Printing as an example: has embrace and extend accomplished it's objectives?

[Alan]

This is off the topic of group dynamics, but something I would like to ask/throw out/mention.  I am personally concerned that "Open Printing" on the Linux Foundation infrastructure has apparently fallen off the end of the world.

This concerns me on a number of levels, and it's not only about printing. 

• The Linux Documentation Project was beyond helpful.  The latest contribution was on 2015-03-17.
• LinuxPrinting.org was absorbed by the Linux Foundation. 
  
• In February 2007, Apple Inc. hired chief developer Michael Sweet and purchased the CUPS source code. 
• MIcrosoft joined the Linux Foundation with little notice, I think, and meanwhile the linux foundation has become a behemoth industry organization to leverage "open source" for projects many of which I could not explain for my life. 
  
• The Linux Foundation posted the following under the Events tab on its web site (while Open Printing has become mostly inactive, as far as I can tell):

"Over 35,000 of the world’s leading technologists and open source leaders will gather at Linux Foundation events in 2019 to share ideas, learn and collaborate." These events are for the most part unreachable by anyone who uses GNU/Linux as a tool.

I have spent a great deal of time over the past few weeks, and especially the past few days, trying to run down printing issues.  I have searched far and wide.  What I have found, mostly, is that the mailing lists and forums that I have relied upon, and niche sites like Linuxprinting.org and Open Printing have diminished to the extent I was unable to figure out whom to query.

This is undoubtedly on me.  I have contributed too little.   Well, I used to post almost everyday to the debian mailing list, until I realized that my suggestions were mostly useless, since I don't know what I am talking about. 

This failure of those who WANT to help to comprehend adequately the issues they are posting about (even to the absurd extent of posting a response "I don't know anything about <    >") is an affliction that infected the Ubuntu lists some years ago, and was one reason I abandoned Ubuntu.  I have mainly been using arch lately, by way of Manjaro.  I don't have a week to spend trying to tweak a system, should I install Arch, and even then it would take much longer to get my head around issues like setting up drivers, networking configuration, and so forth. 

Am I missing something? 

Manjaro installs well, and easily.  But the kind of support that other distros have had through email lists is not strong, and forums haven't worked well.  So I tried IRC, but that has always been a useless option for me.  If I could figiure out how to register a moniker, and start chatting, I have gotten help in the past, but maybe I am posting wrongly.  On the other hand, when I signed in, here was a mention that one may need to watch for 30 minutes or more.  I was in the middle of an issue that required me to reboot frequently. 

Mailing lists were excellent.  The LDP was the greatest, even if many articles were out-of-date or arcane altogether. 

These are a few of the issues that I have noticed.  Over the years, the systems "just work" to a great extent.  GNU/Linux is often derided as not a desktop system.  The corporate world is using it for all manner of technologically advanced purposes.  Automobiles, phones, spacecraft, movies.  Sadly many feel fine about using Macs for their work.  CUPS works fantastically on an Apple, but I was miffed when the community in which it had been incubated was left to languish, while the work of many seemed (AFAIK) was not paid forward.  

Any thoughts?   What can I do, as a mere "user"?

Alan Davis

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Alan (lng...@gmail.com):

> This is off the topic of group dynamics, but something I would like to
> ask/throw out/mention. I am personally concerned that "Open Printing" on
> the Linux Foundation infrastructure has apparently fallen off the end of
> the world.

It's pretty terrible, yes. You're correct about that, IMO.

[big snip]

> Am I missing something?

Your post was -- please forgive me being blunt so as to save time --
quite unfocussed, so your question cannot be answered as posed.

Part of your narrative concerned the failings of Linux Foundation.
In my view, Linux Foundation ever since immediately after its founding
has been a corporate-lackey group only interested in its own benefit and
totally unconcerned with the benefit of Linux and open source. And I am
hardly alone in that perception.

https://landley.net/notes-2010.html#18-07-2010

What Linux Foundation did to Grant Taylor's fabulous site
LinuxPrinting.org after taking it over from him, and converting it to
the relatively terrible sub-site "openprinting' was particularly
regrettable..


