Net Neutrality

15 views
Skip to first unread message

Chris Campbell

unread,
Mar 5, 2015, 2:57:21 PM3/5/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
Hi, 

I'm confused by this whole "net neutrality" argument. 

Can anyone shed some light on it? 

My first take is that we don't really need gov. interference. 

Thanks, 

Todd Blatt

unread,
Mar 5, 2015, 3:12:58 PM3/5/15
to baltimore-node-discussion
Basically the ISPs like Verizon and Comcast are trying to mess with the way the internet has always worked and net neutrality makes it so they're not allowed to muck with it. 

John Oliver and Vi Hart give some pretty great explanations. 



Todd Blatt
tbl...@gmail.com
@tblatt on twitter
443-599-9196

READ CAREFULLY. By reading this email, you agree, on behalf of your
employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from
any and all NON-NEGOTIATED  agreements, licenses, terms-of-service,
shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure,
non-compete and acceptable use policies ("BOGUS AGREEMENTS") that I
have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents
and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and
privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to
release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.

--
Come to the Baltimore Node's OpenHack, every Thursday at 7pm. Details at http://baltimorenode.org/?utm_source=Disc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Open%20Hack
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "baltimore-node-discussion" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to baltimore-node-dis...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CACSzDhx2BAqE%2B%3DZiB6Cf9_JsS4w8MYbL%3D8WO0TxAMPOSwCRfGQ%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Mark Huson

unread,
Mar 5, 2015, 3:13:27 PM3/5/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
I don't have time to type up an entire defense but this graph was very telling to me. I live in the city and am essentially locked into Comcast, unless I'm ok with slow DSL.

Basically if net neutrality wasn't a law and I wanted to start a new video streaming service a large part of my startup costs would be paying off comcast, time warner, verizon, etc to give me the access to a network speed that would make my service usable.

From a consumer point of view think of how a cable company charges channel packages and imagine needing to do that to visit certain websites at a reasonable speed or to visit them at all.

If you enjoyed the way the internet has been then you are essentially pro net neutrality.

-Mark

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Chris Campbell <emailchri...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

Marty McGuire

unread,
Mar 5, 2015, 3:14:13 PM3/5/15
to Baltimore Node Discussion
Thank you, Todd. I was in the middle of writing something much longer citing a lot of other folks.

These were the ones I should have been reaching for.

Here's the link to the John Oliver piece, btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpbOEoRrHyU

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CA%2B-TbQ-WBDqX2qDy_v0KZh6N0nsz9JtBoGoKrnjJrgBXG0gYtQ%40mail.gmail.com.

Baltimore Green Currency Association

unread,
Mar 5, 2015, 3:17:30 PM3/5/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
Hey, Chris -
 
Basically, the large telecom corporations - Time Warner, Comcast, etc. - are looking to boost profits even further by charging companies for faster access to their content by home users.  This, at a time when their profit margin already exceeds 90% for internet access.  Conversely, this would also mean that home users, when attempting to access content for which the provider was not willing or able to pay whatever the telecom company wants, could see their bandwidth artificially restricted for that content.
 
The bigger picture here is that corporations are attempting in may sectors - big pharma, telecom, agricuture, fossil fuels, etc, - to transcend national laws and be as free as possible of regulation by individual nations, and hence, free from any oversight that would seek to have them operate with more consideration of people's rights - both natural and legal.  The flap over "fast track" trade authority is related, since it would give the Obama administration the right to bypass Congress and bow to the desires of these corporations.  I support Obama, but I do not support fast track, and it is becoming increasingly clear that without proper governmental oversight, corporations will continue to favor profits over any kind of fair treatment for workers, and over the common good in general.
 
Jeff
 

 
Jeff Dicken, Director
Baltimore Green Currency Association
a non-profit program of Fusion Partnerships
baltimoregreencurrency.org

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Chris Campbell <emailchri...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

Justin Sabe

unread,
Mar 5, 2015, 3:18:21 PM3/5/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
The internet is now a necessary resource, the same way water and air are. The FCC is charged with spectrum management because it is a finite resource and the related telecommunication management. 

Basically their ruling is saying that everyone has equal access to the internet without paying a premium to have some sites and services unrestricted. Or to say it another way they are preventing companies from interfering. 

