Assistance with finding surnames

[Dennis Munise]

Hello!  I am hoping that this is the proper group to ask this question to as I know my family's roots are in the Azores, but I cannot trace the information specifically to a location in the Azores, yet.

My biggest hurdle is surnames and from what I've read there were no hard and fast rules to surnames in the Azores.  That, coupled with my ancestor's inability to read or write, is causing me headaches just trying to research records here in the US.

The purpose of my message is to see if anyone has run into these issues or if I'm heading down a rabbit hole that may ultimately lead to a dead end.  The surname my family uses now is "Munise", however on documents that I know to be my family (based on location, date and other family members on the documents) the surnames used are:  Cordeiro, Menize, Manz, Manzs, Maniz, Munise, and Marshall.  The WWI draft card of my great grandfather lists his name as Manuel Menize Cordeiro.  His wife's name is Albina Ventura Cordeiro and she is listed on the draft card as well (and the address is where they lived in 1918).  The card is signed with "X - his mark" which means he could not read/write (and the 1920 census backs that up).

In searching for their marriage records I came across this one - the only one showing a bride named Albina Ventura in Bridgewater Massachusetts, where they lived.  Knowing that he could not read/write I have to rely on the sound of the name, which "Manis" seems to fit.  The headache lies in the place of birth being Italy.  Since identification and documentation was pretty much non-existent in 1913,  and that my g-grandfather could not read/write, my questions are:

1. What are the chances the place of birth is incorrect?
2. Is Gesuis possibly an Azorean name?  Could it be phonetic for de Jesus?
3. At the turn of the century, if someone lists their name as Manuel Menise Cordeiro, would one of the last names be more important than the other?  Or is it just a preference the individual made?

I believe I've located Albina's immigration point but I have yet to locate Manuel's (he came over ~5 years before her) and I'm trying to determine how best to search for him.  He would have come over when she was 14 so I do not believe their marriage took place in the Azores.

Thanks in advance!

[Cheri Mello]

Hi Dennis,

"Munise", Menize, Manz, Manzs, Maniz, Munise, are all corruptions of Moniz. So is "Manish." It is being spelled phonetically. Marshall is a phonetic spelling of Machado (mah-SHAH-dough) believe it or not.  Cordeiro is correct and is part of his compounded surname. More on surnames can be found on the Azores GenWeb:  http://www.worldgenweb.org/azrwgw/research-aids-m---z/naming-practices-of-the.html

Now for your questions (answered in color).

1. What are the chances the place of birth is incorrect? Every document has a chance for error. You need more documents and it will prove this one is in error for the birth place.
   
2. Is Gesuis possibly an Azorean name?  Could it be phonetic for de Jesus? I'm dying of laughter here! I've never seen them mess that one up that badly. Yes, it's phonetic for Jesus. The bride's dad, "Jason" is Jacinto.
   
3. At the turn of the century, if someone lists their name as Manuel Menise Cordeiro, would one of the last names be more important than the other?  Or is it just a preference the individual made? It's just a compounded surname. Manuel, being the #1 given name for males, and coming either from a Moniz or a Cordeiro family needed to distinguish himself from the other Manuels of the same name. So he came up with the other surname. It could be from any grandparent (the most common) or his godparents or an esteemed family friend. You'll figure out that one once you get into the records overseas.
   

You've done a bunch of research on the American end. You mentioned censuses, marriage, and WWI Draft. What else have you searched? Here's how-to with more ideas for you:

http://www.worldgenweb.org/azrwgw/research-aids-a---l/finding-your-portuguese/

It took me 4 years (in the 90s) and 25 documents to find my freguesia (village) in the Azores. It can be done much quicker now. It will take persistence.

Good luck,

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[bsei.azo...@gmail.com]

This may help.  An Albina Ventura arrived in New York on the SS Cretic on 15 Jun 1907.  According to the ship manifest she was heading to her uncle Manuel R. Cordeiro at 564 Underwood St. Fall River, MA and was 19 years old and from Arrifes.

I took a quick look at Arrifes baptisms and found her. http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-B-1880-1889/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-B-1880-1889_item1/index.html?page=853 (starts bottom left)

Baptized on 11 Nov 1898 in Arrifes: Albina, born 28 Oct 1898 to Jacinto d' Oliveira Ventura and Ana de Jesus; both native to this parish and residents of Rua Gaspar da Silva. Paternal granddaughter of Manuel d' Oliveira Ventura and Albina de Jesus;  Maternal granddaughter of Antonio de Melo and Julia de Jesus.  Godparents are Amancio d' Oliveira Ventura and Maria dos Dores, both single.

Bill Seidler

[Neil Teixeira]

You have the marriage record for Manuel Monis to Albina Venture from Bridgewater City/County in Mass.
Not a Church record.
This record states the Clergy person as George McGuire, but not whether he is a Catholic priest.

If he is a Catholic Priest connected to a local Catholic church.........then likely they got married there too.

Prior to marrying the couple, the Catholic Priest should (is required) have asked both Bride & Groom "WHERE" were you baptized at?
And recorded this important baptism data in the Churches own Marriage record book, which remains with the church.
The Priest is also "expected" to mail a letter to the Baptism church.........to confirm the bride & groom statements.

Some Priest were very strict about this template.........and some were very lax.

If your lucky, the name of the village/Church (you are looking for) is recorded in these Catholic Marriage ledgers.
So? You need the find the Church-if they were married in it. And ask for a photocopy of the ledger marriage record from 1913.

N. Teixeira

[Cheri Mello]

Bill found Albina's birth. Dennis, one of your immigrants came from the freguesia (fregh [rhymes with Greg] - Z - ah) of Arrifes on the island of Sao Miguel.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/0d162dea-d491-4667-b002-3ad17b79fa13n%40googlegroups.com.

[bsei.azo...@gmail.com]

Please pardon my typos.  The year for the birth and baptism is 1888, not 1898.

[Cheri Mello]

I did about 5 minutes on George F. Maguire who married them.

The snippet that Dennis provided does list some who were Catholic priests:

A search around those pages for George F. Maguire and how he was listed may provide a clue.

The censuses that I found on him (if I have the right guy) doesn't list him being a priest or clergyman and he eventually marries. So he may just be one of those people who was licensed to marry others.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

[Dennis Munise]

Thank you all for your responses!

St. Patrick's Church in Somerset MA shows Rev. George F. Maguire was the pastor from 1910-1915.  I'm not Catholic so I don't know if there a difference between Priest and Reverend, but assuming it's more than a coincidence I'd imagine this was where the wedding took place.

I checked the Boston Diocese records online but couldn't find anything for St. Patrick's.  Is this a record a church would generally keep?  And what would be the suggested donation to request such a record?

https://www.stpatricksomerset.org/history.htm

[Cheri Mello]

Good find! Glad it wasn't the George Maguire I found.

You need to request a copy of what is in the marriage book. If the book is too big to photocopy, then ask if they can take a picture with their cell. Otherwise, they will get out that little half sheet of paper form and fill in that Manuel married Albina by Fr. George in front of witness A and B. Then they'll stamp it and date it. You do NOT want that. You want what is in the book, no matter if it is in Latin.

I donate whatever the cost is to obtain a marriage from that state is. That's my (personal) general rule. It's completely up to you want you want to donate.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/62c094c0-19ca-4a16-a36f-f8262af7f937n%40googlegroups.com.

[Joanne Mercier]

St. Patrick’s is in the Diocese of Fall River and would have been in 1915 since that diocese was formed in 1904.  This parish is now part of a collaborative of 3 parishes so you may have to contact the main office at St. Thomas More Church in Somerset to get some assistance. 

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 24, 2022, at 10:46 PM, Cheri Mello <gfsc...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Dennis Munise]

The person in the office replied almost immediately and said she found the record right away because she just had that book out.  What luck!

She did offer to write a certificate, but I asked her for a photocopy or at least a photo so fingers crossed!

Thanks to everyone for your help!

[Joanne Mercier]

That’s great! Serendipity strikes again! As long as you don’t contact parish offices around Christmas, Holy Week and Easter most will be happy to help - as long as they can easily access what you need. Very few are genealogists and some are not familiar with our “hobby” but some of us who work for the Church are slowly changing that. Nice to hear when it works!

