Marriage Record Help

[Natasha Costa]

Hello, I'm struggling with a marriage record for my third great grandfather. I can understand the whole document but am struggling with where he was from. 
From what I understand, he was from Sao Jorge (Sao Thiago, Riberia Seca, Calheta) but when I did the math and went searching for his baptismal document, I haven't been able to find him so I was concerned that maybe I was incorrect. I'm not as familiar with the churches on the other islands and was hoping someone may understand this document differently.

This is the marriage record and the one for my family is number 4, Joao Joaquim and Maria Jose
Centro de Conhecimento dos Açores - Registos Paroquiais

Thanks,
Natasha

[David Furtado]

Hi Natasha,

the record indicates he was 25 yrs old from Sao Thiago, Riberia Seca, Calheta

And that is father is unknown 

I would check a few years in either direction, say 1855 - 1864, more or less

hope this helps

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[Cheri Mello]

Yes, the marriage is in June, so maybe he already turned 25 or maybe he's going to turn 26 later in the year. I'd search 1858 and 1859 first. Make sure your eyes don't get glazed over and you misread a Jose for a Joao/Joam.

If the Sao Tiago church does NOT have a separate exposto book, then he should be mixed in with the regular baptisms as son of pai incognito and Maria Joaquim. If you search 1858-1859 and don't find him, then search 1857 and 1860. If that doesn't turn him up, check Santa Catarina in Calheta (the Matriz). Sometimes you can find out of wedlock babies in the Matriz. In my experience this would be for babies who are expostos and have no parents. Your guy has a mother, so I'd say he's in R. Seca in the regular baptism book and you missed him.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/CAEHWRf174D4V3YoRtjHBPgROCYHaX4GWDfGM-hd9UUoDnns7qw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Natasha Costa]

Thank you both for the help. I am just a bit confused, as I can't seem to find the São Tiago church or the Santa Catarina Chruch either, is it on a different website perhaps? I did however, check in R. Seca and didnt seem to find him. Another issues I am having is how do i confirm that i have found the correct person if I dont know who his maternal grandparents are. 

Thanks, 

Natasha

[Cheri Mello]

The church in Ribeira Seca is Sao Tiago. So search Ribeira Seca.  The church in Calheta is Santa Catarina. So search Calheta.  The vast majority of genealogists refer to the freguesia they are researching and not by church name. The only exception are when there are 2 churches in that freguesia.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/e9edb216-9667-4adf-97f2-52aecd381c9cn%40googlegroups.com.

[Natasha Costa]

Thank you for the information. I have looked in those and still can't seem to find him. I have even checked the index on the Sao Jorge website and cannot see him there either. Would you happen to have any suggestions on where to go from here next? Every Joao I found has a father, so I am not sure what to do now.

Thanks, 

Natasha

[Cheri Mello]

Here is a Jose born to the mom, Maria Joaquim. But if he married in 1884, he'd be 27, not 25. Top left.

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-B-1854-1860/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-B-1854-1860_item1/index.html?page=52

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/3f43419d-7a12-4163-a905-cfa704a2770bn%40googlegroups.com.

[Natasha Costa]

So, how would I go about confirming if this is the correct person? Sorry for all the questions, I'm still a bit new at this. It's also the first time that this situation has happened in my research. From what I can tell, Maria Joaquina never married the father of her son, Joao, so I don't really know how to follow the records since I would usually use the marriage record to find the birth, to marriage again and so on. 

Thanks,

Natasha

[Cheri Mello]

It's the right family.

Ribeira Seca had about 3200 people in the 1860s. Today, it has only about 900. I think that the Maria Joaquina (sorry, I mistyped her name in my last email) who is having babies out of wedlock is yours. Back then, probably 3000 people knew who the father was.

The priest should have made a margin note if Jose was Joam. So the question is, are they the same person, or did Maria Joaquina have a couple of babies out of wedlock? The only way to answer this is to do an exhaustive and tedious search. See how many Maria Joaquinas are having babies out of wedlock in that time period and does that Maria Joaquina have the same parents as the record that I found.

But before I do that, I'd go to the baptism book and start with baptisms as close to 23 Jun 1884 as I could get and work my way back in time. The marriage record only said Joao was baptized in R. Seca. It doesn't say when. Maybe his mother couldn't get him to the church for baptism right after birth due to weather, quarantines, or some other reason. Maybe she meant to go back and have him baptized but forgot. So when he went to apply for marriage at the church, they discovered he wasn't baptized (or the record was missing) so they baptized him shortly before his marriage. I have seen that happen.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/09879ee2-5845-44d6-8e1e-cc46ed25712en%40googlegroups.com.

[Bill Seidler]

On the São Jorge Genealogy website there is a searchable database of baptisms for São Jorge (Calheta Council)  that was built by one of the contributors (Shout out to Susan!)  

If you put in filters for Parish: Ribeira Seca; Name: João; Mother: Maria Joaquina; and Father: Incognito; only two baptism remain.  It is may be one of these but the age of 25 on the marriage does not match either.

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-B-1842-1854/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-B-1842-1854_item1/index.html?page=129 (Center left; born 4 Feb 1850 so 34 at time of marriage)

https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-B-1860-1865/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-B-1860-1865_item1/index.html?page=124 (Starts bottom right; born 10 Jan 1864 so 20 at time of marriage)

It could be either or neither of these.  All you can do is compare facts you are able to get to rule records in or out.  In cases of foundlings or unwed mothers you may not get the facts that give certainty.  Sometimes, you can can luck and a later record for an emigrant has a matching birthdate--but that is rare.

Bill Seidler

[Cheri Mello]

Bill,

How about asking the database for Parish: Ribeira Seca; Name: (leave blank); Mother: Maria Joaquina; and Father: Incognito. To see how many Maria Joaquinas are having babies.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/d8c4e388-0e56-4115-9e55-b5d72cf84129n%40googlegroups.com.

[Bill Seidler]

Between those years of 1850 -1864, there is only one more.  It is José born 20 Feb 1857 https://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-B-1854-1860/SJR-CH-RIBEIRASECA-B-1854-1860_item1/index.html?page=52.  The maternal grandparents are the same as João born 1864 so their mothers are the same.  The one born in 1850 is from a different Maria Joaquina.

I also tried with the name João but the mother's name just "Maria" during the same years.  There were some others but none that match the marriage record any better.

Bill

[Bill Seidler]

My shout out to the creator of the database on SJGS should have read "Suzanne" instead of Susan.  That was a lot of work and it is very valuable.

[Natasha Costa]

Hi Bill, thank you for sharing those. I took Cheri's suggestion and put in a search, and it seems there were about 10 different women with the name Maria Joaquina having children, and only two Joao's from what we can tell, neither of which match the age for my Joao. This just seems to be getting harder and harder. Thank you all for your help with this!

Thanks, 

Natasha

[Cheri Mello]

Hmm, I think it may be the 1857 "Jose" guy. The only way to find out for sure is to search for marriage of Jose who is the son of Pai Incognito and Maria Joaquina. If both Joao and Jose married, then it's more evidence to use to make a better decision.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/azores/979f4f7d-ea2d-446f-bf40-f16a4b0d5f29n%40googlegroups.com.

[Natasha Costa]

Sorry, I am just confused because in his children's documents, he is referred to as Joao Joaquim De Sousa, so why should we assume his name was Jose when there is more than one record that says it was Joao? Also, I forgot to mention the marriage happened in Terceira, but he was born in São Jorge. 

Thanks,

Natasha