Lots of good links and explanations on this thread!

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Chris Campbell <emailchri...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

Matthias Lee

unread,
Mar 5, 2015, 3:23:29 PM3/5/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
Just adding one more great video on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtt2aSV8wdw

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CACKBusKiMwHxzkG7W-_b0YZ7Cm%2BF8UOE5%3DOjV%2BEeMnO-m2kFbw%40mail.gmail.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



--
Matthias Lee
IDIES/Johns Hopkins University
Performance @ Rational/IBM

Matthia...@gmail.com
Matth...@jhu.edu
(320) 496 6293

To know recursion, you must first know recursion.

Steven Stowell

unread,
Mar 5, 2015, 4:56:29 PM3/5/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com

The discussion of the 97% profit margin in the link above is interesting. I wonder what Believe's margins are.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CABxm-3fkn3VuGYS%2BcErrSTOWQy9H6KT-ae%2B0LguU%2BmAnY8U7Vg%40mail.gmail.com.

J Denney

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 5:50:58 PM3/6/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
Adding my favorite video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAxMyTwmu_M


On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 4:56:29 PM UTC-5, Steven Stowell wrote:

The discussion of the 97% profit margin in the link above is interesting. I wonder what Believe's margins are.

On Mar 5, 2015 3:23 PM, "Matthias Lee" <matthia...@gmail.com> wrote:
Just adding one more great video on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtt2aSV8wdw
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Justin Sabe <justi...@gmail.com> wrote:
The internet is now a necessary resource, the same way water and air are. The FCC is charged with spectrum management because it is a finite resource and the related telecommunication management. 

Basically their ruling is saying that everyone has equal access to the internet without paying a premium to have some sites and services unrestricted. Or to say it another way they are preventing companies from interfering. 

Lots of good links and explanations on this thread!
On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:57 PM, Chris Campbell <emailchri...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, 

I'm confused by this whole "net neutrality" argument. 

Can anyone shed some light on it? 

My first take is that we don't really need gov. interference. 

Thanks, 

--
Come to the Baltimore Node's OpenHack, every Thursday at 7pm. Details at http://baltimorenode.org/?utm_source=Disc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Open%20Hack
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "baltimore-node-discussion" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to baltimore-node-discussion+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

--
Come to the Baltimore Node's OpenHack, every Thursday at 7pm. Details at http://baltimorenode.org/?utm_source=Disc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Open%20Hack
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "baltimore-node-discussion" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to baltimore-node-discussion+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com.



--
Matthias Lee
IDIES/Johns Hopkins University
Performance @ Rational/IBM

Matthia...@gmail.com
Matth...@jhu.edu
(320) 496 6293

To know recursion, you must first know recursion.

--
Come to the Baltimore Node's OpenHack, every Thursday at 7pm. Details at http://baltimorenode.org/?utm_source=Disc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Open%20Hack
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "baltimore-node-discussion" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to baltimore-node-discussion+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

Chris Campbell

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 6:37:18 PM3/6/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
Watched these vids. 

Still confused. 

There's something vital that's not being mentioned here. While, yes, they are bringing up the fact that these companies are monopolies... they're not, it seems to me, getting to the root of the problem. 

In the Vi Hart video, she makes the case that it's mathematically guaranteed that without government intervention, monopolies form. I'm not so sure about that... 

Actually, it's government intervention that has caused Comcast to become the behemoth it is today. 

Why is Google, as Vi mentioned, having such a hard time competing with Comcast and the other ISPs? 

Because local governments. They set those barriers to entry so unreasonably high that it's too expensive and extremely difficult. Wayyyy more than it should be. (They do it as a system of forced kickbacks. As long as the ISP gives them what they want, they'll block out competition.)  

If there was more competition, none of this would be an issue. The Vi Hart video mentions Seoul and Tokyo. There's more competition in these places, that's why the service is superior. There are lower barriers to entry. It's easier to compete.  

That's what I'm confused about. I see a lot of people mentioning the fact that these ISPs are monopolies -- and even pointing out that the FCC is corrupt... but then, turn around and say we need the FCC to "fix" this. 

We don't. Really, we need the local governments to deregulate and open up rights of way access. It would be much cheaper if the local governments weren't so tight-fisted. And we'd have like five to ten competitors, rather than two... or one.  

Sorry for the rant. 

Am I off-track here?






To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to baltimore-node-dis...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com.

Rob Miller

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 7:04:42 PM3/6/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
You're thinking of this from the wrong direction, as government regulation of ISPs which hinders the formation of new ISPs. Net Neutrality is a regulation that stops ISPs from demanding additional money from businesses and customers beyond the basic cost of service.

For example, without Net Neutrality, Comcast could decide to limit your download speeds from Netflix because they have a business interest in Hulu. Or, if you tried to start up a new company that delivered video content, to block you completely because they don't want their customers to move away from cable TV packages.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CACSzDhy70_wkiLZ6swi%2Bw%3Du4JYZYthft4a6WNksrQJ88US1A5g%40mail.gmail.com.

Marty McGuire

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 7:10:50 PM3/6/15
to Baltimore Node Discussion

My flamebait detectors are ringing...

A lot of the roadblocks for competition in ISPs are 1) huge expenditures for building new infrastructure (initial capital) but also 2) local regulations funded by the incumbent ISPs to keep out new competitors.

For example, many cities have attempted to have municipal WiFi, fiber, etc services only to be stopped when Comcast or Verizon sues the city. The FCC's recent rulings on net neutrality also, supposedly, denied states the rights to block municipal internet efforts. Should be interesting.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CAE3EG2UQ0N7EsLKckUAPOR_j%2B_TYGq7EEn3bpY1ZeEaxNijbiQ%40mail.gmail.com.

Chris Campbell

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 8:44:35 PM3/6/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
"You're thinking of this from the wrong direction, as government regulation of ISPs which hinders the formation of new ISPs. Net Neutrality is a regulation that stops ISPs from demanding additional money from businesses and customers beyond the basic cost of service."

Yeah. And that's where I'm confused about this whole debate. It all seems like a moot point. 

Net Neutrality, then, according to what you're saying, is treating a symptom... and ignoring the disease. ISPs would not be able to demand additional money, limit download speeds, or block my video content start up, if competition threatened to cut their throat if they even thought about it. 

Because I would simply take my business elsewhere. That's how it should work. 

Marty, I'm not sure if your "flamebait" comment was directed at me. It seemed like it might be, but I have my doubts. Because we're in agreement on both points you made.  

But, I'm not sure how you feel... I'm not too keen on getting the FCC involved. 

Getting the ISPs to shape up isn't a federal issue. It's something that, it seems to me, needs to be done locally. Take, for example, Kansas City and Austin. 

They let Google Fiber in despite the ISPs because they wanted competition more than they wanted selective control and kickbacks. 



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CALiWNBPFW%2BsCuJ4WXjZgBkVzwrQFGEZZhd7QOCN7kd2OPasOww%40mail.gmail.com.

Justin Sabe

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 9:42:16 PM3/6/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
Hi Chris, I can't feel like that we are just doing the research for you for another Laissez Faire article for you. http://lfb.org/net-neutrality-scam-government-control-not-solution/ (I found a violn/fiddle teacher through craigs list. I don't understand what that special snowflake was about)

I would be glad to talk to you as someone who works for a local ISP and you as a Journalist if you had asked. 

BTW, I clicked on a google add link on silverdoctor for a "Male Catheter Training Model" because the picture was so incongruous with the aim of "Financial Health" of the site. I got a laugh and you got some money out of the link, so good on you. 



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CACSzDhxtv35Fft4i0F5uc3ttnxRsrTMFPzEYZc8b9nN3LeQGUA%40mail.gmail.com.

Chris Campbell

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 9:50:20 PM3/6/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
Haha. 

Hey, Justin. Cool. I'd like to talk. 

Btw, no longer doing the Silverdocs thing. Old friends, tho. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CACKBus%2BgqDo4j7yBCFZk8SWeTA5_OEwFCqHEJvJM3tdYFH31mg%40mail.gmail.com.

Justin Sabe

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 9:57:29 PM3/6/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
Let's start over with you properly introducing yourself and your question. 


To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CACSzDhx1FQUL-cP7_v70EjQtsEX8e4npBRv%2BSA0X10aNbCrgfA%40mail.gmail.com.