-- 
Joanne Mercier

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[Dennis Munise]

Replying for those who may have been following this thread, attached is the record from the church.  I notice that the name in the margin appears to be "Monis" which is more in line with the "Moniz" that I've seen on the census and elsewhere.  Nowhere is origin listed so I would assume that the Italy found on the town's records were clerical in nature.  I believe strongly, at this point, that this is the record of my great grandparents' marriage.

[Cheri Mello]

Well, that sucks that they didn't record where the place of birth was. Only the residence. But you had to look and leave no stone unturned.

You could look at "Joseph Caton." That's a Jose Caetano in Portuguese. I'd do a few census searches around where your ancestors lived, but I wouldn't spend hours on it.

To your knowledge, did Manuel file for citizenship? Do you have his death certificate and his obituaries?

Do you have the kids' baptisms? Maybe they put the place of birth on the kids' baptisms. Or even their birth certificates. You need to collect all kids and look. You don't know when they changed the format and required the parents' place of birth.

Did Albina naturalize? If so, she needed to provide information about her husband.

Did Manuel leave a will?

Did Manuel work for someone else? He may have a Social Security application. If he was mainly self-employed during the 30s, then he won't have one (self-employed people weren't entitled to Social Security until the 1950s).

You could try searching the Portuguese American Digital Newspaper Collection from UMass, Dartmouth. You need to type Moniz though.

https://www.lib.umassd.edu/paa/portuguese-american-genealogy-resources  I'd read the start guide first: https://guides.lib.umassd.edu/c.php?g=207313

I don't know which papers are in Massachusetts though. It will be hard because Manuel Moniz is a common name. Maybe there's a Portuguese obituary for him.

You could test your DNA (or your father's if he is alive...he is closer to the immigrant. If your father is dead but has living siblings, test them first). What you would get from this is a list of matches. We know Albina is from Arrifes, so you'd get a lot of matches from the western end of Sao Miguel island, which happens to be the largest island. If Manuel was from a different island, it would be easy to tell because you'd have a lot of matches researching a different island. If Manuel is from Sao Miguel, cross your fingers he's from the other side and the matches are distinct enough to tell. Since RootsTech starts on Thursday, the DNA vendors may be having show specials.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/11346597-4fa8-4f77-b1d5-7184c5872e4cn%40googlegroups.com.

[Neil Teixeira]

I think I would look for "all" Manuel Monis passport departures from Sao Miguel island from 1887 on.

Hoping to find a Manuel Monis heading to Somerset, Mass.
Taking note of any/all of his siblings. Siblings data may be the final path to the birth village.
Especially if the Cordeiro surname names pops up? Corderiros could be his relatives-not hers.

[Cheri Mello]

However, Dennis would then need to look for all Manuel Moniz departing from Terceria and then Horta as well. The passaportes from the port from Flores island does not exist. The problem with this method is that it is a needle in a haystack. He needs at least an island first.

And the immigration year *appears* to be solid...stated as 1902 on two censuses. However, we don't know who is providing that information.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/32074fb6-15d6-4055-a38f-d6955dda1f03n%40googlegroups.com.

[Dennis Munise]

Right.  A distant family member found Manuel's obituary and it says he is from Arrifes.  He died in 1939 in Bridgewater MA and the obit said he was in the country for 35 years.  Assuming there was rounding in there I think the entry date of 1902 may still be valid.  One monkey wrench in there is while he generally went by Moniz (or some variation) in the US, his other surname was Cordeiro.  His WWI draft card states "Manuel Menize Cordeiro" (lists my G-Grandmother as contact and the address is correct) and his land purchase indicates "Manuel M. Cordeiro".  It was signed by "his mark" so therein is monkey wrench #2 - he may not have been able to read or write and so we are at the mercy of whoever is taking the information in the U.S.

From the WWI draft card he indicated that April 4, 1877 was his birth date and from the marriage record I can assume that his parent's names are Manuel Moniz and Antonia de Jesus.  But given how he wrote his name on the draft card and his legal land purchases used Corderio, can we assume that his father's name was Manuel Moniz Corderio?

Thanks to everyone who has helped me here, I really appreciate it.

[Cheri Mello]

Well Dennis, you are in luck. Arrifes is indexed in each book during the 1870s.