As to many of the other things you write, your point is unclear. Yes,
Easy Software Product, the corporate shell used by Michael R. Sweet, the
inventor of CUPS, sold his equity and corporate assets (such as they
were) including copyrights in 2007 to Apple, Inc., when they hired him
Yes, and? Your point is?

In my experience, for decades, the best place to go with printing
problems has been the primary support forum for your Linux distribution,
irrespective of which Linux distribution that is. General
non-distro-specific forums such as LUG mailing lists can also do the
trick.

Also, frankly in my view, many Linux software problems including
printing ones are best solved by careful and clueful use of search
engines, which I often call the 'key skill of the 21st Century'.

By the way, if you're saying that your particular (unspecified) printing
problem is trivially solvable on OS X, then kindly examine the OS X
configuration that does well. Whatever that is, it'll be equally
possible on any other CUPS installation. You might, e.g., need a
specific print filter set you haven't bothered to install, or you might
be missing some maddening proprietary junk like an HPLIP proprietary
plug-in.

Since you didn't bother to say Word One about the nature of your
technical problem, except that you use the CUPS print engine on Linux
and it's some sort of printing problem, it's not possible to assist you
otherwise at this time.

[Michael Paoli]

> From: Alan <lng...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Printing as an example: has embrace and extend accomplished
> it's objectives?
> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 15:56:46 -0700 (PDT)

> Any thoughts? What can I do, as a mere "user"?

Well, I was inclined to say ... and still relevant, ...
file good bug report(s).

Rick addressed many of the relevant points, bug good bug reports,
or even more generally, providing the relevant technical information
about the issue to the appropriate "forum" or the like is quite useful.

"I have a problems with 'X'", with zero to negligible detail is
(next to) useless. I mean, I inferred what from your post ...
something about some printing issue(s), something about some more general
dissatisfaction(s) ... as to distribution, version, printer make and
model, the diagnostic, and how one has it presently configured - or if
that's even still relevant ... I think about none of that information was
provided, so, ... folks that might otherwise know or provide useful
information regarding such, can supply about none in return.

Not that it's entirely useless to occasionally "vent" and talk about
(much) more general issues, ... but that's not nearly as useful to
solving a specific issue at hand (or even knowing if such still exists?).

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Michael Paoli (Michae...@cal.berkeley.edu):

> Well, I was inclined to say ... and still relevant, ...
> file good bug report(s).
>
> Rick addressed many of the relevant points, bug good bug reports,
> or even more generally, providing the relevant technical information
> about the issue to the appropriate "forum" or the like is quite useful.

/me bows.


I should elaborate briefly on a passage in my upthread post:

You might, e.g., need a specific print filter set you haven't
bothered to install, or you might be missing some maddening
proprietary junk like an HPLIP proprietary plug-in.

Many people are unware that CUPS is a printing engine aka framework
that, as often packaged in Linux distributions, comes with a quite
limited set of 'filters' (aka 'drivers') for specific printer types.
So, in many cases, all you really need to do, to accomodate a
particularly problematic printer, is to install an optional Linux
software package furnishing the relevant driver set.

What Linux Foundation did to Grant Taylor's storied LinuxPrinting.org,
in turning it into the much-lesser Linux Foundation sub-site
'OpenPrinting', is IMO somewhere between regrettable and unspeakable,
_but_ the entries at OpenPrinting about recommended filters [/drivers]
for particular printer models remains indispensible -- IMO -- and ought
to be one's first stop.

'HPLIP', the filter (driver) set from Hewlett-Packard for its printers
and scanners, has an undeserved reputation as meritorious open source,
when in truth, HP have consigned to secret-sauce HPLIP 'plugin'
proprietary software the necessary code to run many of their printers
and scanners. And those plugins are _not_ distributed inside the CUPS
packages of Linux distributions --- because they're proprietary crud.

Anyway, if a printer is usable under CUPS on any OS including Apple OS
X, then is usable under CUPS on Linux using the same techniques, because
CUPS is CUPS. It's genuine open source under the APSL licence.