Adam Bielicki

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 10:07:48 PM3/6/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
... Is this conversation really happening? I've been off the hook today and 
Adding my favorite video on it: Net Neutrality in the US: Now What?
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CACKBusJfhb1gEDSNN7UHNHHsLGF1bB49xr6ZU6B22qgn5q2Dcg%40mail.gmail.com.

Adam Bielicki

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 10:11:02 PM3/6/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
*sigh* cleaning my phone and had a premature email problem. 

Anyway I was just checking my email and I don't understand the obtuse nature of the argument. 

Chris Campbell

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 10:19:31 PM3/6/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
Well... the discussion has already begun. I wasn't really asking as Chris "on assignment." 

I'm genuinely confused by it. And I'm trying to figure out why so many people seem to think that government interference will solve it. To me, it seems like that's the last thing we need. 

If we're worried about large institutions blocking our content, just wait until the government gets a finger in the pie. 

Node seems like a smart spot. So I decided to open up the discussion and see what came of it. 

Also, while we're on the subject, I wanted to ask about mesh networking and the role it could play in creating an "alter-net." I'm fascinated by this idea. A decentralized Internet where every piece is a part of the whole. 

To cut it off, you have to kill them all. 

I know very little about it, but it seems like this could be a viable solution. And it has that community feel that you can't quite get from Comcast.

That's something I'd like to write about.  

Btw, which local ISP do you work for? Or is that a dumb question? 



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CACKBusJfhb1gEDSNN7UHNHHsLGF1bB49xr6ZU6B22qgn5q2Dcg%40mail.gmail.com.

Adam Bielicki

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 10:36:12 PM3/6/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
The FCC has finally made a move to help the consumer market against the big networks and lobbyist that work for them. This has been in the works for years now. Big business always tries to shut it down but it keeps coming back because the previous stipulations are garbage. The government isn't trying to obstruct what you are entitled too but is a huge bureaucracy. The law will never be perfect but we CAN shoot for one improvement at a time. 

If you intended to ask what ISP I work for than you have been misled. I am a very irregular contributor to this list and mostly focus on things that I find interesting. 

More than happy to talk more offline.  
Adding my favorite video on it: Net Neutrality in the US: Now What?

Chris Campbell

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 10:42:00 PM3/6/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
Cool, thanks Adam! 

The ISP employer question was for Justin. He said he works for one. 



To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CAJ2RE8s8uPSwkzAU81fgxPXtf9-oPuO99UhHW26MUAFvygwivQ%40mail.gmail.com.

Justin Sabe

unread,
Mar 6, 2015, 10:46:15 PM3/6/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
Did you as a "managing editor" really write an entire opinion piece on a subject you are genuinely confused about?

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/baltimore-node-discussion/CACSzDhxCqstKjqFz_8iByNT00zF8MRyEwrowYOWa31L953mpYA%40mail.gmail.com.

Alberto Gaitán

unread,
Mar 8, 2015, 9:50:12 AM3/8/15
to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com
I too smell flamebait but want to link to this relevant thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2uw4z7/its_net_neutrality_fun_time_we_are_public/

The FCC's recent decision does not solve all the problems related to network neutrality and wasn't meant to. What it does is give the FCC some modest teeth  to stop demonstrable violations of neutrality. (For now, as a few days ago the major ISPs' puppets in Congress have reintroduced legislation[1] to permanently emasculate the FCC in this regard).

[1] http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/03/republicans-internet-freedom-act-would-wipe-out-net-neutrality/


To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to baltimore-node-dis...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com.
--
Come to the Baltimore Node's OpenHack, every Thursday at 7pm. Details at http://baltimorenode.org/?utm_source=Disc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Open%20Hack
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "baltimore-node-discussion" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to baltimore-node-dis...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to baltimore-no...@googlegroups.com.



--
Matthias Lee
IDIES/Johns Hopkins University
Performance @ Rational/IBM

Matthia...@gmail.com
Matth...@jhu.edu
(320) 496 6293

To know recursion, you must first know recursion.
--
Come to the Baltimore Node's OpenHack, every Thursday at 7pm. Details at http://baltimorenode.org/?utm_source=Disc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Open%20Hack
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "baltimore-node-discussion" group.
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages