2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
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Trance Gemini
Rappo "10^-35 seconds " is pretty early all right. But why is there time? Time didn't have to happen. Did it?
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Rupert are you speaking as a mathematician, physicist, or theologian?
According to Ian "did time have to happen" is a "muddled theology question" while according to you, Rupert, our resident mathematician "these are precisely the questions physicists and cosmologists are investigating".Rupert are you speaking as a mathematician, physicist, or theologian?
They find it interesting precisely because of its perceived relevance to first cause.
Sort to crash the party, Ian, by "muddying the discovery with theology" but what is all the excitement about 10^-35 secondth time period if not that it is believed to light on the question of the origin of life, the universe, and everything?They find it interesting precisely because of its perceived relevance to first cause.
That make two of us, Rupert, who are not experts in quantum gravity. Yet to the question "why does time happen" you recommend the expertise of a physicist. What leads you to conclude the question is in principle within his theoretical competence? The testimony of the physicist himself?
That make two of us, Rupert, who are not experts in quantum gravity. Yet to the question "why does time happen" you recommend the expertise of a physicist. What leads you to conclude the question is in principle within his theoretical competence? The testimony of the physicist himself?
| 2:06 PM (14 hours ago) | |||
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Why people have to try to muddy the advance of discovery by arguing theology I can't imagine.
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 10:37 PM, Rupert <rupertm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, March 19, 2014 11:35:32 PM UTC+1, Alan Wostenberg wrote:Rappo "10^-35 seconds " is pretty early all right. But why is there time? Time didn't have to happen. Did it?
These are precisely the kinds of questions that physicists and cosmologists are investigating.
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Ian
It was in this response to Steve. It seems I replied to the wrong post in error so you couldn't see what I was referring to:
Salvatore Rappoccio
2:06 PM (14 hours ago)
to Atheism
On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 2:30 AM, Rupert <rupertm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Thursday, March 20, 2014 3:52:45 AM UTC+1, Alan Wostenberg wrote:Sort to crash the party, Ian, by "muddying the discovery with theology" but what is all the excitement about 10^-35 secondth time period if not that it is believed to light on the question of the origin of life, the universe, and everything?They find it interesting precisely because of its perceived relevance to first cause.
The reason for the excitement is that the early conditions of the universe were very different to what they are now, and understanding what was happening this early in the history of the universe gives us an insight into the basic laws of nature.
It's not really anything to do with "first cause" as such. I have been told by Trance that Salvatore has told her that it could possibly have a bearing on multiverse theory.
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Hi Trance;
I can only imagine what we will eventually learn. This latest observation gives us a glimpse of the cosmos at around -10E36 seconds into the Big Bang which puts us at the threshold of the Grand Unification Epoch and the Electroweak/Inflationary Epoch. So we're in the general neighborhood of where the four fundamental forces are decoupling - one step closer to the elusive Grand Unification Theory. I love this stuff - if I were better in higher mathematics I'd have studied astrophysics as well as geology!
They tend to get full of themselves.
For instance, the predicted temperature/frequency of the Microwave Background Radiation was off by more than a factor of two. It's black body radiation, anything has a radiation curve like that, including you and me, the only difference is the temperature/frequency shift.
So they seem to have found some patterns of polarized light, if they didn't predict it more clearly than the MBR, I'm not impressed.
On Monday, March 17, 2014 1:27:21 PM UTC-4, Rupert wrote:This is indeed very exciting news, and it's amazing to think that our understanding of the early history of the universe is improving all the time. I can only wish that I had the time to understand cosmological models better.
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Rappo "10^-35 seconds " is pretty early all right. But why is there time? Time didn't have to happen. Did it?
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On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Steve in Virginia <resur...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Trance;
I can only imagine what we will eventually learn. This latest observation gives us a glimpse of the cosmos at around -10E36 seconds into the Big Bang which puts us at the threshold of the Grand Unification Epoch and the Electroweak/Inflationary Epoch. So we're in the general neighborhood of where the four fundamental forces are decoupling - one step closer to the elusive Grand Unification Theory. I love this stuff - if I were better in higher mathematics I'd have studied astrophysics as well as geology!
Cool and fascinating. So the connection here with the Multiverse or String theory is that it has the potential to lead us to the Theory of Everything.Thx. That was exactly the gap in my knowledge that I needed filled to understand this connection.
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Hi, Lawrey,Glad to be of service! This is a really momentous discovery, it's the earliest phenomenon ever observed, so it's a really big deal. It can get us observational evidence up to around 10^-35 seconds after the cosmic inflationary event. Really cool stuff!
On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 8:17 AM, lawrey <lawre...@btinternet.com> wrote:
Rap',
We can plot the distance of a moving body from the origin with time along the X axis and distance on the Y as freshman physics students are taught. But look at the chart. Do you see change? no! Time is "all there" like space. We have left behind an essential aspect of time for the sake of our models.
Trance, if a child were to ask "why is the sky blue" she would not be told "science doesn't ask why". It is in that sense I ask: why is there time?
Trance, if a child were to ask "why is the sky blue" she would not be told "science doesn't ask why". It is in that sense I ask: why is there time?
Trance You say they would explain " the natural processes work to make the sky appear to be blue". But any process presumes time. But how is it there is time at all? How come time?
Trance You say they would explain " the natural processes work to make the sky appear to be blue". But any process presumes time. But how is it there is time at all? How come time?
Tim,
you are virtually saying are you not, that time began when our perception of it became clear and in order for that we had to live and in order for that if we believe in the BB theory.
then that is and must be the point from which we measure time. So that implies that if we cannot perceive it it does not exist. If we cannot perceive space then it cannot exist.
an interval in space distance cannot exist. Yet for all that if we want the big bang we have to say it was an event in time and space. So time and space must have been before
our perception of it. and although we know the interval of space is never ending and that we can measure distance in time and space, can we not say that time and space
are one and the same, since time has the same constancy as space. There is something about the scientific explanation of this that unsettles my way of thinking, it's just me.
Tim,
Thank you for taking the trouble and excuse my ignorance.
On Monday, March 24, 2014 8:29:16 PM UTC-4, lawrey wrote:
Tim,
Thank you for taking the trouble and excuse my ignorance.lawrey,I lack the education in physics to know for sure what I'm talking about. I lack the knowledge in physics that make things absolute reality or just convenient formulas to make a case. I stick with the Greater Science Community the same as I stick with the Greater Linguist Community. If the community says we are stopping knowns at the BB, I take that literally. Stop! We will get back to you when we can conclude something. I don't postulate a space for the BB even if after thee BB physics says it had to have had space. They cannot claim had to have had and absolutely stop at the BB.
Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy): "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing." (6)
John O'Keefe (astronomer at NASA): "We are, by astronomical standards, a pampered, cosseted, cherished group of creatures.. .. If the Universe had not been made with the most exacting precision we could never have come into existence. It is my view that these circumstances indicate the universe was created for man to live in"
On Monday, 24 March 2014 23:13:12 UTC, Timbo wrote:
On Sunday, March 23, 2014 6:27:55 AM UTC-4, lawrey wrote:
Tim,
you are virtually saying are you not, that time began when our perception of it became clear and in order for that we had to live and in order for that if we believe in the BB theory.
then that is and must be the point from which we measure time. So that implies that if we cannot perceive it it does not exist. If we cannot perceive space then it cannot exist.
an interval in space distance cannot exist. Yet for all that if we want the big bang we have to say it was an event in time and space. So time and space must have been before
our perception of it. and although we know the interval of space is never ending and that we can measure distance in time and space, can we not say that time and space
are one and the same, since time has the same constancy as space. There is something about the scientific explanation of this that unsettles my way of thinking, it's just me.It seems that all that you have revealed here is that yes, a distance was there before we learned to measure it with time, meters....I can't see time as tangible anything, more than a human describing energy in motion. If we can only mearsure that there was a big bang and not know what was before, then we cannot claim time and space before. We can't claim what we don't know about. I think we are assuming too much from physics in which we have no evidence. In this particular case, we are comparing known realities with unknown realities to come up with space.
On Saturday, 22 March 2014 22:00:22 UTC, Timbo wrote:
On Saturday, March 22, 2014 4:40:55 PM UTC-4, Alan Wostenberg wrote:Trance You say they would explain " the natural processes work to make the sky appear to be blue". But any process presumes time. But how is it there is time at all? How come time?I only know time as conceptual. Like pointing at a moving auto and saying it is moving forward or reverse. The reality is that there isn't a forward or reverse.Time is a measurement of distance of change. It is no different than measuring distance between mass. There are no inches, just like there are no spirits floating about.
People seem to report alleged paranormal experiences when they are in a poor state for making observations.
-John
-John
So basically you have learned to induce a brain malfunction in yourself.
-John
>Sometimes, but certainly not all of the time ... my OB experiences were a result of many years of putting out the welcome mat for "visitation" after i realized that there was something >"available" that was greater than the sum of my body parts ... i realized this after many childhood years of solitude and isolation where the only playground was my mind ... after rejecting several "invitations" to "leave my body" (because >of fear), i finally acquiesced to the "pulling" ... the rest is my history that i cannot share ... suffice it to say that is because "it" FAR exceeds anything i have ever experienced "in" my body ... >from my experiences i would say that there is something "out" there, just not the christian GOD >... what do i KNOW about it? ... nothing ;-^(
So basically you have learned to induce a brain malfunction in yourself.
-John
-John
No it doesn't, you just made that up, or repeated what some other atheist made up.
On Thursday, March 20, 2014 8:44:12 PM UTC-4, John Stockwell wrote:On Wednesday, March 19, 2014 9:29:43 PM UTC-6, Kurt Godel wrote:Ok, where are we at, Genesis starts with the Life Force/Breath of God vibrating over the Void/Nothingness, followed by Let there be Light.Let there be light is the Microwave Background Radiation, the first light. I can remember when "science" said religion was superstition because light existed from the beginning.Now, looking back further, before that first blinding flash of light, that visual wall, they see echoes of vibrations from above the Void.in_beginnings god-created with the_heavens and_with the_earthand_the_earth she-becomes chaos and_vacancy and_darkness over faces_me abyss and_breathofgod vibrating over faces_me the_watersand_god-is-saying he-is-becoming light and_he-is-becoming lightA very clever Hebrew wrote that.
Except it describes the same sort of parting of sky from sea above
a flat earth cosmology that was popular in the 1st millenium BCE.
You can make it mean anything you want by ignoring stuff, and reading
other things into it.
-John
On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 8:43:47 AM UTC-6, e_space wrote:
On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 10:23:40 AM UTC-4, John Stockwell wrote:>Sometimes, but certainly not all of the time ... my OB experiences were a result of many years of putting out the welcome mat for "visitation" after i realized that there was something >"available" that was greater than the sum of my body parts ... i realized this after many childhood years of solitude and isolation where the only playground was my mind ... after rejecting several "invitations" to "leave my body" (because >of fear), i finally acquiesced to the "pulling" ... the rest is my history that i cannot share ... suffice it to say that is because "it" FAR exceeds anything i have ever experienced "in" my body ... >from my experiences i would say that there is something "out" there, just not the christian GOD >... what do i KNOW about it? ... nothing ;-^(
So basically you have learned to induce a brain malfunction in yourself.if that's what you want to call it, fill your boots ... i would more likely call it a brain superfunction ... but that's just me ... maybe one day, if you dedicate yourself long and hard enough, you can achieve this too ;-^) ... until then, ignorance of the "event" will dominate your comprehension, or more accurately, lack thereof
So, what exactly is the benefit of this "superfunction" ?
Likely you have an experience
that is "indescribable", "profound", "transcendent"? Nothing like having impaired brain
function to make stuff look more impressive.
Incidentally, the things you say are things that people who have taken LSD say.
They
don't seem any improved for the experience, nor do you.
-John
Hi Timbo,space, time, matter and energy all came into being with the big bang, according to the theorems ofspecial relativity worked by Hawking, penrose, ellis
On Thursday, March 20, 2014 3:52:45 AM UTC+1, Alan Wostenberg wrote:Sort to crash the party, Ian, by "muddying the discovery with theology" but what is all the excitement about 10^-35 secondth time period if not that it is believed to light on the question of the origin of life, the universe, and everything?They find it interesting precisely because of its perceived relevance to first cause.
The reason for the excitement is that the early conditions of the universe were very different to what they are now, and understanding what was happening this early in the history of the universe gives us an insight into the basic laws of nature.
It's not really anything to do with "first cause" as such.
I have been told by Trance that Salvatore has told her that it could possibly have a bearing on multiverse theory.
On Tuesday, March 18, 2014 4:38:00 AM UTC-8, rappoccio wrote:Hi, Lawrey,Glad to be of service! This is a really momentous discovery, it's the earliest phenomenon ever observed, so it's a really big deal. It can get us observational evidence up to around 10^-35 seconds after the cosmic inflationary event. Really cool stuff!
So, how did they come up with so accurate a measurement of 10^-35 seconds? I notice the accuracy of a Cesium clock is only about 3 parts in 10^14. Is it just the result of math calculations?
-BillOn Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 8:17 AM, lawrey <lawre...@btinternet.com> wrote:
Rap',
Thanks for that, coincidentally this had a mention last night on the news, and I am looking forward to the
particle physicist, Brian Fox, discussing it in one of his very interesting programs soon. If anyone can
help an ignoramus like me to get the gist of it he can. Trust you and yours are well, take care.
On Monday, 17 March 2014 16:31:09 UTC, rappoccio wrote:Here's a post :Today, the Harvard Center for Astrophysics had a press release (you can try to click the link, but this discovery broke the internet) from the BICEP2 collaboration, announcing the discovery of echoes from the earliest period in our entire history of the universe, effectively 10^-35 seconds after the cosmic inflationary event we colloquially call "the big bang".
Graphic explaining the evidence of gravitational wavesfrom the moments following inflation.
To put this in context, this is one of the biggest discoveries in cosmology ever made. It provides the first direct evidence of the cosmic inflationary model ever observed.
This direct evidence takes the form of gravity waves in a spectrum of photons that existed 380,000 years after the big bang. Gravity waves are little ripples in space-time that cause the force of gravity to shift slightly, as if it were water with a pebble dropped in it. However, unlike water, space-time can take on different distortions called "polarizations". Light exhibits this phenomenon that you are familiar with if you have ever used polarized sunglasses or lenses.
The gravitational waves that were emitted at the instant following the cosmic inflationary event propagated through space-time, distorting it in multiple directions. The discovery by BICEP2 has observed these primordial gravitational waves, giving us the earliest known physical remnant of the moment of inflation ever observed.
To understand how this observation was made, we must first explain the medium it was detected in. For the first 380,000 years following this event, the universe was completely opaque because light (photons) was being absorbed and reemitted instantly by the matter in the universe.
As the universe cooled, the matter lost kinetic energy (exactly as your air conditioner functions). After 380,000 years, the universe had sufficiently expanded and cooled to allow light to propagate through the universe again. The interesting bit is that these same photons that existed 13.8 billion years ago are still around today. It is called the cosmic microwave background (or CMB). If you ever watched an old antenna television, a fraction of the noise that you observed was caused by these ancient photons in the CMB.
The CMB is the medium via which the gravity waves propagated. By observing subtle twists and turns of the photons in the CMB, the astrophysicists at BICEP2 were able to discern a pattern that is compatible with the hypothesis of gravity waves being detected, but incompatible with the background. This signals a discovery of the gravity waves directly observable by us, here, 13.8 billion years later. In the analogy of the pebble dropped in the pond, we're literally jiggling around on the waves in space-time from the earliest period in the known universe.
For a more technical discussion see Sean Carroll's blog post about it which is better than anything I have the expertise to explain.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/atheism-vs-christianity/bf794c03-b01f-4d7f-9955-21fd2ddad9f5%40googlegroups.com.--
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Sorry for the delay, folks! My herniated disc really limits my computer time and I've been very busy. ;).Bill : that's a good question, actually. That's the time at which the energy of the actual universe would have been sufficient to cause the gravity waves. It's the time at which these were predicted to occur, similar to the prediction of the method of identifying them (the polarizations twist in a particular way).About the ongoing discussions : Space-time is the real physical quantity in the relativistic "distance" metric. Space and time are able to transform into one another. The same mathematics that explain this help to make your GPS work in your phone. Separating time out from space is literally meaningless and dependent upon how fast you're moving. Space-time also happens to be in a hyperbolic geometry.
Art,
Thank you for your contribution, but I find it difficult to comprehend your requirement to insert this paragraph, which any sound, intelligent mind might find incomprehensible.
"We Christians call this the spirit realm and perhaps there were symbolic shadows or types of what we now have in our material universe but "space" had a totally different meaningbecause matter as we know it did not yet exist."
For what intelligible purpose and or need would and or could there be, to wish or want to fill a space-time continuum with unknown, imagined, metaphysical nonentities designed
solely for the purpose of maintaining the status quo of ancient religious superstitions and specious somewhat vacuous vacillations of pagan beliefs?
Is there any need of a 'spirit realm' and why? What useful purpose would it serve?
On Thursday, March 20, 2014 5:44:12 PM UTC-7, John Stockwell wrote:On Wednesday, March 19, 2014 9:29:43 PM UTC-6, Kurt Godel wrote:Ok, where are we at, Genesis starts with the Life Force/Breath of God vibrating over the Void/Nothingness, followed by Let there be Light.Let there be light is the Microwave Background Radiation, the first light. I can remember when "science" said religion was superstition because light existed from the beginning.Now, looking back further, before that first blinding flash of light, that visual wall, they see echoes of vibrations from above the Void.
ObserverYou might enjoy this, it is very interesting and informative.Psychonomist