Anyway, if the OP is serious about getting substantive help, he should
finally get around to providing specifics. Otherwise, he is just
venting rhetoric (e.g, this 'embrace and extend' bushwah), and that is a
waste of time, frankly.

[Alan Davis]

I would like to apologize for wasting time, with  my unfocused post.  I have been frustrated by printing problems, and have gotten lost in a maze trying just to find a thread... in vain.  I started installing Arch Linux from scratch just to check whether my setup (Manjaro) is the problem.  I don't think it is.  My Manjaro system has become comfortable, with all necessary tools, like a well-worn pair of shoes, so it would take several days to just get back to that state, on Arch.

It looks like my post, which was, I fear, an unfocused diatribe, left the impression of a support request. 

Here's my problem, in a nutshell: When I print many pages, more than, maybe 15, on my new(er) Epson printer, the job is interrupted, a few lines of fading text are printed, and t the job restarts automatically from the beginnng.  This printer defaults to Reverse page ordering, so it starts again on the last page.  This always happens, so, if I am not paying close attention, I was come back to see the output tray deep in pages, and the printer still working.  Over and over.  This problem could be hardware or software.  I have two or three theories:

1. Memory.  Some kind of memory must be involved i printing a job in reverse order.  Perhaps memory for this purpose has been exhausted.   The Fax component has sufficient memory for 100 pages; the nature or amount of printer memory is unknown.  This theory may be supported by the fact that each time a document restarts, it is at a SIMILAR, but not identical place and page. 
   
2. Wifi glitches.  Perhaps the wifi burps, the job is interrupted, and falls of the deep end.

To test theory #1, in part, I intend to configure this printer to print in "normal" page order.  Apparently this has been problematic for some others, as I have seen some lengthy instructions on how to set the options.   Any of these?

• using the gui doesn't show these kinds of options
• using lpoptions, or lpadmn---which interesting do things differently
  
• MAYBE editing the ppd file.  However, as it turns out there are multiple copies on the system, including one sequestered by CUPS. 
  
• Printing from the command line with options
  

This should be simple, right?  Specify the pages to be printed in "normal" (as opposed to "reverse") order.

I have attempted twice to post to Manjaro's forum.

I take the advice seriously, to do diligence when asking for advice.  I can often fix a problem, given time.  Ironically, some times the solution suggests itself to me after I have posted a help request!  Often. 

Thank you for the kindness of responding to my post.   I don't suppose I have clarified much in this one. 

Alan Davis

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[Rick Moen]

Alan, it would be excellent to be able to assist you. (And, yes, I
think everyone did understand that your upthread post wasn't itself a
support request.) So:

Quoting Alan Davis (alan3...@gmail.com):

> Here's my problem, in a nutshell: When I print many pages, more than, maybe
> 15, on my new(er) Epson printer, the job is interrupted, a few lines of
> fading text are printed, and t the job restarts automatically from the
> beginnng. This printer defaults to Reverse page ordering, so it starts
> again on the last page. This always happens, so, if I am not paying close
> attention, I was come back to see the output tray deep in pages, and the
> printer still working.

Distressing, indeed. Would you mind please posting back with the
specific Epson model? Also, over what connection interface do print
jobs reach the printer, e.g., wireless networking, USB, wired ethernet?
That information (answers to both questions) often proves essential.

While I'm waiting for you to get back to us on that:

1. I like (as in applaud) your way of thinking, that attempting to
narrow down whether it's software or hardware-based is a promising
approach. But before we can do much of that, we'll need the specific
printer model, because Epson printers differ very widely in their
printing technology implmentations. For example, some printers made by
Epson (and by some other manufactureres) are deliberately incomplete as
to the integral hardware, omitting the RAM and processor to build and
buffer a page raster. Instead, the user is prompted to install a piece
of proprietary software on the attached host PC, that serves as an
outboard 'print engine' for the printer, building the page raster in PC
RAM and then spooling it out over the PC's printing facility (e.g.,
CUPS) to the printer. (Generically, these are called 'GDI' printers:
As you can probably tell, I have a low opinion of that specific design
and always urge strenuously avoidance.)

Other printers take a variety of more-conventional approaches, and the
point is that debugging problems is a different proposition depending on
how the thing does printing.

2. Live distros[1] are often really useful for doing a comparative test,
because the test run then sidesteps your installed Manjaro system's
software. If the problem _doesn't_ replicate with the live distro,
then you can have high confidence you've isolated the cause to some
problem in your Manjaro installation. If on the other hand the problem
persists when running the live distro, then you have not yet narrowed
down the cause.

3. Any chance you can cross-check by printing to the printer from some
other computer entirely? Again, this helps isolate cause: If the
problem reproduces with different computers and OSes, then you can have
high confidence that you've isolated the cause to the printer itself
(and, I suppose, it's access cable or network mechanism).

4. If the printer happens to support multiple access methods (e.g.,
wireless networking, USB, wired ethernet), does the problem replicate if
you switch to one of the others? Again, this is using logic and
comparative data, making exactly one change and carefully not
introducing any other variables and then doing the same test print,
to isolate the root cause.

As an aside to that, I've seen in lots of years of reading that printing
straight to printers over WiFi (a feature mostly offered in inkjets) has
_tons_ of problems.

And I should distinguish, here: The laptop I'm typing on reaches
everything else without exception including the house's Lexmark E250dn
laser printer over WiFi, but that's not what I'm talking about.

our Lexmark printer is connected over wired ethernet (from the Lexmark's
RJ-45 ethernet port) to a wireless access point (WAP). The WAP bridges
that traffic to the wireless network segment serving my laptop and other
household computing devices. By contrast, what I'm talking about are
printers reached _directly_ over Wifi. That has for some years been a
recipe for trouble, largely because it entails dodgy and proprietary
non-standard software layers to carry the printing traffic.

> To test theory #1, in part, I intend to configure this printer to print in
> "normal" page order. Apparently this has been problematic for some others,
> as I have seen some lengthy instructions on how to set the options. Any
> of these?
>

> - using the gui doesn't show these kinds of options
> - using lpoptions, or lpadmn---which interesting do things differently
> - MAYBE editing the ppd file. However, as it turns out there are

> multiple copies on the system, including one sequestered by CUPS.

> - Printing from the command line with options

I am unclear on what specifcally you are referring to, when you say 'the
GUI'.

Usually with printers -- and, again, we unfortunately have no idea what
printer you have, except that it's an Epson -- there is some means to
configure them via front-panel controls or some similar mechanism. You
should find details in the user manual, which if you don't have one can
(and should) be found online via search engine.

Usually, the printer's built-in administrative interface, however it is
reached, has other functions such as making the printer conduct a
diagnostic self-test and making it print out a test page and often one
displaying all of its current settings. I would encourage you to
explore that.

I doubt that you should go around editing PPD files. For one thing,
I've never heard of a printer problem best addressed by local PPD
hackery. For another, you risk introducing yet more uncontrolled
variables into the test environment, which is the exact opposite of what
you should be aiming to do.



[1] I haven't done much playing around with live distros in years, so much
knowledge is rusty. When I last did, I was fond of Siduction, because
it used very cutting-edge versions of constituent application and system
software, and was released every quarter. This is very helpful if
someone has done the masochistic thing and just bought a spanking-new
model of something that thus needs cutting-edge driver software (if a
driver yet exists at all).

One thing I remember about Siduction: They shared the somewhat cranky
stance of their Aptosid forebears (having been a fork of Aptosid) that
the distro shall not bundle proprietary drivers in the ISO, so
retrofitting such drivers into the runtime system, where necessitated by
poor hardware selection, becomes an additional slog.

Hmm, as often happens with these projects, their release schedule has
been slacking off more and more:
https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=siduction
At this date, the last ISO release (in eight Desktop Environment
flavours!) was well over a year ago.

The ideal live distro would be one with frequent ISO releases, a
cutting-edge focus and a 'rolling' model generally, and inclusion of
proprietary driver junk to the extent permitted by law.
A Distrowatch search brings up this list of candidates:
https://distrowatch.com/search.php?ostype=Linux&category=Live+Medium&origin=All&basedon=All&notbasedon=None&desktop=All&architecture=All&package=All&rolling=Rolling&isosize=All&netinstall=All&language=All&defaultinit=All&status=Active#simple

Over and over. This problem could be hardware or
> software. I have two or three theories:
>

> 1. Memory. Some kind of memory must be involved i printing a job in

> reverse order. Perhaps memory for this purpose has been exhausted. The
> Fax component has sufficient memory for 100 pages; the nature or amount of
> printer memory is unknown. This theory may be supported by the fact that
> each time a document restarts, it is at a SIMILAR, but not identical place
> and page.

> 2. Wifi glitches. Perhaps the wifi burps, the job is interrupted, and

> falls of the deep end.

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/berkeleylug/CAF%2BxKT5s-0ej%3D-Dyo8PqyPTXVyn28-cVfa1SspAcQ2UXdrTx-A%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rick Moen]

Around 2:40pm Monday, I wrote a bunch of specific suggestions, and asked
two important questions (what Epson model, what conneciton interface
being used on the printer).

So... here we are, a bit over two days further on. Alan Davis,
how's it hangin'?

[Alan Davis]

Hello, Rick:

I apologize for my rudeness, in not answering you right away.  Also, I appreciate your checking.  Meanwhile, I have reached out in several directions; the problem(s) are possibly in an improved state.  I refer to the Epson ET-4750.  Yet another example of several possible causes, hardware or software, drivers or wifi.  And actually at least two distinct problems: scanning had become impossible; and the problem with long jobs crapping out and restarting.  Ideally, one would change one thing at a time, until he ruled out at least a number of potential causes.  However, desperate flailing, in a confounded state of mind, leads one to change any and all possible factors and hope one of them was the culprit.  As I have done.  Perhaps, if issue is solved, the other one will as well.

For one thing, I have reinstalled Manjaro i3 on a different partition.   I also hooked up a USB cable.  I had fooled around with the ppd file, and looked for ways to tweak settings that are not visible on the CUPS Web portal to localhost:631 (which I erroneously referred to a a "GUI" previously). 

I posted to the Manjaro Forums, and received a couple of answers.  Sinisterbrain had this interesting insight:

"As I understand how printing works. The system/CUPS will send pieces of the print job if there's not enough memory in the printer or if there is, it just sends the whole thing. Either way the printer will break the job into chunks and print them"

Perhaps useful, perhaps not.

After I discovered that the USB cable was plugged in improperly on the printer side, and connected it, finally, a few boots later, a hopeful message was received:

Bus 001 Device 008: ID 04b8:1129 Seiko Epson Corp. ET-4750 [WorkForce ET-4750 EcoTank All-in-One]

Since that time, I was able to scan a document with the native Epson tool "utsushi". However, neither gscan2pdf nor simple-scan detected the scanner.  Even when simple-scan was run as root, no luck was to be had.

This new Manjaro setup somehow ended up with normal printing order as the default, where reverse order was the default in the other Manjaro.  A long document printed through to the end, which is hopeful.   If this is a solution, this may imply one of at least three different changes have solved the issue.  Maybe more...  fine with me; unhelpful insofar as resolving the root cause.  Fingers crossed.  

During the meantime I had written an email to Tomas Pospisek, who had posted information on OpenPrinting.org about at least one similar printer, telling him that I had found the USB id for the ET-4750, in hopes that this might help somehow in speeding the development of a specific driver.  In that letter, I had mentioned, as an afterthought, my problems.  Surprising to me, he answered with some extremely useful information:  

• I'd guess if you run out of space in your /tmp or /var or /home
  partition, then printing might break.
• Also, if you are regularily updating your Linux installation (or it is
  regularily updating itself), then something might have broken in mid-way.  [This informs me that some of the instances of my updating kernels resulted in a non-bootable system, as I had suspected.]

For now, I am holding back on any further pursuit.  There are some hopeful signs. 

I plan to edit the config files of sane and the bizaare driver from Epson that Epson will not support.  Maybe if the hardware issue is suspected I will contact Epson Support. 