What I would do (unless you read) is make a list of all the Manuels born from maybe 1875 to whatever 1880s date you found on the censuses. So if you are finding him born in 1877, 1878, 1882, and 1883, then your search is 1875-1885 (I'd give a couple of years on either end). Then start at 18xx and go to the 2nd to the last image in the book (circled): .....

You are looking for a baby Manuel (spelled the old way - Manoel) born to a Manuel Moniz or Cordeiro or Moniz Cordeiro or Cordeiro Moniz AND Antonia Anybody. Make a list. Put the year, page/record and how the parents were listed. Then post that list and someone will tell you how to navigate that site.

Use Tombo.pt to access the records (click the British flag if you prefer to navigate in English): https://tombo.pt/f/pdl01

https://tombo.pt/f/pdl01

It will look like this. Click the baptism book with your years. Then it will look like the image above.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/8c2fb6c7-dcd9-41a7-a6f4-5bee0e39e7a5n%40googlegroups.com.

[Joseph Mendonca]

As recommended by Cheri Mello, I found his obituary in the Portuguese American Digital Newspaper Collection from UMass, Dartmouth .  It was listed in the newspaper "Diario de Noticias" dated 24 November 1939, upper left corner.  I boxed it in red outline.  Because his name was so common I searched for his wife Albina and got lucky.

It states that he is a native of Arrifes.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/CAKUUw_FLL-11R9U3BDnm0X8Bu17CJTYj7dsvKhZT1CH8YWj35Q%40mail.gmail.com.

--

Joseph Mendonca

[Joseph Mendonca]

You may already have this, but just in case, here is the family listed in the 1930 US Census residing at 579 Oak St.

Line 90

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RHF-F67?i=25&cc=1810731&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AXQ5X-95J

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Joseph Mendonca

[Dennis Munise]

Thank you Cheri for the detailed instructions.  Very helpful!  I did start to look through those pages while I was taking a lunch and I'm wondering if the text could be any lighter!  My eyes were hurting after that!

I plan on taking your advice and going through the books sometime this weekend.

Joseph, thank you for that information!  I do have him in the 20 & 30 census but the 1910 census still eludes me.  I've searched every spelling of maunel, moniz and cordeiro I could think of.  The census taker either really butchered the name or he just wasn't counted.  I also can't find her in the 1910 census either.  I just don't know how often people moved around - per the wedding records he was in Bridgewater and she was in Somerset in 1913, but who knows if/when they moved.  He was renting up until 1923 so no property records to go on.

Thanks again everyone!

[Cheri Mello]

Dennis,

If you are using Ancestry, do wildcard searches to catch all spellings.

For Moniz, etc: ....

For Cordeiro:

And yes, they may have missed him if he was working and no one in the house bothered to mention that to the census taker. It happens. My immigrants came in 1901 and 1903 and I do not find them until the 1930 census, even through I have their address via a city directory. They weren't home and the landlord didn't bother to mention them.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/8d8275f4-69c0-410d-a8c0-07ced2036e36n%40googlegroups.com.

[Cheri Mello]

Dennis,

File this one under "Hmmmm" in case you can't find your Manuel.

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-B-1870-1879/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-B-1870-1879_item1/index.html?page=451

#176 on the left (image 75)

Manuel, baptized 1 Nov 1875, born 26 Oct 1875 at 4 pm, son natural (meaning parents not married) of pai incognito (father unknown) and of Antonia de Jesus, single. Maternal grandson of Manuel Cordeiro and Francisca de Jesus. Godparents: Manuel Cordeiro, married, and his wife, Angelica de Jesus.

I'm NOT saying this is your guy. You have April 4, 1877 and this guy is Oct. 26, 1875. If he was born in April, I would really say "hmmm." I just found it interesting that there's a mom named Antonia de Jesus and lots of Cordeiro names in that record. No Moniz' though.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

[JR]

Here is the marriage on Albina's side:

 Ancestors of Albina Ventura

 

 

Generation No. 1

 

        1.  Albina Ventura, born 28 Oct 1898 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.  She was the daughter of 2. Jacinto de Oliveira Ventura and 3. Ana de Jesus.  She married (1) Manuel Moniz Cordeiro 15 Nov 1913 in St Patrick church, Fall River, Mass., USA.  He was born Abt. 1887 in NS da Saude, Arrifes, and died in Nov 23 1939.  He was the son of Manuel Moniz and Antonia de Jesus.

