1 year experiment. 1 hour Dual N back a day 30 minutes Syllogimous V3 a day for 365 days.

[Konstantin Rokossovski]

Hello,

I will be conducting an experiment of 1 hour Dual N back and 30 minutes of syllogimous a day for 365 days. I will be posting updates on 1 december, 1 february, 1 may, 1 july and 8 oktober with progress. I will be tracking the number of minutes of training in a google sheet every evening. If i do not reaches 60 minutes one day I will compensate the next days.  Which baseline tests do you recommend? 

Baseline cognitive functioning:

I have already taken the brainlabs.me cambridge tests and the https://wais-iv-digit-span-00667a.netlify.app/ :

Oktober 8 2022:
Baseline tests:
Brainlabs.me all the tests. 2 of each.
Results:
Rotations: 120
Odd one out: 18,
Spatial planning: 91,
Feature match: 110,
Polygons: 66
Token search: 11
Paired associates: 5
Spatial span: 7
Monkey ladder: 10 (guessed 9 and 10 partly though with luck),
Grammatical reasoning: 20,
Double trouble: 67,
Digit span: 8,
The wais IV digit spans:

Forward: 10

Backward: 11

Sequencing: 10

Overall: 31.

Current dual n back scores:

I have reached 6 back a couple of times, never reached 7 only tried it in manual mode but never scored above 40% there. Highest average score is 5.3 (with trials >10)

Current syllogimous:

Quite ok at 3 premises (usually under 30sec), struggling with 4 premises. 

I will only do the baseline tests twice this week (more data points) and not do the tests for a whole year to avoid the training effect which will bias my results.

More info:/ baseline functioing.

I have probably above average intelligence, but I am far from brilliant, I have a law degree and am currently pursuing data science. I have done 1 hour dual n back for a month before and had good results, however I have had concussions (mild) which stopped me from continuing, now I am healed again. I play chess (around 1300/1400 blitz and 1500/1600 rapid on chess.com) and study mostly full time. Grades are not great, usually around B/C level, on a good day A-, problems with focus. Might be having some kind of ADHD but not severe. Dont use medications, but use supplements. Play sports 4+ times a week. 

I will be posting under this synonym (konstantin is not my real name, i am not even slavic) so that I can post all my intelligence scores honestly without worrying about employers etc. 

Reason why I am doing this experiment:

To know whether dual n back works, and whether the results are not only measurable but only quantifiable. The problem with a lot of studies was that the training time was probably too short to see results. People with longer training time report good results but mostly anectdotal (i saw the compilation of testimonails that somebody posted), if I do test now and in a year the results will be quantifiable. 

It would also be great for me if I increased my IQ significantly given my complex field of study (data science and law, probably in conjunction in my career). I also like a challenge. 

Why syllogimous and Dual N back? 

For the variation mostly. 

What is 1 hour of training?

I will be doing my best and giving it my all during training time. 1 hour training time means 1 hour in the game, the rests between sessions do not count. I wil be using the brain n back android app to train. 

Would love to hear which training baseline tests (preferably free) you want me to do to best measure the results. Let me know!

[Recursion]

Hi! I think what you are going to do is great. I'm also conducting a similar experiment, although my training regimen is not so strict.

I'd like to know, if you have practiced CBS tasks before hitting such scores, because some of them (in ODD ONE OUT in particular) seem to me quite high for a first try.

Considering other testing options, I can advise Graph mapping test, which is some kind of proxy for IQ.

Here's the link:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.3758/s13428-022-01846-z

There is a link to repository at the end of the article. It's free but requires some skills in programming (very basic Python) to make it work.

It's quite easy to measure WM itself, but what we really need is to track performance in cognitive domains which are WM-reliant (spatial, abstract, logical and other types of reasoning) because only this data can reveal, if far transfer really occurs. There is one more IQ proxy test - RAI+ (you can google it), but it consists of syllogisms, and since you are already practicing this type of tasks, it can provide biased data.

There are also such options as Human Benchmark and Quantified-mind online services. To my mind, they are not as good as CBS, but they contain some tasks, which CBS dosn't. So, depending on how much time can you afford to spend on testing, they can also be useful.

суббота, 8 октября 2022 г. в 22:17:03 UTC+3, konstantinr...@gmail.com:

[Konstantin Rokossovski]

Thank you! Because i want to stick to the experiment I have posted it here. It is true I have practiced Cambridge Brain sciences tasks before. Ive done each task around 10-15 times before, the last time was 5 months ago, I have plateaud in almost all of the tests, so if after a year there would be a big jump that would say something. I have also done the human benchmark tests, thank you for that, if I have time I will try to do the RAI+  and get the python working, but I expect I will be too busy with the 1h30m training a day haha. All the tests:

1. Mensa IQ test (Norway)

 Mensa IQ Challenge | Mensa International :

Scored 115 here. Had never taken this test before. 

2. Psychometrics IQ test

Full Scale IQ Test (openpsychometrics.org) Never taken this test before:

Results: Full scale: 116

Memory: 124

Verbal 106 (english is not my native language)

Spatial: 129

3. Human benchmark (done once or twice before in 2019/20):

Sequence memory: 14, 10

Aim trainer: 617ms, 581ms

Number memory: 10, 10

Verbal memory: 27, 41

Visual memory: 9, 10.

4.WAIS IV - DIgit span (never done before)

 https://wais-iv-digit-span-00667a.netlify.app/ :

Forward: 10 

Backwards 11

Sequencing 10

Overall 31; IQ: 106.3 

Second take in evening:

Forward: 9 

Backwards 11

Sequencing 9

Overall 29; IQ: 101.3 

I will start the challenge tomorrow, did not want to muddy the test results by starting already and perhaps being tired because of the training. 

[Recursion]

Taking tests can be very time consuming, that's true)

I thinks it's good, that IQ tests, which you have taken, are timed, because, according to some studies, untimed IQ tests are less WM-reliant. It means that scores in untimed IQ tests can stagnate even if WM actually gets better, but scores in timed IQ tests should grow as grows WM.

So I wish you good luck with your experiment!

понедельник, 10 октября 2022 г. в 00:24:31 UTC+3, konstantinr...@gmail.com:

[Ruslan]

Hey, inspired by your post and lack of any systematic approach on my end, I am planning to do similar experiment, but 30 minutes of DNB and 30 minutes of Syllogimous.

Would you be interested in sharing results/observations, say, once a month?

[Fredo Corleone]

How do you hold yourself accountable? 

[Konstantin Rokossovski]

Well posting this thread actually helps me keep accountable. The big thing that makes it not expend willpower is setting timers. I just keep going (next session immediately within a second) until I hear the timer (30 minutes), in the past I would just aim for a certain number of sessions, but then I would have to expend expend willpower everytime I paused to check the number of sessions I had done. 

It also helps that Im doing my first session directly after exercise in the morning, willpower is then still relatively low. Also because I believe in it, it doesnt feel like a waste of time. 

[Konstantin Rokossovski]

Yes, I have actually switched to a less rigid approach of 60 minutes of either dual n back/syllogimous with a minimum of 15 minutes for either (so 45/15 split is okay as long as it adds up to 60 minutes). 

The observations so far have been hopeful, but as of yet not dramatic. Keep in mind that I have been n backing in the past, so I dont have newbie gains anymore (I started with D5B, I am now halway D6B consistently getting 50+ scores but not yet leveling up to 7). 

Because I cant do tests until the experiment is over I fear posting every month will be excessive, as I can only shares observations, not test results (I want to avoid the practice effect). 

[Konstantin Rokossovski]

I also just did the test (15mins) recommended in this post. Scored 129.7. This is already after 21 days of training 1 hour a day. I timed it strictly.  I will not be doing any tests for the rest of the year. But because this one was very short and could give another test result I thought it might be usefull. 

IQ before and after brain training (google.com)

[Konstantin Rokossovski]

Hey Jey, I think thats a great idea. Would you mind to do all the tests I did before starting and post them here as well?

On Friday, 28 October 2022 at 08:58:07 UTC+2 jey...@gmail.com wrote:

[Jun Ichigo]

Hello, can you please test your Number memory at Human Benchmark and tell me how much you scored?

სამშაბათი, 01 ნოემბერი, 2022-ში 14:43:32 UTC+4-ზე konstantinr...@gmail.com-მა დაწერა:

[Konstantin Rokossovski]

I already did. See my scores in the second post. 

[Ruslan]

Hey there!

Just completed the tests, here are my results:

Mensa IQ test (Norway) (did once long time ago, when I was just starting dual n-back):
138

Psychometrics IQ test (First time):
Full Scale IQ 128
Memory IQ 138
Verbal IQ 108
Spatial IQ 131

Human benchmark (First time):
Verbal Memory 134.0
Sequence Memory 17.0
Reaction Time 282ms
Number Memory 10.0
Visual Memory 12.0

WAIS IV - Digit span (first time):
Forwards    12    106.0
Backwards    14    126.8
Sequencing    13    124.0
Overall    39    126.3

I don't know how it was for you, but after completing all the tests I felt very exhausted and had a strong headache.

You also mentioned your chess rank, I found that mine started to improve with my dual-n-back progress.
My lichess rank on blitz went up from about 1500-1600 to 1700-1800 (highest was ~1850).
Worth mentioning, that I never studied chess seriously.

I'm starting the n-back training today, 30 minutes of dual n-back before sleep.
I was doing it for some time in the past, but was not very consistent.
My current level is 7.

Will report my progress in 4 weeks!

[Konstantin Rokossovski]

Thankyou! I had done the tests not all at once, so didnt have that much of a headache. For completeness you could also try the Cambridge Brain Sciences tests, but if youre tired I understand that. 

Good luck with your experiment! I usually do the first 30 minutes after exercise (set a timer, and just keep going (immediately new sessions) till the timer rings), I find that saves willpower vs having to check the number of sessions all the time. 

Do you use rehearsal or intuitive method?

[Bo T]

Hey konstantin, very nice score on the TIG-1 IQ test. Did you take it in an optimal condition? (good night's sleep, undistracted, etc?). If so, go on with your training regimen and take the second IQ test after a year or so when you are done. 

[Ruslan]

I have never understood exactly what people here mean by "intuitive" method. Maybe you could explain?

I usually just trying to remember without repeating or rehearsing, if I try to rehearse, signals kinda fade away, especially, those, which I'm not rehearsing at that moment, e.g., the sequence is ABCDEFG, if I try to rehearse 'A-B-C-D-E-F-G', 'ABC' starts to fade away.

Rehearsal was working fine for me when I was on 4 dnb, but on 6-7 it more of a hindrance than a help

[Konstantin Rokossovski]

I use rehearsal, so I cant help you unfortunately. Maybe in the document of all the testimonials that thomas posted you can find sth?

[Fredo Corleone]

I don't use any technique anymore, you don't need any technique to be consistent with N < 7, when I was training at N = 9 I used visualization and chunking which I don't think it's optimal.

[Ruslan J]

Hey all,

4 weeks passed, I played 10 dnback games everyday, for me it usually results in about 30 minutes.

I still on dnback 7, my performance is slightly better and more stable, I rarely fall below 60% on dnb7.

I don't see any improvements in other areas.

Will update in 4 weeks

On Thursday, 1 December 2022 at 22:52:58 UTC-8 cipic...@gmail.com wrote:

i forgot to mention my chess rating.. my bullet rating is 2100 and blitz (3 min) is 2000. both on lichess. on chess.com bullet is 2000 and blitz 1800. i've been playing chess for 5 years now ...

i highly recommend that you do the iq test from the mensa book i've mentioned, as it's way more realistic of a measure of your iq, than the online tests. if you cant find it online for free, let me know and i'll post a link where you can download it from. it has 12 more tests with increased difficulty, with calibrated results

On Thursday, December 1, 2022 at 9:11:06 PM UTC+2 Claudiu Ciprian wrote:

konstantin, are u sure you scored 91 on " Spatial planning" from brainlabs.me ? it's way to high of a score compared to how you scored on the other tests. you would be placed in the 99th percentile with such a score ...

other than that, looking forward to see your evolution

my scores are as follows

Mensa iq test 115 - The test #1 taken from mensa's book ([Mensa] Harold Gale - Mighty Mind Benders_ Challenge Your IQ (1997, Carlton Books Ltd))

Dual Nback: 7nback (i've been playing for 2 years now, but i play seldom .. like 15 min every 3-4  days .. )

Brainlabs (results are best out of 5...haven't practiced much more):

Rotations: 144

Odd one out: 14,

Spatial planning: 36,

Feature match: -138,

Polygons: 58

Token search: 13

Paired associates: 6

Spatial span: 7

Monkey ladder: 9,

Grammatical reasoning: 25, (i'm not native english speaker)

Double trouble: 57,

Digit span: 8,

The wais IV digit spans:

Forward: 14

Backward: 14

Sequencing: 10

 Human Benchmark

Sequence memory: 24 

Aim trainer: ~550ms

Reaction Time: 200ms

Number memory: 10 

Verbal memory: 211 (trained like 15 times

Visual memory: 14

Chimp Test: 18 (got to 17 from second try ... didnt train much really)

Mensa IQ test (Norway): 128 (i dont think i'm that good though. have taken somtehing similar on iqtest.dk like 15 years ago and knew how to come up with solutions based on iqtest.dk)

[Tofe]

noticed anything?

[Recursion]

Konstantin, are you still continuing the experiment?

суббота, 8 октября 2022 г. в 22:17:03 UTC+3, Konstantin Rokossovski:

[David Wood]

Yeah I'm interested as well.  I did 2 hours of syllogimous a day for like 2 months perhaps, but then felt like I kind of had surpassed the usefulness of it other than just keeping my mind aware of certain relationships.  It needs more kinds of relationships.  I've been doing quad-n-back 30 minutes per day (down from 1 hour where I started) and am also doing image streaming 1 hour per day.

Interested to hear progress.  I cannot get passed quad-3-back still but I seem to be getting closer and closer.

[Konstantin Rokossovski]

Sorry that I took so long to post progress. Unfortunately I couldnt keep up an hour all the time. Here is the amount I practiced:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRmxB_uPhOQF8Ur-xj9FZMXTXOSAjEJzhisUTLFm0zcaKPJrAFaI_omUEe_iI5KSR0bIKjlJtKMFb1M/pubhtml

Keep in mind that I have practiced DNB for some time before (total training time approx: 100 hours) and Im close to a plateau. 

Here are my observations:

• Doing 1 hour i definitely saw results, I could focus for longer times and my cognitive functioning was on a higher level than it was before. 
• When I fell back to 15 minutes of each the progress kind of went away/plateaud: in those 15 minutes I could not push myself to the limit of cognitive functioning.
• Doing syllogimous exclusively for 30 minutes did not seem to help at all actually. 
  • I did not notice the same effects that 1 hour dual n back had; I didnt remember all my dreams, and I wasnt quicker with tasks that demand working memory.
  • It also does not increase focus in the same way that long sessions of dual n back to. 
  • I think part of the reason for the lack of noticeable effects is that I find it hard to push my brain to the limits with Syllogimous V3 in the same way one can push himself to the limits with Dual N back
  • Because I decided not to evaluate my reasoning ability until I reach 365 hours of brain training I dont have test scores to back up my observations. 
  • One part where it helped is that I finished a coding exam with lots of logic with 40 minutes to go (whereas before I would need every minute of the alloted time).
  • But so far I still prefer Dual N back over syllogimous. 
  • I also reached a plateau relatively quickly, I can now do nested binary in 60 seconds 75% of the time, but a month before I could do the same but then slightly slower: progress seems to be pretty finite. I imagined myself going to 7-8-9 propositions fairly quickly but I am disappointed so far. Then again, I think part of the reason is that I find it very hard to push myself to the limit with Syllogimous the same way that Dual N back does. 
• 10 days ago I decided to go back to training 1 hour Dual N back every day again, and I immediately saw results: focus became better, remembering dreams was very easy,  speaking fluency improved, memory retrieval, particularly short term, became way quicker. 
  • I do dual n back in 2 sessions of 30 minutes. I feel the 30 minutes is necessary because I seem to get in the zone after 10/15 minutes and can really push myself to the limit!
  • In december I did mostly manual mode (without moving up and down), that was not good for intensity as there was not much incentive to get high scores. Seeing how good you score (like 40/55/92%) and not wanting to move down a level really motivates me. Now I train normal mode again. 
  • In terms of levels I have become comfortable with Dual 6 back, and moved to dual 7 back a few times. But before I started this experiment I was comfortable with dual 5 back and at 30/35% dual 6 back, so no huge improvement there.
  • I think it was a mistake what I did in december/january where I would do Syllogimous until I got a headache/became uncomfortable and then switch to dual n back, now I keep going through the discomfort and headaches and I think that is a signal for the brain to improve. 
  • Some symptoms of post concussion syndrome (suffered a concussion 3 years ago and have intermittent symptoms) like headaches greatly abated and all but disappear again when I do dual n back for 1 hour a day. They showed in a not severe manner up in mid march and pushed me to return to Dual N back for 1 hours again. 

In the coming months I will continue with Dual N back for 1 hour a day and report back again. I will stop syllogimous for the coming months as I think Dual N back is more useful because I can push myself to the limit better. I wish there was a level/moving up and down mode in Syllogimous, I think there may be better results with immediate feedback and greater intensity, but the way Syllogimous is designed I find it very hard to push myself to the very limit. I also want conclusive evidence (at least for me haha) whether Dual N back provides exponential or constant benefits. However, just the increase in focus and presence of mind (I feel the prefrontal cortex: conscious thinking is very active, very useful for a dreamy/ADDish person as myself) is worth it for me. 

PS: @david wood: What real life benefits (if any) did you experience from Syllogimous training 2 hours a day. In terms of: day to day functionig, focus, reading comprehension, or math/hard science ability? Interested to know

PS: I also updated my document of Dual N back testimonials with more testimonials and ordered it compehensively:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTBhgQ_HxtQqWcAZFxZrg0C_3TQT3mIdd_32BXsbC4LP2NMkDd8-3D_ZRwG492IjRmyCT4i-orusMVC/pub

[Recursion]

Your commitment to the training regimen is admirable! Look forward to see the test results after you reach 365 hours of brain training.

понедельник, 3 апреля 2023 г. в 11:46:35 UTC+3, Konstantin Rokossovski:

[David Wood]

Syllogimous is different, it is not meant to really stretch cognitive ability in the same way that dual-n-back does, it is different.  Relational training exercises the understanding more than the working memory.  If your brain understands the relationships at a reflex level, you have essentially gotten the value out of it as it is the understanding itself that forms the intelligence jumps.

Syllogimous helped my directional sense.  I didn't even realize that my brain was organizing spacial relationships sometimes in reverse until I did a bunch of the space-3d relationships and it mostly has fixed this problem, resulting in a more accurate spacial organization of my environment.  Aside from that, I am not sure what benefits I have gotten from it but my general ability to understand things did increase a bit.  How much IQ gain?  I am uncertain of that.  Probably there is some increase in verbal ability and accurately imagining certain kinds of things.

Dual-N-Back is a specific stretch to the working memory in a way that other things tend to not produce, so I wouldn't compare them, as dual-n-back won't grow your relational ability and relational ability is probably more core to IQ than working memory after a certain amount of increase.  The limitation on Syllogimous is simply the limitation on the amount of relationships that it is built to practice and their relative complexity.  If the relationships practiced were significantly greater in number and complexity the IQ would increase more from it.

Right now I do the following every day:

a) 30 minutes of quad-n-back

b) 1 hour of image streaming (this is part of a year long experiment, I have been doing this for maybe 5 months)

c) 1 hour of spanish lessons on duo lingo (I live in Costa Rica)

d) some other sort of thing for 1 hour.  Sometimes it is syllogimous, sometimes something else.  

So far my opinion is that we have not found the holy grail that will consistently improve the IQ past certain limits.  We need something that will improve someone's IQ 2 points per month, but permanently if they do it 1 hour per day, until the limitations of human cognition have been achieved.  Whatever that is, we have not found it.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/brain-training/SP3avtfYRMM/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/brain-training/6aaccc9e-54dc-414e-986e-4c7d7d33d6e5n%40googlegroups.com.

[Programmer]

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jamie-Cummins/publication/369457646_The_effect_of_SMART_relational_skills_training_on_intelligence_quotients_Controlling_for_individual_differences_in_attentional_skills_and_baseline_IQ/links/642b36b0609c170a13f03ec1/The-effect-of-SMART-relational-skills-training-on-intelligence-quotients-Controlling-for-individual-differences-in-attentional-skills-and-baseline-IQ?origin=publication_detail

Based on this study, Relational Frame Training does not work. 

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/brain-training/CAA41yspBzNZMSk%3DhwjKQj6ctDuy06%3DnJXk0FuYw0p3u-_XFZjg%40mail.gmail.com.

[quint-t]

Programmer, this is about SMART, not relational frame training in general.

[Wilma Skillma]

Rft obviously doesnt work. The only thing that will ever increase your iq is working memory increase. But keep wasting your time playing puzzles, more advantage to me.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/brain-training/CAA8di5nHS8%2B%2BS%2BKa-q%3DsO0ReHFX4ekKVS72xyd7iCcXtKGA_dg%40mail.gmail.com.

[quint-t]

Wilma Skillma,

What do you see as an advantage? That others will do something else?
Do you think you're doing what's best?
That's not how it works.
If everyone is doing the same thing and abandons everything else, there will be no new discoveries.
The goal is always to accumulate different experiences and highlight what has given more benefit.

[Kuka Pipa]

Konstantin, how is your progress?

понедельник, 3 апреля 2023 г. в 11:46:35 UTC+3, Konstantin Rokossovski:

Sorry that I took so long to post progress. Unfortunately I couldnt keep up an hour all the time. Here is the amount I practiced: