Portuguese names.

[Rob Whaite]

Hi Cheri

I attach a couple of Australian marriage certificates.

It is interesting that two of them are for Portuguese people in the State of Victoria in 1866 .Thomas(Tomasz) and De Quite(Do Couto) and in the same place(suspicious)?

Both their mothers have the same maiden name Osiama or similar so maybe the two individuals getting married are cousins?

In any case have you, or anybody else for that matter ever heard of this surname?

Be very interested to know.

Best Regards

Rob

[Cheri Mello]

Hi Rob,

I didn't sleep well last night, so I'm not thinking well this morning.

I see 2 pages but it looks like 3 certificates. The columns for the marriage spans 2 pages. But it's 3 marriages, not 2 like you said. So I'm confused (or lack of sleep).

Records 16 and 17 show 2 men who are of Portuguese descent. The records are from 1866. At that time period, women didn't have surnames. The mothers of the groom have a butchered 2nd given name. It may be Rosa (the leading R in Portuguese words is pronounced as an "h" so Rosa sounds like ho-sah). But there's extra stuff there. Hosana (or Rosana) is not a Portuguese name. I can't think of what it could be at the moment. Maybe someone else can come up with something.

"SZ" is not a letter combination in Portuguese. So he's Tomas (in today's modern Portuguese). You will find all kinds of variations and butcherizations in your search.

I don't know what you mean by the same place would be suspicious. You provided the marriage register for the District of Gulong (?) in the Colony of Victoria, so people being from Gulong or Victoria getting married in Gulong or Victoria would be expected.

Hope someone can come up with the 2nd name for the moms.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[JesseAndDeborah Mendonca]

Hi Rob,

I see that the first two marriages on the page are what you are referring to.   The dates are a day apart, so I suspect after marrying in the church, they went together to record the marriages officially.  Yes, I believe the grooms were likely cousins.  Both mothers are reported to use Osiana... their first names are Mary and Claudina.   One spelling looked like Asiana.    I also didn’t find a Portuguese surname that was similar.   

Does anyone have name ideas?   I suspect the grooms are doing the best they can.  Both used a mark to sign.  

If you know the place the came from... Azores? ...look for birth records.  

Debbie

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 8:03 AM Rob Whaite <rwha...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Cheri Mello]

Ascenção? Inacia/Ignacia? Luciana? (And they misunderstood the L?) Joana? Lauriana? Mariana? Sebastiana? Some of those aren't likely, but have an "ana" sound on the end. Maybe it will give someone an idea.

I'm going to disagree with Debbie here. There's nothing in the document to indicate cousinship between the grooms. Maybe they are and maybe they aren't. To avoid tunnel vision, I'd treat them as 2 distinct, unrelated men.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[JesseAndDeborah Mendonca]

Good point, Cheri.  I also started looking at name ideas.   Thinking also the da prefix.  da Silva, etc.  did the ever use do?   That would give an o sound. do Sienna.   Rob, you have your work cut out for you.   

Debbie

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[JesseAndDeborah Mendonca]

I liked this list of surnames.  

http://www.fernandocandido.com/portgen/portuguese-names/letter-s.html

[Cheri Mello]

de = of

o (masculine) = the

a (feminine) = the

"of the" is a contraction in Portuguese.

da = of the (feminine)

do = of the (masculine)

But if using a contraction of da or do and the next word is a vowel, the "a" or "o" was dropped and it was written as d'. d'Avila is an example.

These were supposed to be the grammar rules there. And as we know, not everyone writes proper grammar. And these are documents from immigrants to Australia and I don't speak with an Australian accent, so I'm not sure what their ears are hearing. I can figure out New England (Parhk the cahr), New York (Quwahfee, fowark), and some others, but I don't have experience with Australia.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[Nancy Couto]

Note that Marianno Borges was a witness for both weddings. That, along with the fact that Osiana (or Asiana) appears to be an uncommon name, suggests that the two grooms might be related. At any rate, it’s a good guess. 

I searched for information on the Osiana or Asiana surname and learned that the name is popular in the Philippines but is also known in Mexico and Uraguay and I’m sure other places as well. 

