Origins of toptafel engraving

[Bert Vertommen]

Hello

This is my first post here. Thank you, Jonas Richter for motivating me to join this group.

I am a 42 year old independant researcher, specialising in some old traditional games that were played in the Flanders region in Belgium. I also have a restauration workshop where I restore mostly wooden antique and vintage games for collectioners and museums. 

I am starting to write a book about the history of some of those games, including sjoelbak and toptafel.

As for the toptafel, I have quite some documentation, but one very rare and intriguing image seems to be difficult to locate. It is an engraving of a fair with some kids playing on the toptafel (kreiseltisch, table a toupie, table skittles game with spinning top).

You can find it here:

https://lourensbas.wordpress.com/2016/02/19/tollenspel-op-een-18e-eeuwse-kermis/

Lourens was a game researcher in the Netherlands. He died some years ago and his widow granted me the rights to use the digital image, but I would much prefer to know where the original is to be found. Lourens only writes that he “encountered it recently”. His widow looked trough his files and notes, but did not find anything about this image.

From the clothing, I would guess that it might be German, mid- 19th century. On the background there is also a toy selling lady. Perhaps on of you could possible recognise the kind of toys and so determine the time and place of this scene?

Thanks for any advice on this. And if anyone wants to exchange information on the game of toptafel or toupie hollandaise, please do.

Thanks a lot!

[James Masters]

I am already looking forward to buying your book! 

In Britain this game is virtually extinct although it's still popular in the USA (and still alive and kicking in France, Germany and the low countries, at least, I think).  However, Strutt (1801) does describe the game, calling it Devil amonst the Tailors, and showing that it was once reasonably popular here.

Don't want to burden the chat with more text on this but maybe some of the info that I collected over the years might be useful:

https://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/Table-Skittles.htm#Toptafel

You are probably aware of the remarkable collection of such games in France:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLd4vsp74SY .  I would have thought this fellow would be worth contacting...

[Malcolm J Watkins]

I have just realized that a version of the game was resurrected in the 1930s by Roberts Bros. as 'Skedaddle':

See Watkins, Malcolm J., 2020, Games-Makers 2 the Empire: Roberts Bros. of Gloucester 1890 - 1957, (Volume II), 45, 164-165, pls. 104 & 105.

Best wishes,

Malcolm

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[ulrich schädler]

The game is called « Jeu du roi » in French.

I have seen, quite a while ago, a documentation on TV (Bavarian TV) about traditional games in Southern Tyrolia. There, they found such a game inside a big table in a monastery (I do not remember which one however). It should be older than 19th century.

But the Swiss Museum of Games keeps a VHS of that documentary, which I had ordered at the time.

Cheers,

Ulrich

Am 24.03.2025 um 21:25 schrieb Malcolm J Watkins <m...@heritagematters.co.uk>:

I have just realized that a version of the game was resurrected in the 1930s by Roberts Bros. as 'Skedaddle':

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To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bgs4ever/5a1672c7-9bcd-4246-95db-2c9c659778e7%40heritagematters.co.uk.

[Bert Vertommen]

thanks for the information from different regions. I hadn't heard of the name "Skedaddle", but I did know about games in multiple castles in Tirol. 

I did contact the French guy with the large collection of spinning tops. he is admin on a spinning top forum, where I posted on this subject matter.

I found sources in France, Belgium, England, FUSA, Austria, Switserland and Czechia. as usual: it goes with many names.
the earliest mentions come from both france and germany. it is in Bestelmeiers catalog. First sources I found were around 1770-1775.

it is still being played in some cafés in Belgium and there are even some competitions being held locally.

As for the image I posted: can anyone offer me advice on how to further research the origins of this engraving? Any clothing historians around?

Op dinsdag 25 maart 2025 om 08:34:37 UTC+1 schreef u.schaedler: