I am sorry, but the request does not make sense. It states that a
problem exists because "some RTOLs do not continue to the other
side of the intersection". Of course, none do, because they
require all traffic to turn right. So what exactly is the problem.
By the way, I have cycled on Kalanianaole Hwy along what appears
to be this location.
Aloha, Does anyone have suggested language for law to allow bicyclists to ride straight through RTOLs? One of our main roadways (Kalanianaole Hwy.) has about 8 RTOLs in a four mile stretch. Bicyclists rarely obey the law, because motorists are driving quite fast. (Speed limit is 35 mph. Drivers typically go about 45 mph.) In addition, it really just does not make sense to have to weave in and out of the bike lane just to go around the RTOLs.
Several Hawaii state senators are willing to introduce a bill, but I was just made aware of a concern that some RTOLs do not continue to the other side of the intersection, and allowing bicyclists to go through those particular lanes would not be a good idea. (Here's an example of that: Google streetview.)
--
--
To post: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Only rule: no personal commentary (please comment about content, not people)
To unsubscribe: bicycledrivin...@googlegroups.com
Group website: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving
Discussion archives: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/topics?hl=en
Glossary: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/glossary
Links: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/links
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BicycleDriving" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bicycledrivin...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bicycledriving/00fa7418-63d7-4c2a-b4a1-9e41454a91b9%40googlegroups.com.
-- John Forester, MS, PE Bicycle Transportation Engineer 7585 Church St, Lemon Grove, CA 91945 619-644-5481, fore...@johnforester.com
Aloha, Does anyone have suggested language for law to allow bicyclists to ride straight through RTOLs? One of our main roadways (Kalanianaole Hwy.) has about 8 RTOLs in a four mile stretch. Bicyclists rarely obey the law, because motorists are driving quite fast. (Speed limit is 35 mph. Drivers typically go about 45 mph.) In addition, it really just does not make sense to have to weave in and out of the bike lane just to go around the RTOLs.Several Hawaii state senators are willing to introduce a bill, but I was just made aware of a concern that some RTOLs do not continue to the other side of the intersection, and allowing bicyclists to go through those particular lanes would not be a good idea. (Here's an example of that: Google streetview.)
--
Thank you, Michael, but signs and markings would take a long time to implement. In one case, the state DOT flat out refused to put up a sign at Keahole and Kalanianaole Hwy. in Hawaii Kai. That’s a particularly bad intersection for bicyclists and pedestrians, made worse by a state design that did not adequately take into account their safety.
A hui hou, Natalie
--
--
To post: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Only rule: no personal commentary (please comment about content, not people)
To unsubscribe: bicycledrivin...@googlegroups.com
Group website: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving
Discussion archives: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/topics?hl=en
Glossary: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/glossary
Links: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/links
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BicycleDriving" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bicycledrivin...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bicycledriving/ec39f936-0365-8566-c0ab-1d16fc0c11f9%40comcast.net.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bicycledriving/CAMqSGjXX1Aeawem3tbxJs8AxhOYYatsC9pjP2V4LkfY4Ud8HyQ%40mail.gmail.com.
§291C-81 Required position and method of turning at intersections. The driver of a vehicle intending to turn at an intersection shall do so as follows:
(1) Right turns. Both the approach for a right turn and a right turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except that bicyclists may travel straight through right-turn-only lanes.
I am sorry, but the request does not make sense. It states that a problem exists because "some RTOLs do not continue to the other side of the intersection". Of course, none do, because they require all traffic to turn right. So what exactly is the problem. By the way, I have cycled on Kalanianaole Hwy along what appears to be this location.
On 12/12/2019 10:07 AM, Bike Mom wrote:
--Aloha, Does anyone have suggested language for law to allow bicyclists to ride straight through RTOLs? One of our main roadways (Kalanianaole Hwy.) has about 8 RTOLs in a four mile stretch. Bicyclists rarely obey the law, because motorists are driving quite fast. (Speed limit is 35 mph. Drivers typically go about 45 mph.) In addition, it really just does not make sense to have to weave in and out of the bike lane just to go around the RTOLs.
Several Hawaii state senators are willing to introduce a bill, but I was just made aware of a concern that some RTOLs do not continue to the other side of the intersection, and allowing bicyclists to go through those particular lanes would not be a good idea. (Here's an example of that: Google streetview.)
--
John Forester, MS, PE Bicycle Transportation Engineer 7585 Church St, Lemon Grove, CA 91945 619-644-5481, fore...@johnforester.com
Generally, when there's a RTOL and a bike lane, shoulder or other lane continues on the other side of the intersection, I'd like to law to allow bicyclists to be able to travel straight through. That would apply to places such as Kalanianaole Hwy. (I think it best to change the law, rather than put up signs or repaint all of the applicable intersections.)
There are a few RTOLs, however, where there is no direct lane into which a bicyclist would be able to travel. That is the type of situation I am referring as being a concern. In those types of intersections, we wouldn't want bicyclists to be able to travel straight through the RTOL, because then they would have to somehow merge to get into the travel lane on the other side of the intersection.
Here's the current law with red font indicating the proposed change. We just need to add something that says "when a lane or shoulder is available on the other side of the intersection" or something like that.Â
     §291C-81 Required position and method of turning at intersections. The driver of a vehicle intending to turn at an intersection shall do so as follows:
(1)    Right turns. Both the approach for a right turn and a right turn shall be made as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway except that bicyclists may travel straight through right-turn-only lanes.
John S. Allen
7 University Park
Waltham, MA 02453-1523 USA
781 891-9307 home
781 856-4058 mobile
jsa...@bikexprt.com
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bicycledriving/207767515.8508787.1576235762576%40mail.yahoo.com.
--
--
To post: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Only rule: no personal commentary (please comment about content, not people)
To unsubscribe: bicycledrivin...@googlegroups.com
Group website: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving
Discussion archives: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/topics?hl=en
Glossary: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/glossary
Links: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/links
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BicycleDriving" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bicycledrivin...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bicycledriving/b5c36e33-cf1b-d47c-0c23-e568ff49d7f2%40comcast.net.
--
--
To post: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Only rule: no personal commentary (please comment about content, not people)
To unsubscribe: bicycledrivin...@googlegroups.com
Group website: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving
Discussion archives: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/topics?hl=en
Glossary: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/glossary
Links: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/links
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BicycleDriving" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bicycledrivin...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bicycledriving/ffa46ed5-a36f-0b97-14f7-fa0fec5953cc%40johnforester.com.
Mr. Graff,
Whatever may be your thoughts about Motordom's preferences, the
fact is that Motordom invented bike lanes and forced them into
California law, from which most of the other states adopted
theirs. This is historical fact, neither surmise nor assumption.
To unsubscribe: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Group website: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving
Discussion archives: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/topics?hl=en
Glossary: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/glossary
Links: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/links
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BicycleDriving" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bicycle...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit
--
--
To post: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Only rule: no personal commentary (please comment about content, not people)
To unsubscribe: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Group website: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving
Discussion archives: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/topics?hl=en
Glossary: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/glossary
Links: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/links
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BicycleDriving" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bicycle...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe: bicycledrivin...@googlegroups.com
Group website: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving
Discussion archives: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/topics?hl=en
Glossary: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/glossary
Links: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/links
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BicycleDriving" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bicycledrivin...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bicycledriving/b7774046-a67a-46fd-ae34-e182180b4ddc%40googlegroups.com.
"completely eliminate any same-direction sharing and weaving between motorists and cyclists before the turn"...so all the conflicts happen during the turn. Fun!Of course, there won't be separate signal phases for cyclists. Nor is it clear which signal head (ped or vehicle) cyclists should be following. And California Vehicle Code still has no movement rules for these facilities. Who yields to whom?
On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 4:27 PM Scott Mace <mace...@gmail.com> wrote:
California cities are also implementing NACTO's "protected intersections" which completely eliminate any same-direction sharing and weaving between motorists and cyclists before the turn. San Jose has some of these and San Francisco is about to start installing them. Bollard manufacturers will do a bang-up business. (Pun intended)Scott Mace
On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 1:02 PM Kat Iverson <kat_i...@comcast.net> wrote:
--John's right. RTOL's don't continue on the other side of the intersection. That's why everyone has to turn right--there's no where for them to go if they go straight. You say that to avoid illegally going straight through a RTOL cyclists would have to weave in and out of the bike lane. Why is that? Doesn't the BL continue alongside the RTOL? Or do they drop the BL to make room for the RTOL? That can happen if the road isn't wide enough. A 6-foot BL can become a 9-ft RTOL if the road widens just a bit and/or they narrow the other lanes a bit. If the BL resumes on the other side of the intersection, there is somewhere for cyclists (although not motorists) to go if they go straight through the RTOL. If the BL does not resume, then cyclists need to use the through lane if they want to go straight
Because of those two possibilities, I don't think a statute can easily be written to cover them, and it wouldn't help cyclists who haven't been to that intersection and don't know whether the BL resumes. The transportation department has an immediate solution they can use wherever appropriate. They can add an "except bicycles" supplementary plaque to the RTOL sign at any place where the BL resumes. If it's a long RTOL, there should be such a plaque at the beginning (and at the end) of the RTOL. A plaque at the end isn't any use to a cyclist who changes lanes then then finds out at the intersection that he could have stayed in the same lane.
Portland seems to have another solution. I have seen RTOL's with a dashed line about 4 or 5 feet from the left line of the RTOL. Presumably this is meant as the position for through cyclists to ride in the RTOL. Of course, Portland doesn't care about the niceties of standardization nor of statutes. They are inviting cyclists to go straight through in a RTOL, and they are forcing motorists to straddle two lanes at once.
Additional, now that I have seen more e-mails:
Bills also take a long time to implement, and even longer to go into effect. As for Keahole and Halanianaole Hwy., I can understand not putting an exception there. It doesn't look like there is a BL leading up to that intersection so cyclists should be in the through lane even before the RTOL starts, and there is what might be a cycle track slightly downstream of the intersection, but not right at the intersection. Also the side street has dual RTOL's, so probably a lot of traffic. One problem with a through exception for certain vehicles (sometimes there is an exception for buses leaving bus stops) is that drivers on the side street can clearly see the RTOL, but not the exception. They are judging their ability to turn right on red on the assumption that everyone in the RTOL will turn right. If someone unexpectedly goes straight just as they are turning onto the road, that would be bad. Another problem with an exception is that during red lights, through vehicles block the progress of other vehicles which could otherwise turn right on red.
Kat Iverson,
Near, but definitely not in, Portland, Oregon
On 12/12/2019 10:07 AM, Bike Mom wrote:
Aloha, Does anyone have suggested language for law to allow bicyclists to ride straight through RTOLs? One of our main roadways (Kalanianaole Hwy.) has about 8 RTOLs in a four mile stretch. Bicyclists rarely obey the law, because motorists are driving quite fast. (Speed limit is 35 mph. Drivers typically go about 45 mph.) In addition, it really just does not make sense to have to weave in and out of the bike lane just to go around the RTOLs.
Several Hawaii state senators are willing to introduce a bill, but I was just made aware of a concern that some RTOLs do not continue to the other side of the intersection, and allowing bicyclists to go through those particular lanes would not be a good idea. (Here's an example of that: Google streetview.)
--
To post: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Only rule: no personal commentary (please comment about content, not people)
To unsubscribe: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Group website: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving
Discussion archives: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/topics?hl=en
Glossary: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/glossary
Links: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/links
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BicycleDriving" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bicycle...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bicycledriving/ec39f936-0365-8566-c0ab-1d16fc0c11f9%40comcast.net.
--
--
To post: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Only rule: no personal commentary (please comment about content, not people)
To unsubscribe: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Group website: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving
Discussion archives: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/topics?hl=en
Glossary: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/glossary
Links: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/links
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BicycleDriving" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bicycle...@googlegroups.com.
Current law:
§291C-145 Riding on
roadways and bikeways. (a) Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway at a speed less
than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at such time
shall ride as near to the right-hand curb, on the edge of the roadway, or on
the shoulder off of the roadway as practicable, exercising due care when
passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction; except
under any of the following situations:
Proposed change (mostly from Delaware statute):
When approaching an intersection
where right turns are permitted and there is a dedicated right-turn -only
lane, in which case a person may operate a bicycle in this dedicated
lane, even if the bicycle operator does not intend to turn right;
At the state level. Section 291C-123 has "making a legal turn" as an exception to the "no vehicle other than a bicycle" rule. Section 291C-81 (1) basically requires (the word it uses is "practicable") you to merge with the bicycle lane. This is consistent with the Uniform Vehicle Code recommendations.
At the city level (assuming Honolulu), Section 15-6.7 (d)(3)(B)(ii) says:
The person may operate or stop the motor vehicle or moped across the lane when necessary to turn into or turn from a street intersecting the lane;
--
--
To post: bicycle...@googlegroups.com
Only rule: no personal commentary (please comment about content, not people)
To unsubscribe: bicycledrivin...@googlegroups.com
Group website: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving
Discussion archives: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/topics?hl=en
Glossary: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/glossary
Links: http://groups.google.com/group/bicycledriving/web/links
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BicycleDriving" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bicycledrivin...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bicycledriving/ba11185f-b0d7-497b-b914-13daf1059e66%40googlegroups.com.
I appreciate this, and it makes sense when there's a bike lane.
On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 7:20:39 PM UTC-10, John Allen wrote:
John S. Allen
For the situation Scott talked about, and which I'm seeing installed in some places, through cyclists are kept to the *right* of right-turning traffic. Right hooks are essentially mandatory.
Here's a website promoting that idea http://www.protectedintersection.com/
(We would probably say they're using "protected" ironically.)
John S. Allen
Technical Writer/Editor,
http://sheldonbrown.com
CyclingSavvy Instructor
League Cycling Instructor #77-C
For the situation Scott talkedabout, and which I'm seeing installed in some places, through cyclistsare kept to the *right* of right-turning traffic. Right hooks areessentially mandatory.
Here's a website promoting that ideaÂhttp://www.protectedintersection.com/
(We would probably say they're using "protected"ironically.)
John S. Allen
Technical Writer/Editor, http://sheldonbrown.com
CyclingSavvy Instructor
League Cycling Instructor #77-C
Safety Coordinator, Charles River Wheelers
jsallen *at* bikexprt.com
http://bikexprt.com
http://john-s-allen.com/blog
http://streetsmarts.bostonbiker.org