 

Generation No. 2

 

        2.  Jacinto de Oliveira Ventura, born Abt. 1859 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.  He was the son of 4. Manuel de Oliveira Ventura and 5. Albina de Jesus or Coracao de Jesus.  He married 3. Ana de Jesus 11 Jan 1882 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

        3.  Ana de Jesus, born Abt. 1861 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.  She was the daughter of 6. Antonio de Melo and 7. Julia de Jesus or Julia Ricarda.

       notes:

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1880-1883/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1880-1883_item1/index.html?page=76

Record 2, marriage no-2, 1882, 11- Jan-1882, NS da Saude, Arrifes casamentos

Child of Jacinto Oliveira Ventura and Ana is:

        1                 i.    Albina Ventura, born 28 Oct 1898 in NS da Saude, Arrifes; married Manuel Moniz Cordeiro 15 Nov 1913 in St Patrick church, Fall River, Mass., USA.

 

 

Generation No. 3

 

        4.  Manuel de Oliveira Ventura, born Abt. 1829 in Sao Jose de Ponta Delgada.  He was the son of 8. Manuel de Oliveira and 9. Maria da Luz.  He married 5. Albina de Jesus or Coracao de Jesus 23 Oct 1853 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

        5.  Albina de Jesus or Coracao de Jesus, born Abt. 1830 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.  She was the daughter of 10. Manuel Machado and 11. Ana Miquelina do Amor Divino.

       Notes:

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853_item1/index.html?page=196

page 195, 23-Oct-1853, casamentos de NS da Saude, Arrifes

Children of Manuel Oliveira Ventura and Albina are:

                           

        2                 i.    Jacinto de Oliveira Ventura, born Abt. 1859 in NS da Saude, Arrifes; married Ana de Jesus 11 Jan 1882 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

                           

        6.  Antonio de Melo, born in Sao Jose de Ponta Delgada.  He married 7. Julia de Jesus or Julia Ricarda.

        7.  Julia de Jesus or Julia Ricarda, born in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

       

Child of Antonio Melo and Julia is:

        3                 i.    Ana de Jesus, born Abt. 1861 in NS da Saude, Arrifes; married Jacinto de Oliveira Ventura 11 Jan 1882 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

 

 

Generation No. 4

 

        8.  Manuel de Oliveira, born in Sao Jose de Ponta Delgada.  He married 9. Maria da Luz.

        9.  Maria da Luz, born in Sao Jose de Ponta Delgada; died Bef. 23 Oct 1853.

       

Children of Manuel Oliveira and Maria are:

        4                 i.    Manuel de Oliveira Ventura, born Abt. 1829 in Sao Jose de Ponta Delgada; married Albina de Jesus or Coracao de Jesus 23 Oct 1853 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

                         ii.    Jose de Oliveira Ventura, born in Sao Jose de Ponta Delgada; married Maria de Jesus; born in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

 

 

        10.  Manuel Machado, born in NS da Saude, Arrifes.  He married 11. Ana Miquelina do Amor Divino.

        11.  Ana Miquelina do Amor Divino, born in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

       

Children of Manuel Machado and Ana are:

        5                 i.    Albina de Jesus or Coracao de Jesus, born Abt. 1830 in NS da Saude, Arrifes; married Manuel de Oliveira Ventura 23 Oct 1853 in NS da Saude, Arrifes.

       

 

[JR]

Marriage of #6 & #7 of previous post.

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853_item1/index.html?page=176

page 175, Arrifes casamentos, May 23- 1852
He is 24 yrs old, she is 21 yrs old
Antonio de Mello filho de Manoel de Mello and Roza Leonor do Coracao de Jesus com Julia Ricarda, filha de Jacintho Pedro and Helena Candida, ambos baptizados na Parochial de Sao Joze de Ponta Delgada

JR

[Dennis Munise]

Thank you so much for the wealth of information!  I apologize I could not respond earlier to thank you!  I was traveling this weekend and for some reason I was only able to view but not respond within the group.

Again, thank you I truly appreciate it!

[JR]

It seems I was too quick and reproduced the error that Bill warned against. Albina was born in 1888, not 1898.

JR

On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 9:05:37 PM UTC-5 JR wrote:

[Dennis Munise]

Thank you for the follow-up.  I did catch that and the 1888 number matches the social security records per ancestry.

Thank you again for your detailed response!

[Dennis Munise]

I was reviewing the birth records and pretty much striking out.  My feeling at this point is that there is one (or more) pieces of important information that is flat out incorrect.  Whether it's parish, birth year, immigration date, etc.

To recap so that you don't have to read through the entire thread, my great-grandfather went by the name Manuel Moniz Cordeiro and used both last names interchangeably.  He purchased land under Cordeiro but as you can see by my last name Moniz was the preferred name.

Marriage records list parents as Manuel Moniz and Antonia de Jesus

Death certificate lists parents as Manuel Munise and Antonia Cordeiro (but I assume this information is secondhand provided by my great-grandmother)

Immigration date on 2 censuses show 1902

Calculated birth date based on census is 1878, death certificate puts it at 1879 (but again secondhand information, I imagine)

Obituary indicates he is from Arrifes

So I figured I'd start with the passport files for Nov 1901 through 1902 and stumbled across this entry #198-443.  It lists the name as Manuel Moniz, and I believe the parents are natural & Antonia Moniz.  Based on the age I looked at the 1876 & 1877 baptisms but could not find Antonia Moniz in there.  I'm not sure what's being reported under Occupation, either.  http://www.culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/PASSAPORTES-PDL-1900-1902/PASSAPORTES-PDL-1900-1902_item1/index.html?page=96

So I guess my questions are - I know birthdays weren't set in stone as they are today but is it realistic that it could be off 2 years from other information?  And any suggestions on how to trace this link so I can either keep it in the "possible" file or discard it altogether?

Thanks!

[bsei.azo...@gmail.com]

That passaporte entry could be same person as the baptism Cheri posted earlier (filed under Hmmm); but it did not mention the name Moniz.  IF they are the same person, passaporte record shows him using the name Moniz and the baptism record shows that his grandfather's name is Cordeiro.  Perhaps the parents married some time after he was born?

Bill Seidler

[Dennis Munise]

That is an excellent point.  So I'm looking for a marriage sometime after 1875 but before 1902 (probably closer to 1875) between an Antonia de Jesus and a someone (probably Manoel) Moniz.

[JR]

I just reread Cheri's and Bill's posts, so I deleted my initial post. Looks like a match to me. It is not uncommon to get the wrong birth date on documents.

JR

[Cheri Mello]

Hi Dennis,

The occupation of "pastor" is a shepherd.

Yes something is going on with the double surname of Moniz and Cordeiro.

You said the marriage records list parents as Manuel Moniz and Antonia de Jesus. Yes, at the time of marriage, your guy is still going by the Portuguese custom and listing his mom with only her religious middle name and not her family's surname of Cordeiro.

Then you said the death certificate lists parents as Manuel Munise and Antonia Cordeiro. Yes, the information is secondary, most likely provided by the spouse of the deceased. By this time though, everybody knows to use the family surname of Cordeiro, hence hers appears as Antonia Cordeiro.

With the immigration date on 2 censuses showing 1902, I'd give it +/- of 2 years. You'd have to search 1900-1904. But something tells me that the entry may be your guy, hence the confusion on the American end. Keep it and file it with "Hmmm" until you do an exhaustive search.

You said:

Calculated birth date based on census is 1878, death certificate puts it at 1879 (but again secondhand information, I imagine).

Me: Yes, but it's pretty close.

You said:

Obituary indicates he is from Arrifes.

Me: Yes. As J.R. pointed out (and my cousin, Dave Furtado does a lot of research in Arrifes), yeah, they may be from Relva or the Sao Jose church in Ponta Delgada. However, the passaporte entry agrees with Arrifes.

You said:

So I guess my questions are - I know birthdays weren't set in stone as they are today but is it realistic that it could be off 2 years from other information?  And any suggestions on how to trace this link so I can either keep it in the "possible" file or discard it altogether?

Me:

One of my ancestors was exactly correct on her birthday, all the time. The other was all over the place. The only thing consistent was the month of April. You aren't ready to discard anything yet. On that birth that appears to match the 1902 emigration entry...you could look to see where that Antonia's parents had on their surnames. Find her parents' marriage and see if one of them has a Moniz in their family. That would be compelling evidence. On the other hand, just because it isn't there, doesn't mean anything either. Maybe there was an esteemed family friend with the surname of Moniz or the Moniz family in that area was highly regarded and that surname was chosen for that reason.

This is the hard part of the research...trying to find the correct Manuel. You are closing in though, I feel. Once we know for certain that it is your Manuel, you will be over the hump and the tracing with Portuguese records become easier. All you have to do is learn to pick out Portuguese words. I have tips for that as do most people on this list.

[Dennis Munise]

I apologize for the multiple questions but it seems that every answer brings two more questions :)

I realize we're still assuming here, but assuming the person from Cheri's record is him, the fact that in 1902 the parents are listed as "natural" and Antonia de Jesus would signify that he does not know who his father is, correct?

So it's possible that she married a Moniz and he looked up to Moniz and honored him by taking his name but it would most likely not be his father. 

Or were the passport officials not that rigid in 1902? 

On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 2:31:19 PM UTC-5 bsei.azo...@gmail.com wrote:

[Cheri Mello]

Dennis,

Yes, a "natural" child means illegitimate, so born out of wedlock. He does not know who is father is (or was never told).

Sure, Antonia could have married a Moniz later. That is one possibility among a few others.

He had to have his baptism to leave in 1902. So the date on that Passaporte in 1902 is the "natural" child of Antonia that I found earlier. We don't know if it's YOUR ancestor though.

I'm skipping here (bad genealogy) however, I found a marriage in the Arrifes 1841-1853 book for a Manuel Moniz, son of Joao Moniz (dec') and Rosa de Jesus marrying Francisca de Amor Divino, daughter of Manuel Rapoza ____ and Perpetua de Jesus. The bride and groom were baptized in Relva. The marriage date is 1 Oct 1849, page 134 right. No Cordeiros mentioned, but file it under Hmmm until more of the names of Antonia's parents are correct:

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853_item1/index.html?page=135

Pastor - Shepherd - sheep - lambs...you know the literal translation of Cordeiro? It's lamb. Again, file that under Hmmm.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/7ae2def3-ca2f-434a-a3a0-1c32a9d62bdbn%40googlegroups.com.

[Cheri Mello]

OK, ignore the previous marriage. This one is better.

Page 128 right.

Manuel Cordeiro, he's 25 or 26, son of another of the same name (meaning Manuel Cordeiro) and Francisca de Jesus with bride Dorothea Jacinta Rosa, age 17, daughter of pais incognitos (so both parents unknown) and raised by Angelica Rosa. Bride and groom were baptized in the parish of Sao Jose of Ponta Delgada. Marriage date: 25 April 1849

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1841-1853_item1/index.html?page=129

OK, so this Manuel is Antonia's brother. Now is this Antonia your Antonia? Don't know yet. So file this one under Hmmm.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

[Cheri Mello]

Dennis said:

So I'm looking for a marriage sometime after 1875 but before 1902 (probably closer to 1875) between an Antonia de Jesus and a someone (probably Manoel) Moniz.

Me: You are looking for a marriage that may or may not exist. And that's a 27 year search. Put that one under "Last Resort Efforts." Antonia may or may not have married a Moniz. You gotta take of the American thinking cap of that surname could be a stepdad. It could be anyone's name. Sure, it could be a stepdad, but not necessarily.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/c3da9498-3cee-4c18-b375-6236df3b2732n%40googlegroups.com.

[Cheri Mello]

OK, I found this, #38 on the left

Marriage 29 Sep 1873

Manuel Moniz Cordeiro, 43, widower of Francisca de Jesus who is buried in the public cemetery of Arrifes, worker, son legitimate of Joao Moniz, dec'd, and Rosa Jacinta.

Maria da Estrella, 26, single, domestic, daughter of Jose Francisco de Mattos and Antonia de Jesus and they are from Furnas (that's the east side of the island about 30 or so miles away).

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1870-1879/SMG-PD-ARRIFES-C-1870-1879_item1/index.html?page=143

Again, keep until until more stuff comes to light.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada