"Modern" paper puncher and reader

[Augusto Baffa]

Hi, 

 Is there a project to recreate a paper puncher?

Hansel created a project to construct a paper reader https://github.com/dhansel/PaperTapeReader and It would be nice if we could create our tapes as well...

best,

Augusto Baffa

[Thomas Niccum]

Just ran across this on Tindie...   At least it would be possible to make some small tapes.

https://www.tindie.com/products/hackmodular/paper-tape-mate/

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

IF people want one, I can design the same thing for 3D printing so the cost is maybe 50cents rather than $20+ ...  

This is a little simpler, but still you would be punching holes in a paper tape and just one page of code would need about 10,000 holes.  I don't have that much patience.  

It is very similar to one of the solutions I was thinking about.  A manual punch but with multiple capital only letters, period, comma, brackets etc.  maybe 35 pieces total that shift into place via stepper motor, then the user presses a lever to punch the holes.  That seemed too insane to design and build for testing though.  

[Tom Brusehaver]

The tindie one is only a 5 level punch (baudot).  

It would be good to have an ASCII 8 level punch.

If you are up for doing the cad work, I'd like one. 

Tom

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[Augusto Baffa]

It could be used with servo motors controlled by an arduino to create an automated puncher. I was thinking if in a project to create a tape puncher/reader using arduino to save and read programs using altairduino.

David Hansel created a fantastic tape reader https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ2VWKNlPQU and It could be available and maybe have an automated puncher as well.

https://github.com/dhansel/PaperTapeReader

--

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

The problem is paper tape is very tough to punch through, it requires strong metal pins and even stronger hammers to push the metal pins through the tape, so that's the only thing halting making an automatic tape punch.  

I'm sure the electronics would be very simple, send a parallel byte to the punch, then send a serial byte to step the tape forward.  It would be the simplest of BASIC programs.  

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

First draft ... only thing I need is the exact dimensions of the holes and the hole spacing to finish the design.

[Augusto Baffa]

this is awesome!

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[Tom Brusehaver]

From the pdp-8 site ASR-33 specs

https://www.pdp8online.com/asr33/asr33.shtml

Paper Tape

1" by 1000 foot roll 8 level 10 bytes per inch

Operating Environment

Temperature:  110 F

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/altair-duino/26aaf3e5-968f-4567-8711-7b9b409e3150n%40googlegroups.com.

[Tom Brusehaver]

The idea holes are smaller, but they line up with the data holes

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

That's the numbers I need to find.  The spacing across the tape.  The distance from bit to bit plus the spacing to the feeder hole.  

10 Bytes/Inch isn't as important to a hand pulled or even simple motor pulled reader as the readers just look for the next byte.  

[Tom Brusehaver]

Wikipedia has the hole sizes:

1 inch (25.4 mm) for tapes with six or more bits. Hole spacing was 0.1 inch (2.54 mm) in both directions. Data holes were 0.072 inches (1.83 mm) in diameter; feed holes were 0.046 inches (1.17 mm).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape

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[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

Yeah, I found that wiki page too ... there are most of the numbers, but I think I figured out the rest from the way the tapes were designed.  The .STL files are here for you to test 3D print and give me some feedback.  My printer is down and waiting for parts.  

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

As I think about this project, I wonder if since we're just using an Altair 8800 emulator, why not design a larger paper tape punch and reader using the dimensions of a common off the shelf roll paper that can be bought at almost any stationary store?  

There are plenty of standard paper tape readers that can read the original types of paper tape, but eventually, all the paper tapes ever created that still exist will already be read into computer files so there is no real need to punch new paper tapes that conform to the original dimensions.  

For experiment and play using larger dots on a perhaps 2" wide paper tape might make punching easier and reading easier.  

With parallel ports on the computers we could also simplify the electronics for reading the paper tapes and best of all people could just run the blank paper through many types of printers to print nice large black dots on the paper where people could then either read the dots or punch them out with a paper punch or use a vinyl cutter.  

Just an idea ... 

[Augusto Baffa]

Yep.. My first idea was to use the same paper we use in termal printers. It's easy to find and the paper is thin, so I guess it would be easier to punch.

for example... 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C8CQPQU/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?pd_rd_i=B01C8CQPQU&pd_rd_w=HiAWM&pf_rd_p=54ed5474-54a8-4c7f-a88a-45f748d18166&pd_rd_wg=q3kFy&pf_rd_r=PQEGWZ1MY7Q0PME6CRJA&pd_rd_r=fc5552f1-610b-42fa-9cd0-44235531dcac&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFHWEw5MFZRQkRXMzAmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA0NzgwMzYyUDJYQzdJTVRIRzJXJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA4OTc5NjAyUlNCV1ZSUVc2Mk1UJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsX3RoZW1hdGljJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1

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[Gwen Patton]

I found a source for the original Teletype paper tape. Who knows if it's still active, how much they have, etc., but they say they have a fair supply.

http://www.aetherltd.com/supplies.html

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

73,

Gwen, NG3P

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[pbi...@gmail.com]

I’m late to the party I see.  ECMA 10 Data interchange on punched tape is freely available at:

 

https://www.ecma-international.org/publications-and-standards/standards/ecma-10/

…

[Chris Davis]

That link for paper tape is for Model 14 tape (5/16") which is not 8-bit punched paper tape, but rather for the old-timey "news ticker".

[pbi...@gmail.com]

Correct.  For five-level tape look for 11/16” on eBay.  For 8-level look for 1” tape.

 

From: altair...@googlegroups.com <altair...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Chris Davis
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 11:05 AM
To: Altair-Duino <altair...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: "Modern" paper puncher and reader

 

That link for paper tape is for Model 14 tape (5/16") which is not 8-bit punched paper tape, but rather for the old-timey "news ticker".

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 4:38:23 PM UTC-6 ard...@gmail.com wrote:

I found a source for the original Teletype paper tape. Who knows if it's still active, how much they have, etc., but they say they have a fair supply.

 

http://www.aetherltd.com/supplies.html

 

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

73,

Gwen, NG3P

 

 

On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 5:11 PM Augusto Baffa <augb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yep.. My first idea was to use the same paper we use in termal printers. It's easy to find and the paper is thin, so I guess it would be easier to punch.

 

for example... 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01C8CQPQU/ref=sspa_dk_detail_1?pd_rd_i=B01C8CQPQU&pd_rd_w=HiAWM&pf_rd_p=54ed5474-54a8-4c7f-a88a-45f748d18166&pd_rd_wg=q3kFy&pf_rd_r=PQEGWZ1MY7Q0PME6CRJA&pd_rd_r=fc5552f1-610b-42fa-9cd0-44235531dcac&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFHWEw5MFZRQkRXMzAmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA0NzgwMzYyUDJYQzdJTVRIRzJXJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA4OTc5NjAyUlNCV1ZSUVc2Mk1UJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsX3RoZW1hdGljJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1

 

 

Em qua., 19 de jan. de 2022 às 19:07, Walt Perko <r4r...@gmail.com> escreveu:

Hi, 

 

As I think about this project, I wonder if since we're just using an Altair 8800 emulator, why not design a larger paper tape punch and reader using the dimensions of a common off the shelf roll paper that can be bought at almost any stationary store?  

 

There are plenty of standard paper tape readers that can read the original types of paper tape, but eventually, all the paper tapes ever created that still exist will already be read into computer files so there is no real need to punch new paper tapes that conform to the original dimensions.  

 

For experiment and play using larger dots on a perhaps 2" wide paper tape might make punching easier and reading easier.  

 

With parallel ports on the computers we could also simplify the electronics for reading the paper tapes and best of all people could just run the blank paper through many types of printers to print nice large black dots on the paper where people could then either read the dots or punch them out with a paper punch or use a vinyl cutter.  

 

Just an idea ... 

 

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 11:35:12 AM UTC-8 Walt Perko wrote:

Hi, 

 

Yeah, I found that wiki page too ... there are most of the numbers, but I think I figured out the rest from the way the tapes were designed.  The .STL files are here for you to test 3D print and give me some feedback.  My printer is down and waiting for parts.  