Rob, I’m a Couto and I have a very distant Ancestry DNA match with someone named Whaite—not you, though, and I think my match is from California. I’m interested in how your search plays out. Good luck!

Nancy

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[Rob Whaite]

Hi Cheri

I am sorry to confuse you.You did not have to answer me straight away,it's not as if I am paying you for advice but thank you anyway!

Hope your day has turned out OK .

Most registrars in the early days of Australia were English and therefore listened with English ears.

I had one ancestor who was Cornish and the marriage registrar thought she said Hawking for a surname, and she was illiterate so she could not correct him.

It turned out to be Hocking.

I am sure that if you could hear me speak you would think I was speaking with an English accent.

So all these variables can cause a lot of confusion.

Thank you everyone most sincerely for your comments I shall take them onboard.

Kindest Regards

Rob

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[Rob Whaite]

Thanks Nancy I shall be in touch

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[Rob Whaite]

Hi

I also discovered that the witness Elizabeth,(Ink is a bit blotchy) of the first marriage is the bride of the second.

Bit hard to read but definitely the same signature.

So,there is a definite relationship here, or very good friends,one or the other.

Rob

[Cheri Mello]

HI Rob,

Yes, I know Australia's language is English. It's the your accent that I don't have much familiarity with. I have enough experience with the Portuguese accent to figure it out, especially in various regions of America (because I live in America). But the Portuguese accent with yours is what I am unsure of. Osiama or whatever is not a Portuguese name. The name is corrupted. It may be Ignacia or one of the other names. Either way, I think it's just a 2nd name and not a surname so they may not be related. They could be, but I would research as if they are not.

Good luck!

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[Margaret Vicente]

Hello Rob,

I have sent you some information privately and I can now confirm that I have your information and that Anthony Thomas is first cousins of Joao do Couto.  Their mothers are sisters whose 2^nd names is Eugenia.  Maria Eugenia and Claudina Eugenia. 

Margaret Vicente

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[Cheri Mello]

Orsiana (sp?) is Eugenia? OK, I really don't understand Australian accents. So was it something you had in your database? How did you figure it out? Many on this list want to learn how to do it themselves.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[JesseAndDeborah Mendonca]

Margaret, we all need a lesson from you!  Cheri is right, Eugenia???   As I said it over and over, I finally got to where I could sort of hear the possibility.   

Debbie

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[Margaret Vicente]

It is written Osiana.  How do I see Eugenia?  How do you pronounce the word “ASIA” If you sound it off correctly it sounds like the letter “ J ” not the S sound.  Now take this and pronounce Ojina, what do you get?

Cheri, I didn’t do anything different than anyone else researching for information.  And, no I didn’t have the couple in my database.  I also knew it was like trying to find a needle in a hay stack.  I suppose I was lucky to have found that needle.  I should say Rob is the lucky one.  I found the couple within a day or two of Rob’s first email but his estimated dates were not matching my findings, neither was his story, so I dismissed it and kept an eye out for other same name couples during my other research.  I also continued work on this particular couple gathering as much info as I could about parents, grandparents, children etc. and saw that there were too many coincidences matching up to his story but the timing was still off.  Now that Rob provided a solid piece of evidence plus another solidifying piece of his cousin’s marriage certificate,  I knew the research paid off and that it could be passed on to Rob. 

Margaret V. 

PS: one important part of the research was the couples children’s godparents who led me to connecting the dots in between the two Australian marriages.

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[Rob Whaite]

Thank you Margaret. I have had a lot of experience with genealogy but with Portuguese Family History I am a complete amateur,

Thank you so much.

Rob Whaite

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[Margaret Vicente]

You are welcome, Rob!

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Margaret M Vicente

[Cheri Mello]

Hi Margaret,

Thanks for the explanation. I don't think I've ever heard Eugenia pronounced in Portuguese. As for the word Asia, the "correct" pronunciation is going to depend on where one lives and the regional accent there. And the "J" sound varies here...it's all over the place. Now through in Australia into the mix and that adds a degree of difficulty. Glad you figured out though. Many times, I close my eyes and try different sounds in pronouncing the word. The closest I could come up with was Ignacia which was not the correct answer.

And a definite lucky break in finding that needle in the haystack! Lucky Rob!

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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