My apologies, and my thanks.  Very few would go to such lengths to correspond with anyone on such an issue as fuzzy as this one. 

I am in awe of the breadth of your knowledge and your kindness.

Alan Davis

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[Rick Moen]

Quoting Alan Davis (alan3...@gmail.com):

> I refer to the Epson ET-4750.

As you know (but for collective knowledge), this is an 'all-in-one' (aka
multifunction) device: It includes printer functionality, plus scanner,
fax, and in-a-pinch photocopier functions. The printing engine is
inkjet.


I have some personal opinions on the shopping involved, which of course
doesn't help you at the moment but I'll mention it pro bono publico.

1. All-in-one devices have always seemed unusually problematic, even
though there's nothing inherently wrong with the concept. I would
always avoid buying them.

2. I would also avoid buying inkjet except for very specialised
applications. The economics of supplying them with ink is inevitably
not good (very high cost per page), and the manufacturers seem to
be strongly attracted to secret-sauce proprietary protocols and
techniques.

I would usually gravitate towards a printer (that is not also a scanner,
etc.) based on a popular, robust laser or LED print engine, that has
or can be fitted with an ethernet port, and that accepts the PCL and/or
PostScript print control languages. (If I also needed a scanner, I'd
get a separate best-of-breed scanner.)

Back to your device:


The Epson EcoTank ET-4750 understands the 'ESC/P-R' print control
language that is proprietary to Epson. It doesn't do PCL or PostScript
printing.

The Epson EcoTank ET-4750 accepts print jobs via any of these three connection
methods:

o USB
o direct WiFi submission
o wired ethernet

To me, that choice is a no-brainer. I'd go wired ethernet. (Direct WiFi
is in my experience a particularly bad choice, ripe for problems and
difficult to diagnose.)


The Epson EcoTank ET-4750 has a built-in Web server for access to its
internal configuration functions and for printing out test pages, etc.
They call this the 'Web Config' functionality. However, you can also
configure many (all?) of the settings via the printer's 'control panel'
and what I would guess is an LCD small screen.

Here's the product manual:
https://files.support.epson.com/docid/cpd5/cpd53997.pdf


Here is discussion at the Linux Mint forums about getting printing and
scanning going to an ET-4750. Notice the reference to some secret-sauce
Epson files one can download for CUPS (printing) and SANE (scanning)
stuff. https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=264758

TurboPrint has a for-pay proprietary print driver for the ET-4750:
https://www.turboprint.info/printer_Epson_EcoTank_ET4750.html
(Developers of proprietary drivers can get secret-sauce information from
the manufacturer under NDA, while coders of open-source drivers cannot.
This is one reason why it's in your interest to avoid secret-sauce
hardware to the extent possible.)

Likewise, VueScan, which is a for-pay proprietary alternative to SANE,
has drivers that vendor Hamrick Software developed:
https://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/epson_et_4750.html

The OpenPrinting page about the ET-4750 doesn't say much, but this page
covers the downloadable CUPS driver you can download from Epson, which
driver is called epson-escpr (because it outputs the ESC/P-R print
control language).
http://www.openprinting.org/driver/epson-escpr

But I'm gathering that some distros make the epson-escpr CUPS driver
available as a distro package. For example, Ubuntu provides it as
package printer-driver-escpr in the 'Universe' package collection.


Hope that helps. But, next time, consider eschewing all-in-ones and
inkjets. (Here endeth the sermon.)

> Since that time, I was able to scan a document with the native Epson tool
> "utsushi". However, neither gscan2pdf nor simple-scan detected the
> scanner. Even when simple-scan was run as root, no luck was to be had.

Epson was able to build the secret sauce into utsushi.

> I plan to edit the config files of sane and the bizaare driver from Epson
> that Epson will not support. Maybe if the hardware issue is suspected I
> will contact Epson Support.

They will say they dige no technical support for Linux, if you mention
Linux. (So, if you intend to assert a hardware defect, I'd recommend
avoiding mentioning Linux if possible.

> My apologies, and my thanks.

Yr. very welcome, and best of luck to you.