 

 

 

 

 

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 10:31:42 AM UTC-8 coz...@gmail.com wrote:

Wikipedia has the hole sizes:

 

1 inch (25.4 mm) for tapes with six or more bits. Hole spacing was 0.1 inch (2.54 mm) in both directions. Data holes were 0.072 inches (1.83 mm) in diameter; feed holes were 0.046 inches (1.17 mm).

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_tape

 

 

 

On Wed, Jan 19, 2022, 12:21 PM Walt Perko <r4r...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, 

 

That's the numbers I need to find.  The spacing across the tape.  The distance from bit to bit plus the spacing to the feeder hole.  

 

10 Bytes/Inch isn't as important to a hand pulled or even simple motor pulled reader as the readers just look for the next byte.  

 

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 10:16:31 AM UTC-8 coz...@gmail.com wrote:

The idea holes are smaller, but they line up with the data holes

 

On Wed, Jan 19, 2022, 12:12 PM Tom Brusehaver <coz...@gmail.com> wrote:

From the pdp-8 site ASR-33 specs

 

https://www.pdp8online.com/asr33/asr33.shtml

 

Paper Tape

1" by 1000 foot roll 8 level 10 bytes per inch

 

Operating Environment

Temperature:  110 F

 

On Wed, Jan 19, 2022, 12:00 PM Walt Perko <r4r...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, 

 

First draft ... only thing I need is the exact dimensions of the holes and the hole spacing to finish the design.

 

 

 

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 9:04:26 AM UTC-8 Walt Perko wrote:

Hi, 

 

The problem is paper tape is very tough to punch through, it requires strong metal pins and even stronger hammers to push the metal pins through the tape, so that's the only thing halting making an automatic tape punch.  

 

I'm sure the electronics would be very simple, send a parallel byte to the punch, then send a serial byte to step the tape forward.  It would be the simplest of BASIC programs.  

 

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 8:48:13 AM UTC-8 augb...@gmail.com wrote:

It could be used with servo motors controlled by an arduino to create an automated puncher. I was thinking if in a project to create a tape puncher/reader using arduino to save and read programs using altairduino.

 

David Hansel created a fantastic tape reader https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ2VWKNlPQU and It could be available and maybe have an automated puncher as well.

https://github.com/dhansel/PaperTapeReader

 

 

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/altair-duino/c22dce4c-9ea5-4e07-8479-facf614c0bean%40googlegroups.com.

[Al Schemmer]

I totally agree, something along the lines of the Heathkit H10 paper tape reader/punch.

 

Would 3d printed punch mechanism be sturdy enough?

Even if we had to replace the punches occasionally.

 

Al

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[Chris Davis]

Mike Douglas has all the documentation to build a Heathkit H10, complete with parts list and assembly instructions: https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Other%20Computers%20and%20Boards/Heathkit/H8/40%20H8%20IO%20and%20Storage%20Devices/H10%20Paper%20Tape%20Reader-Punch/

Anyone want to give it a shot? :)

[Charley Jones]

A really brilliant arrangement of relays.

I’m really surprised they were fast enough.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Chris Davis
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 8:42 AM
To: Altair-Duino
Subject: Re: "Modern" paper puncher and reader

 

Mike Douglas has all the documentation to build a Heathkit H10, complete with parts list and assembly instructions: https://deramp.com/downloads/mfe_archive/011-Other%20Computers%20and%20Boards/Heathkit/H8/40%20H8%20IO%20and%20Storage%20Devices/H10%20Paper%20Tape%20Reader-Punch/

 

Anyone want to give it a shot? :)

On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 10:30:45 AM UTC-6 al.sc...@outlook.com wrote:

I totally agree, something along the lines of the Heathkit H10 paper tape reader/punch.

 

Would 3d printed punch mechanism be sturdy enough?

Even if we had to replace the punches occasionally.

 

Al

 

 

From: Augusto Baffa
Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2022 9:12 AM
To: Altair-Duino
Subject: "Modern" paper puncher and reader

 

Hi, 

 Is there a project to recreate a paper puncher?

Hansel created a project to construct a paper reader https://github.com/dhansel/PaperTapeReader and It would be nice if we could create our tapes as well..

 

best,

Augusto Baffa

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[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

IF you 3D print as a solid, the manual punch should last ... the hard thing would be to get some spring loaded PINs to make the chads.  It could be something like a 1-row by 5-position or 1-row by 8-position that could be pressed by fingers in the character like typewriter keys.  

An expensive beefy stepper motor could press a pin through regular paper tape, but it really should be a 1/8 h.p. a.c. or d.c. motor spinning and pressing multiple levers at the same time like the original paper tape punchers did.  

But all that stuff is made from metal parts and that would take a lot of desktop CNC milling ... day's to make the parts for one machine.  

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

Well I got the 3D printed prototype and it looks better than I imagined.  I also think it might be able to become the basis for a computer connected automatic paper tape punch!  

The PINs I have fit perfectly, they're nice and pointy so I think with the right setup, simple servo motors could hammer the pins through paper tapes.  

[John Kennedy]

I am interested in this project, having just tried - and failed - to use a Cricut to make a tape. I have a laser cutter, but there are also issues with that (like, not setting fire to the tape). I think the tape punch problem was solved 50 years ago: you need metal to punch/cut a hole. Those aren't needles you're using, right but a kind of punch/cutter than won't create a chad? The force needed to punch a hole might require a hefty servo. 

[Roger Linhart]

I'd suggest taking a look at the working part of a paper punch to get the geometry you need for the paper punchers.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/altair-duino/341de863-07d1-46f1-9af0-d7715793910dn%40googlegroups.com.

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Roger Linhart
Portland, OR  97230
Mobile: 541-690-8560

[Walt Perko]

Hi,

I prefer to think outside the box rather than simply copying another design.  

[Tom Brusehaver]

Poking holes in the tape will probably work for mechanical tape readers. Optical tape readers will want a clean punch with the chad removed.

Tom

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[Tom Wilson]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. This isn't actually going to work, because it doesn't actually make a proper hole. It creates a tear, which is not the same thing. A punch needs to actually remove material, not just pierce the paper in a way that will close back up when you flatten the paper (such as wrapping it back up on a roll.)

This is why hole punches are flat, not shaped like a needle.

Tom Wilson
wils...@gmail.com
(619)940-6311 

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

Actually, I think the mechanical readers would have problems with holes made by a pin because the reader pins probably wouldn't get through to touch the contact on the other side.  OTOH, light will get through the tiniest hole, so it's up to the sensitivity of the photo resistor or transistor.  

[Mike S]

Have you (or anyone else) made a 3D print model (similar to the tindie link in this discussion) but for the 8-bit 1" tape? I'd be interested (and am new to 3D printing, please forgive if my terms are slightly off)
Thanks!

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 10:34:21 AM UTC-6 r4r...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi, 

IF people want one, I can design the same thing for 3D printing so the cost is maybe 50cents rather than $20+ ...  

This is a little simpler, but still you would be punching holes in a paper tape and just one page of code would need about 10,000 holes.  I don't have that much patience.  

It is very similar to one of the solutions I was thinking about.  A manual punch but with multiple capital only letters, period, comma, brackets etc.  maybe 35 pieces total that shift into place via stepper motor, then the user presses a lever to punch the holes.  That seemed too insane to design and build for testing though.  

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 8:11:43 AM UTC-8 tni...@gmail.com wrote:

Just ran across this on Tindie...   At least it would be possible to make some small tapes.

https://www.tindie.com/products/hackmodular/paper-tape-mate/

On Sunday, January 16, 2022 at 7:12:07 AM UTC-8 augb...@gmail.com wrote:

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

Yes, the files for both types are on this page:  https://pinshape.com/items/108598-3d-printed-paper-tape-reader-machine

.

[Mike S]

Awesome, thanks!