Boxart Den bad

[Jean Aker]

Did you know that requesting rare boxart scans is bad?

The Den was removed from a FB group for asking if a scan could be made of a boxart not in the archive.

I not aware that asking for scans was bullying?

You live and learn.

 

Jean

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[Gerry-Lynn Fore]

Depends on Who - I guess.

Still appreciate what you and the group does.

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[JR]

Jean and everyone:

First, about the Facebook snub:

It's simple: Facebook is under attack from all sides right now -- and has screwed up royally over the past year with gaff after gaff -- so their lawyers are now pushing to purge any semblance of "impropriety" from Facebook (good luck with that, guys). Technically, you did ask -- in public -- for someone to scan possibly copyrighted material (although the copyright on most vintage boxart has long expired) and to send it to you amounts to "soliciting illegal behavior using Facebook as a conduit".

It's all politically-correct bullshit, but I'm sure it is technically a violation of the Facebook Terms of Service. That's the kind the world we live in these days.

Second and MOST IMPORTANT:

When it comes to "copyright infringement" there is a clause in International Copyright Law that refers to "Fair Use" -- and it is the reason that libraries can even exist. Think about: A library purchases only *one* copy of a book... or DVD... and then turns around and lends that copyrighted material out to hundreds of people for *free*! Nobody ever complained about that before, did they? Of if they did, they haven't managed to get the libraries closed down (yet).

Our BoxArtDen.com website functions under the same "Fair Use" law -- we do NOT have "subscribers" -- paid or otherwise -- as Jay Miller seems to think. We do not make a single penny off of the Gallery.  We do this for fun, folks. For free. Anyone in the world can view the images in our Gallery at no charge at any time. We don't even require a "library card" in the form of requiring people to register and log-in before they can look!

The BoxArtDen Gallery was created as a public-service operation catering to the specialty interests of model makers and those who appreciate the boxtop art work created over the past 70 years. We are *preserving* that artwork -- just as we are *preserving* Jay Miller's very excellent articles so that they are not lost in the rush to abandon printed matter for digital screens.

And we don't charge one penny for it -- you only "violate copyright" when you take someone else's work and try to make money from it. The courts have ruled very clearly on specific point many times.

THIRD and EVEN MORE IMPORTANT to Jay and anyone else:

As a matter of simple courtesy and goodwill it is the policy of the BoxArtDen Gallery to immediately remove anything from the Gallery as soon as possible if the copyright holder of an image formally requests that we do so.

As soon as I saw Jay's request that is exactly what I did.

Since as far as I know, this superb, incredibly well-done and detailed 160-page article/book on the B-38 Hustler which Jay created back in 1997 has not been reprinted since 2001 -- we thought he would like his efforts to be preserved into the future for all the world to see, read and appreciate. Apparently not. But there is no need to speak of legal action. If anyone who owns the rights to any image in our Gallery wants it removed all they have to do is ask and we will always oblige.

Th...Th... This is all for fun, folks!

-- J.R.

[A Jeffery]

In my opinion, there are far too many people (from all walks of life) searching through the fine print of life so as to take umbrage or feel in some way martyred.

In the dark (?) days before face book and the like many of us (I speak of modellers) collected articles,photos and other snippets and kept a scrapbook. Used for reference,nostalgia or preservation. I consider the FB groups I belong to,to be a part/chapter of such a format.

One such scrapbook of mine has many modelling or historical articles pasted within.Many ex magazine articles came with the caveat that they should not be stored in any retrieval system electronic or otherwise. "Fair share" maybe should be quoted, as well as any credit sharing, so as to avoid any miss understanding.?

I wonder if ,in Mr Millers case, that he feels the (collective) we are breaking his rice bowl.  Is the selling,lending or even buying of out of print material such a problem.

For my part it has in the past been my pleasure to share my box art.The fact that I bought, from an internet auction sight, much of  the said boxart,did I break the law? or loose part of my moral compass?.

Nuff sed. Stay safe and enjoy our Den.

Allan J.

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[Don McIntyre]

Another thing that makes me glad that I stopped using FB. I get on there every couple of months just to keep in touch with family and old Navy buddies. The lead up to the last election soured me on the whole thing.

There's always somebody ready to be offended…

Don McIntyre

Clarksville, TN

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[Michael Bludworth]

The Aerograph book on the B-58 is still available; it's on eBay and other accounts, for sale. If a copyright holder doesn't defend his copyright he can lose it. While we like to think there is a big "brotherhood" of enthusiasts in the modeling (and etc) world - it isn't. Miller has a right to insist on purchasing his book (and his many other books). He spent a lot of time, money and effort to produce this book and should receive a fair recompensation for issuing it. 

Use of quotations from the book is acceptable when part of a larger review of the item. The internet has made it much more difficult to protect the rights of authors (and etc) all while reducing the amount of traditional publishing being issued. 

Jim Miller has a reputation for protecting his works and their content. It can be ugly, but I'm sure he likes receiving some compensation for his original work which afforded tangible benefits to any aficionado of the B-58 (et al) and he deserves our respect for that. 

I've always wondered why Chris didn't slather a copyright all over the Den and it's contents...it's from his hard work that we have such a resource. 

Michael

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[aehar...@rockethistory.org]

As for why Chris never slather copyrights all over the Den is easy.
The wider the images spread the more they are protected from
disappearing into oblivion. I think it should also include box art
from photos and some that would be impossible to fix just to
insure it survives. Most museums would be pretty empty if they
only took perfect examples.

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[JR]

Michael,

After I honored Jay's request to delete his B-58 Aerograph book from our Gallery, out of my own curiosity I looked around on the web and every for sale listing I found on ebay, Amazon, thrift book, good reads, etc. were for the original Midland Publishing printed editions, last printed in 2001 as far as I know. Now it may be that Jay is selling his own personal printed copies, but every online seller I checked was using a different seller name so it appears simply to be a case of individuals legally offering their own used-book personal copy for sale. In that case, Jay is making nothing from those sales. I could not find any internet site where his stuff is listed for sale as a "digital edition".

For the record, the old idea that "If you don't protect your copyright you lose it" is simply no longer correct and has not been since the massive change to the international copyright laws back in the late eighties. Now, you have a legal copyright from the moment you create something original -- whether it is ever published anywhere or not. If you can prove you created it before anyone else, you have a legal enforceable copyright for a specific number of years. The amount of time varies depending on what it is.

As an author and artist who holds copyrights myself, I am dismayed by how easy the internet makes it for people to steal your work and resell it for profit. This happens with books on Amazon all the time -- you can find bootleg digital editions of Phillip K. Dick books on Amazon for sale offered by dozens of different sellers -- even though I'm sure the Dick estate has protested to Amazon about this. As a practical matter, the internet makes enforcing a copyright impractical for most people because of the lawyer and court costs -- unless you're a Big Company with money to burn on principle, like Disney.

But, of course, the BoxArtDen has no interest in trying to defend our "Fair Use" of images even though technically we could -- because our policy has always been that as a matter of simple courtesy and goodwill we will remove any image from the Gallery if the copyright owner formally requests that we do so  -- no matter how old the copyright is or if it has technically expired or not.

-- J.R.

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[JR]

Exactly. Chris realized that even if the official copyright had expired on most of the vintage boxart that he couldn't should not try to claim copyright for himself. The one thing he did do early on was not to copyright so much as to put a "claim" on those images he had laboriously restored to pristine condition images from old box tops that were badly damaged or faded. He felt that by putting so much work into restoring an image made it "new work" under copyright law. But so, Chris did not use the word "copyright" -- he specifically said "restored and enhanced images are property of the Box Art Den". But he gave up on even doing that much eventually, realizing that for better or worse, the internet is what it is.

-- J.R.