Replacing the In Mast Furling Line

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slam.1956

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Feb 24, 2021, 8:04:34 PM2/24/21
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Hi There,
I am rebuilding the inmast furler on my 2010 B34 after finding that is increasingly tight to furl or unfurl. I have just replaced the Sails with new ones so thought this was a good time to do this. Looking on the UK Zspars site i find that they suggest 10mm line which believe would be too tight in this furling drum. I had 8mm line which I was going to replace with 8mm spectra but even this seems to be rubbing on the backplate. 
I have bought some 6mm line to try to reduce the friction further but wonder what others with a similar Zspars or USspars In mast furler have done?
I also found that the bearings at the top and bottom of the furler drum were completely absent. This seems to be partly due to the design having no proper cage for the bearings. Also cant find the part no of the bearings in order to replace them. Does anyone know what size these bearings are. Given that these bearings are supposed to be dry how do you keep them in when reassembling?
My furler is apparently known as the small furler z400e if that helps.
Any tips or advice would be welcomed.
Steve 
Makani - Beneteau 34.
Australia.

chris evans

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Feb 24, 2021, 8:27:32 PM2/24/21
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I believe all the furling lines are 8mm or 5/16  I replaced mine and have no issues, as for bearings if they are like the outhaul car and  traveler they were just balls delrin 6mm or 1/4 for the outhaul car and 8mm or 5/16 for the traveler.I believe the same balls are used in the mast for furling most likely the 8mm.I upgraded my balls on outhaul car and traveler to torlon balls  which Harkin makes.Just google them they are harder than delrin and less friction

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Harold LaBonte

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Feb 24, 2021, 10:16:58 PM2/24/21
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Makani, we just bought an oceanis 45 with in mast furling.  bearings in the furling unit were destroyed.  had to replace the entire unit.  this is 2015 boat.  i also noticed that when the mast rigger was finished he replaced my original furling line with slightly less diameter.  
Harold
California

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Daniel Ratko

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Feb 24, 2021, 11:08:27 PM2/24/21
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I had US spar rebuild mine, came with all the bearings and line.

Dan

Ben Campbell

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Feb 24, 2021, 11:16:35 PM2/24/21
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Mine probably needs a rebuild, but the last time I removed the screws, the backing plates fell down the mast and were a royal pain to get back in place to reinstall it. Has anyone else had that problem, and did you find a solution?

Ben Campbell
09 Beneteau 31 “Dancing Days”
Lewisville Lake, TX

Daniel Ratko

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Feb 24, 2021, 11:21:33 PM2/24/21
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They reinstalled it in rebuild.

As for getting the backing plate out, because I did the same exact thing, I used a cheap parts grabber and my phone camera /light to remove it.

Dan

Ben Campbell

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Feb 24, 2021, 11:26:19 PM2/24/21
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To clarify: retrieving the plate was a minor pain. Getting the plate to stay put when reinstalling the drum was the major pain.

On Feb 24, 2021, at 10:21 PM, Daniel Ratko <dra...@gmail.com> wrote:



mro...@awdmar.com

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Feb 25, 2021, 7:49:43 AM2/25/21
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I had the same issue - huge pain, almost lost a finger trying to get the apparatus reinstalled. Ended up strapping hose clamps (stainless steel) on the outside around the mastone at the top of the unit and one at the bottom. Works great and not too unsightly. US Spars told me they recommend stepping the mast to reinstall using screw plates! Designed for ease of manufacturing not repair. Poor engineering/design if you ask me.
Heavy duty zip ties will work in a pinch too. Good luck.

Thank you and please contact me with any questions.

Mike

On Feb 24, 2021, at 10:27 PM, Ben Campbell <b...@nostrum.com> wrote:



JoeT

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Feb 25, 2021, 11:55:39 AM2/25/21
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The backing plates are a constant problem. I've tried using epoxy, 5200 and other adhesives to hold them in, with limited success. I'm considering doing a drill & tap on them to actually bolt them in place.

JoeT
'06 B343

mro...@awdmar.com

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Feb 25, 2021, 12:08:53 PM2/25/21
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A sail boat charter co. on my dock did that with great success. They have several boats that in constant use so lots of wear and tear on the furlers.

