Terminology Question

[Dan Sherer]

Hello all,

I'm a little stuck looking for a translation for a term. In Japanese dice games, there is often a player who is either handling the dice for the entire game or for one round of a given game, and may also be playing on behalf of the "house." This person can be called the Oya ("Parent") or the Domoto ("the base of the shaker"). I'm looking for a proper English translation, but all I have found in English descriptions of Japanese games is "dealer." I have also seen "the bank" used in descriptions of other games. Is "dealer" the preferred term here? Is there a better one?

Thanks,

Dan

[John McLeod]

"Banker" suggests that most or all payments are to or from this player, not between other pairs of players, so could be the best choice if this is the case. "Dealer" is a little strange if there is nothing (such as playing-cards) to be dealt. The term "shooter" is often used, for example in Hazard and Craps, for the player responsible for rolling the dice.

Hope this helps.
John

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[Dan Sherer]

Thanks for the reply John. 

I do find it weird that "dealer" is used in a non-card game contexts as well. But it seems to be how some have translated the term.

Also, my issue with shooter (which would work) is that in my head it seems to imply that the difference between him and the others is that he's rolling the dice, but he also should have a separate set of rules (though I suppose "banker" covers this even if just for a single round of the game).

Interesting in any case.

-Dan

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[John McLeod]

Note that in other games the banker does not have to be a person fixed throughout the game. There are games where different players take on the role of banker as the game progresses, with some rule for when the banker role is taken over by another player - after some special event or when the bank runs out of money. It would also not be that unusual for the banker role to be passed on to the next player in turn after each round of the game.

John

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[Malcolm J. Watkins]

Would 'croupier' serve?

Season's greetings,

Malcolm

On 17/12/2025 09:24, Dan Sherer wrote:

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[Dan Sherer]

Malcolm,

I had considered "croupier," but that seems inappropriate for a more informal game, at least from my sense of the word.

-Dan

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[Thierry Depaulis]

The Chinese have zhuang (庄), which translates as ‘pillar’ (e.g. in mahjong). Zhuanghe (庄荷) is a croupier.

Thierry

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[John McLeod]

So far as I know a croupier is normally a casino employee whose role is to collect and pay out bets and generally to supervise the smooth running of the game.

John

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[Jacob Schmidt-Madsen]

Hi Dan,

Are you looking at early or modern practices? In medieval India there was something called a pātanirṇāya, which literally means "one who determines the fall (of the dice)," though it is unclear whether he threw the dice or just counted the result. A corresponding term in medieval Germany was the Zähler or Rechner (lit. counter, calculator), whose job was to sum up the dice and calculate winnings and losses. I know that is not exactly what you are looking for, but thought it might be interesting with a bit of context (especially if you are looking into early gambling practices in Japan).

Best regards,

Jacob

[Jacob Schmidt-Madsen]

Also, writing in the 11th century, the Islamic scholar Alberuni notes as a peculiar custom among Indians that a third person throws the dice for them in backgammon. This is confirmed in a 12th-century Indian text which states that a pakṣapātaṃ vinā naraḥ (lit. 'a man without partiality') should throw the dice for the players in backgammon. It would be interesting to trace this (primarily Asian?) tradition of "human dice towers" as a way of understanding how attempts at manipulating results have been dealt with historically.

Best,

Jacob

[James Masters]

That's interesting, Jacob.  In the relief of 4 men playing Mehen in the tomb of Rashepses, I have wondered if the two people behind the people moving pieces on the board are assistants. They look like they are involved and not just spectating and they appear to be hiding something - which I now assume are guessing marbles for establishing piece movement.  Many people think that Mehen was a game for two players/teams so maybe they are servants or helpers for the two playing.  Although I suppose that it cannot be to avoid cheating. 

[Jacob Schmidt-Madsen]

Hi James,

You are touching on a very interesting question here: what are all those people doing in depictions of early (and often also much later) games. My own research indicates that team-play may have been more widespread than previously recognized, but there is of course also the possibility that they are assistants or spectators.

The medieval Indian gambling tradition I referenced above speaks of not just one but four "game-keepers" involved in making sure that everything plays out as it should. And evidence that I will be presenting together with Fangyi Cheng at the upcoming BGS Colloquium also indicate the presence of game recorders noting down moves in early China.

Best,

Jacob