/'burnt away' by japam, tapas and yogabhyasa, then it is reasonable to consider that mantra and pranayama etc overwhelm or overpower bad karma. If that is the case, how is it that mantra japa could lead to the surfacing of any kind of suffering, as many hold today (as detailed earlier)?

                                                                                                                                                                                       ---- Vid Kashya (What is your name - you did not append any)

परशुरामकल्पसूत्रम्  -  कामकलाविलासः - शारदातिलकम् - गुह्यसमाजतन्त्रम् - ज्ञानार्णवतन्त्रम् - प्रपञ्चसारतन्त्रम् - योगिनीहृदयम् - नित्योत्सवः - वामकेश्वरतन्त्रम्

In none of the major works on तन्त्रम् is it mentioned that there will be  'Detrimental' effects of mantra (japa)?' .

It seems that you are upon the horns of dilemma -- which one to choose -- वामाचार or वैदिकाचार ।

It depends upon the purpose --- if you want some लौकिकप्रयोजनम् ( some mundane purpose ) then you have to go for  वामाचार --

यच्चिंतामणिमन्त्रचिन्तनफले सर्गो’गमद्भास्वरः ( श्रीहर्षः - नैषधीयचरितम् ) -- he wanted to take revenge on  a scholar who insulted his father .

But there was one of our distant relatives , who did  क्षुद्रदेवतोपासना , -- six girls among his children were dumb . Also sometimes it may boomerang .

Go through the commentaries on भगवद्गीता  -- ज्ञानाग्निः सर्वकर्माणि दहते --- संचितकर्माणि एव दहते , न तु प्रारब्धकर्माणि ।

My suggestion -- prefer वैदिकाचार to वामाचार -- न गायत्र्या समं जप्यं न मातुः परदैवतम् (मनुस्मृतिः) ।

धन्यो’स्मि

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Adju.Professor , Dept of Heritage Science and Technology, IIT, Hyderabad

299 Doyen , Serilingampally, Hyderabad 500 019
Ph:09866110741

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Blog: Koradeeyam.blogspot.in 

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Namaste Shri Korada Garu,

English is a limited language when it comes to expression and there is some misunderstanding here.

I do not think the original questioner is suggesting that mantra japa injures the upasaka. What he refers to is the inevitable "litmus test" that every upasaka has to pass through before siddhi is achieved. He is talking about the suffering that comes in the wake of upasana.

Regards,

V

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[Govind Kashyap]

Mahamahopadhyaya Sri Korada Subrahmanyam ji,

The name is Govind Kashyap and I thank you for your kind guidance.

[Mahamaho. Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो  विद्वद्भ्यः

आयुष्मान् भव वेङ्कट

’ Original questioner ' ? what does it mean - संभवव्यभिचाराभ्यां स्याद्विशेषणमर्थवत् । There is only one .

I fail to understand as to why the  person wants to be incognito .

"litmus test" that every upasaka has to pass through before siddhi is achieved. He is talking about the suffering that comes in the wake of upasana -- is there any प्रमाणम् for this ?

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[Govind Kashyap]

Namaste to Sri Subrahmanyam ji and esteemed list members.

There seems to be some misunderstanding in regard to the matter of this thread as well as ancillary points. It is precisely to prevent such misunderstandings that I, instead of just shooting the bare question, took the time to compose the original post in this thread so that the purport and the context of the question are set out properly or at least set out in reasonable detail.

Sri Venkat Veeraraghavan and Sri Sriram Karunagaran understood the purport of the original post and the principal question correctly. As regards Sri Subrahmanyam's reading in, in the original post, of a dilemma relating to choice of achara - whether one is to take to vedachara over those established in the tantras, viz., vama or kaula or misra, as opposed to the samaya or divya or daksina, I take it as a beneficial and salutary recommendation from a guru even though that doesn't primarily relate to the question asked. Such statements are worthy of respect, as they come from a place of deep knowledge and experience . 

Coming to the specific points - 

By 'original questioner" and "he" is meant the author of the first post in this thread, i.e., myself. This term "original questioner" comes from language commonly used in international internet forums, where the term "Original Poster" or "OP" is predominantly used. Here, with ref to BVP, "original questioner" could also be taken to mean "thread initiator" or "questioner" too. 

"litmus test" that every upasaka has to pass through before siddhi is achieved. He is talking about the suffering that comes in the wake of upasana -- is there any प्रमाणम् for this ? 

I think this question of Sri Subrahmanyam is directed at Sri Venkat Veeraraghavan and we'd better await his (Sri Venkat's) answer. I only have this specific thing to say on this point - It is precisely because this whole idea of necessary or inevitable suffering in the course of any sadhana or upasana, which seems to have attained great informal prominence nowadays, doesn't seem to find any mention or acceptance in any sastra known to me that I asked the question in the first place here, seeking clarification from knowledgeable members and elders.

 With thanks,

Govind Kashyap