Thank you and please contact me with any questions.

Mike

On Feb 25, 2021, at 10:56 AM, JoeT <joetomb...@gmail.com> wrote:

The backing plates are a constant problem. I've tried using epoxy, 5200 and other adhesives to hold them in, with limited success. I'm considering doing a drill & tap on them to actually bolt them in place.

Ben Campbell

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Feb 25, 2021, 12:12:50 PM2/25/21
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I’m trying to picture that—are the hose clamps holding the drum in place instead of the screws? Are the clamps permanent?

Ben.

Rich Simoneau

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Feb 25, 2021, 2:15:53 PM2/25/21
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I had the factory redo the furling drum and line.  I asked them about the bearings and they said they use a waterproof grease.  I had the mast down and elected to also re-lube the slide at the top of the furler.

 

The slide came out the slot in the mast with a little coaching.  A large retaining ring holds it all together- Bearing top and bottom.  Got a BIG surprise when I took off the retaining ring and the first bearing race—the balls are all loose between the races.  Recovered them all and cleaned tall up with thinner.  Greased the first race and the first set of balls – the grease held the balls in place while the first inner race was installed.  Same with the second bearing races and balls.  Completed with the retaining ring.

 

It was LOTS of fun trying to furl the mainsail (it didn’t) until I figured out that I had installed the slide upside down.

 

If you have the furling drum out  I recommend cleaning/greasing the slide. Found the waterproof grease at Home depot I used the green one

 

Rich

Arnold Hollander

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Feb 25, 2021, 2:45:48 PM2/25/21
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I was constantly jamming my sail as I furled.  Rigger said my spiral cam was worn.  He replaced the inhaul with a narrower line.  Works like a charm.


Michael Roach

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Feb 25, 2021, 3:34:52 PM2/25/21
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Ben, 

Here are some pics prior to placing ss hose clamp. Sorry for the inferior quality, you’ll need to zoom in tight to see the furler "jury rigging". I used heavy duty zip ties to hold  over until the hose clamps arrived. On my boat, 2014 Oceanis 37”, the faceplate (?) of the furling drum is notched and when inserted in the mast rests securing in place. I was able to successfully use original screws and backing plate on the top of the furler mechanism, but at the bottom no luck. There must be 4 - 5 plates at the bottom of my mast. I was applying super glue to the plate in an attempt to hold iin place until screws where set but that didn’t hold. Plate after plate keep dropping and landing glue side down so retrieving with grabbers proved futile. There should be a small (ish) access point at the bottom of the mast IMHO. Lot’s of crap at the bottom of my mast, ball bearings, broken pieces of the original drum, shackles, etc.

Pic of the ss hose clamps and work in progress also attached here. The hose clamp kit I purchased is a “make your own”, providing the ability cut the length to fit.
good luck and keep us posted.


Thank you and please contact me with any questions.

Michael Roach
AWD Marketing Communications, Inc.
1735 W. Diversey Pkwy., Suite 617
Chicago, IL 60614
773.480.9185
mro...@awdmar.com
www.awdmar.com

Ben Campbell

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Feb 25, 2021, 3:40:53 PM2/25/21
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Interesting. When I took out the drum for service several years ago, I tried gluing them back in place and had no luck. Eventually a rigger put it back together for me, but I never found out how he did it. (He suggested I call him first if I ever get the urge to disassemble it again.)

I thought about using 5200, screwing them down without the drum in place, and letting it set for a week or so. But I am afraid  one might not be able to get the screws back out.

Ben, 

<zip_2.jpg><zip_tie_1.jpg><broken_furler.jpg><mast.jpg><ss_clamp.PNG>

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Michael Roach

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Feb 25, 2021, 3:52:05 PM2/25/21
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US Spars suggest stepping the mast to perform the repair - yeah right. Although I do read that I should step my mast periodically for inspection, etc. I have owned the boat for 3 years and the previous owner was original. I'm sure he never had the mast down either. When I eventually do, I will have the bottom plates and screws put in place.

As I mentioned previously, there is a fractional ownership company with 7 - 8 boats on my dock, b/c of the repair/replacement frequency they are now drilling holes from the outside through the faceplate and mast, use a threading tool and then screws from the outside in. Seems to work well for them.


Thank you and please contact me with any questions.

Michael Roach
AWD Marketing Communications, Inc.
1735 W. Diversey Pkwy., Suite 617
Chicago, IL 60614
773.480.9185
mro...@awdmar.com
www.awdmar.com



Harold LaBonte

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Feb 25, 2021, 11:13:45 PM2/25/21
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This seems unnecessarily difficult.  perhaps you were far from help.  In long beach, the riggers replaced our furling assembly in about two hours.  total cost for the assembly and installation about $1,000.  we got the assembly directly from Beneteau. 
Harold

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slam.1956

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Mar 3, 2021, 9:04:06 PM3/3/21
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FYI USSpars have pointed me to the parts used in their rebuilt kit and the bearings are 5mm. In the meantime, I have rebuilt mine with 3mm bearings as they seemed to sit well without standing too proud of the bearing casing. So the next question should be about the bearings themselves. Should I just use SS bearings or Torlon or Delrin? 
Also referring to the backing plates, mine are glued in place by someone clever, thankyou who ever you are. And the furling line . Although 8mm is recommended on  mine 8mm seemed to be rubbing against the backing plate so I have replaced this with 6mm line which has no friction points at all and still bites on the winch.
Is it just me or does it seem these are a bit under-engineered for the job? Why not make the Furler bearing a sealed unit that drops into a shallow groove on the housing? Or even have the bearings in a bearing cage so that they don't go a wandering?
Steve
Makani B34

Harold LaBonte

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Mar 3, 2021, 10:22:00 PM3/3/21
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Steve, i wrote about our experience replacing the same assembly on our 45.  we bought and replaced the entire assembly, so i cannot comment on the process of replacing the individual bearings in your mast.  i did notice the rigger that replaced our furling assembly downsized the furling line to smaller diameter that still works with the winch.  If the bearing in your assembly are needle bearings not ball bearings, i have some experience.  years ago i rebuilt an outboard motor with needle bearings that were not in an assembly casing.  I wrapped them around the shaft with dental floss and as i got the engine pieces almost closed i pulled out the dental floss.  that worked.  
good luck
Harold

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Harold LaBonte

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Mar 3, 2021, 10:29:28 PM3/3/21
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Steve, if you are dealing with ball bearings, you might try trapping them with pipe tape used for pipe fitting of threaded pipe.  this material could stay in place to hold the bearings until you have completed assembly.  it is teflon like material and could be left in the assembly over time it would be destroyed and fall away. 
just a thought. 
Harold

slam.1956

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Mar 3, 2021, 10:32:32 PM3/3/21
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Thanks Harold thats a good tip, So far using some marine bearing grease has been enough to keep them in place. btw the bearings are ball bearings

Scott H. Sexton

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Mar 3, 2021, 10:43:32 PM3/3/21
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When I was repacking the bearings on bicycles, I would put grease on the bearing race and place the bearings in the grease.  That seemed to keep them in place until the assembly was completed.

 

 

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Scott H. Sexton

Sexton Consulting            www.sexton.com


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From: benetea...@googlegroups.com <benetea...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Harold LaBonte
Sent: Wednesday, March 3, 2021 21:29
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allendick

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Mar 4, 2021, 8:08:41 AM3/4/21
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Not sure about the model under discussion, but on the 1994 Oceanis 351 I bought four years back, I always found the in-mast furling balky and difficult.  

I assumed that was because it was an early version, however I called in my rigger because it was getting more problematic and figured someone should examine the top of the mechanism. I feared bearing issues or worse.   I also suspected that my sailmaker had installed the main with a half twist around the spindle after repairs while I was away such that the sail would not come out the last little bit.  I'm handy but figured it was time to call in the pros since they deal with things like this all the time and what might take me days and end up with a call to them anyhow might take them an hour. That proved correct.

They dropped the sail and rectified the twist problem and told me the bearings are fine and that the friction I was noticing was due to the furling line rubbing inside the mast.  I was doubtful, as the line seemed the correct size fit well and rolled up nicely on the helix in the mast.  However, the line was old and getting a bit fuzzy and for some reason I can't recall I happened to have a new length of the same or slightly smaller size on hand and I said let's change it.

I was blown away by the results. A system that was troublesome and required fiddling with vang and sheets, going on deck and pulling the foot, etc.  plus sometimes assistance with a winch suddenly became easy to operate by hand without any fiddling under all conditions.

I never would have guessed.

slam.1956

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Mar 4, 2021, 9:28:54 PM3/4/21
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allendick, That is worthwhile mentioning.
On my Bene 34 from 2010 I have not only replaced the furling line with a smaller diameter line but also installed new sails and I have also noticed that at the Head of the sail I seem to have some unexplained twist. I think this also comes down to some unusual design choices. Where the sail connects to the furling spindle at both the top and bottom is with a pretty standard styled Shackle. narrow at the top and a rounded one at the bottom. It seems to me there is an element of potential for problems to be created where the sail loop at the top and bottom must be twisted in order to connect to the shackle. I am considering replacing mine with half twisted shackles so that the sail loop aligns with the Furling Spindle. I am not sure how much difference this would make but it seems to me that if its a bit twisted at the top and at the bottom that the motion of furling and unfurling would combine to create a noticeable twist. I also noted that the recommended line weight of 8mm is very snug on the Helix. Even with a new line, it was noticeably rubbing on the backing plate. I am considering splicing the 8mm line onto the 6mm I have installed from where it leaves the furler at the mast just so I have something a bit more substantial to grip when holding the line, 6mm is very small for my older hands grip.
I have rebuilt my furler drum bearings but may need to redo it as the bearing sizes that sit top and bottom of the was a bit of a mystery as the diagrams from Zspars doesn't include the size of the bearings themselves, this was strange given their propensity to fall out due to the design. I took the whole piece to a bearing specialist and they determined that 3mm sits within the top and bottom case without leaving room for them to fall out. Eventually, US Spars very kindly provided me with the size which is 5mm. This will make reinstalling it difficult as the bearings will be proud of the casing (another design flaw).  
Further to my annoyance with the design, the Helix which is made out of some type of plastic is not bonded to the aluminium pole it sits on, apparently a later one than mine is actually bonded. On mine to prevent the helix from slipping on the pole it has been rivetted in place. while I see that this will stop it slipping prematurely it also makes the whole thing more prone to fracturing which was why I replaced it in the first place. No doubt I'll be going through this exercise again in the future.

Allen Dick

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Mar 4, 2021, 10:08:00 PM3/4/21
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> Where the sail connects to the furling spindle at both the top and bottom is with a pretty standard styled Shackle. narrow at the top and a rounded one at the bottom. It seems to me there is an element of potential for problems to be created where the sail loop at the top and bottom must be twisted in order to connect to the shackle.

In my case, I think that when the sail was installed, the spindle turned a half or whole turn between the time the head was attached and the tack was shackled, causing the sail to not completely exit the slot at the top.  It was hard to see from the deck, but looking up the mast at the bolt rope seams the distortion was fairly obvious.  I don't know for sure but something kept the top and bottom from being in sync.

BigEasy

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Mar 7, 2021, 9:26:19 PM3/7/21
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New bearings,  individual or complete set are available from US Spars,  same for the backing plates.  Don't Ask how I know of the backing plate availability .
One trick to extend the life of the furling line is to place a washer between the aluminum furler cover plate and the furling mechanism frame;  it provides a bit of additional clearance to prevent the swollen line from rubbing on the inside of the  cover plate.  Next  time I remove my furler to clean and replace the line,  will try to epoxy the backing plates inside the mast.  Don't use too much epoxy and lubricate the threaded screws liberally to keep the backing plates in place while setting.

Allen Dick

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Mar 7, 2021, 9:57:12 PM3/7/21
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>  Next  time I remove my furler to clean and replace the line..

My guys just fished the furling line stopper knot out the inspection plate near the bottom of the helix, untied it and led in a new line. 

Fishing the knot out took a few minutes but the rest went fast and the furler works easily by hand now. 
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