Re: {Yan Arewa} Re: [Naijadreamteamintellectuals] Re: ||NaijaObserver|| Re: [africanworldforum] On the Matter of Investing PENCOM Funds for National ...

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Segun Sanni

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Oct 8, 2015, 11:42:07 AM10/8/15
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When you get on some of these your ridiculous arguments, you often leave us speechless, wondering where that came from! It's either that you don't consider these opinions very deeply before airing them or you thoroughly underrate the intelligence of your readers or both. You just want to throw everything into an argument, no matter how obtuse that point may be! 
The Fed Govt has 5yr, 7yr, 10yr and 20yr bonds in existence. On that score, a good number of the bonds outstanding today have been in existence since during and before the Obasanjo years. ‎Despite that, all the FGN bonds (of all tenors) still outstanding today are not more than N3.5Trn, if at all they're up to, in value. And the maximum tenor of Treasury bills is one year (meaning all T-bills the CBN issued a year ago have all been paid up as at today). 
In your knowledge of Public Finance, when investors INVEST in government bonds, that tantamounts to the government misappropriating funds from those investors? Pension Funds INVESTING in Government bonds, Treasury Bills, etc, are the reasonable justification for Oshiomhole's charge that government took and spent pension funds? All the banks which also bought government bonds can be said to have given depositors' funds to the government to spend on recurrent expenditure? All individuals who equally bought government bonds have been robbed of their family wealth by the government on account of their investment in government bonds? And the shares bought by the pension funds are free monies given to the issuing companies by the pension funds for spending too? 
And the bonds which the DMO has recently issued for bail out for the states were monies taken out of pension funds too?? If that be the case, we can then say Buhari's government has joined Jonathan to take monies out pension funds to finance the extravagant spending of state governors like Oshiomhole. You surprise us with these ghastly arguments o. 
Yeye dey smell.  


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From: Imperial imperi...@yahoo.com [AfricanWorldForum]
Sent: Thursday, 8 October 2015 13:19
Subject: Re: {Yan Arewa} Re: [Naijadreamteamintellectuals] Re: ||NaijaObserver|| Re: [africanworldforum] On the Matter of Investing PENCOM Funds for National ...

 


As Professsor Aluko rightly stated, the Pension Funds Commission doesn't hold money but it controls the Pension Funds Administrators ( PFA) and the Pension Funds Custodial Banking companies both that hold pension funds money through the pension funds acts and other forms of moral suasion.

The rules in Nigeria is that at least 70 - 80% ( correct me if am wrong )  of the money held by the PFAs be invested in government securities which usually are the Treasury Bills, Treasury Certificate and the Federal Government bonds which generally speaking we call government borrowing. 

Based on the total funds held by the various PFAs and considering the fact that a large chunk of their funds is invested in the aforementioned government short and long term securities, no one should doubt the possibility of such huge amount being  borrowed by the Federal government through the Debt Management Office so I can boldly say that Oshiomhole is right . 

Being a top insider the industry,if you keep arguing that the fund hasn't been passed to the federal government through the various government securities, please where is the large chunk of the fund ? Kindly stop defending those who mismanaged our economy . 

Pension Fund is a long term money, in many countries, a sizable proportion of the portfolio is always invested in some long term capital market products . If Mrs Iweala used this this type of borrowed fund to pay salaries and other recurrent expenses would you say she Is a competent minister of Finance ? What we criticized governor Aregbesola for  months ago was equally done on a mega scale by Dr Mrs Ngozi Okonjo Iweela ( Phd MIT, Yale, Harvard, Cantab, LSE ) . Lol 




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On 8 Oct 2015, at 13:07, Segun Sanni therea...@yahoo.com [YanArewa] <YanA...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Please explain to us now!!! You're not known to be reticent when you think you have your facts! Lol.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
From: Imperial imperi...@yahoo.com [AfricanWorldForum]
Sent: Thursday, 8 October 2015 13:02
Subject: Re: [Naijadreamteamintellectuals] Re: ||NaijaObserver|| Re: [africanworldforum] On the Matter of Investing PENCOM Funds for National ...

 

Don't muddle up the issue. You should know better being a former boss of a pension company. Former president Jonathan and Mrs Okonjo - Iweala ( Phd Harvard ) should be publicly caned for economic mismanagement . 



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On 8 Oct 2015, at 12:57, Segun Sanni therea...@yahoo.com [Naijadreamteamintellectuals] <Naijadreamtea...@yahoogroups.co.uk> wrote:

 

Please tell us. 
So the money being raised by the DMO to bail out the states is also from the pension funds?? Lol.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
From: Imperial imperi...@yahoo.com [AfricanWorldForum]
Sent: Thursday, 8 October 2015 12:53
Subject: Re: ||NaijaObserver|| Re: [africanworldforum] On the Matter of Investing PENCOM Funds for National ...

 

JCA, 
Please don't jump into conclusions, what Governor Oshiomhole said makes a lot of sense ,You are an accountant you should know how governments raise money through the DMO . 
 

Sent from my iPad

On 8 Oct 2015, at 11:17, Joe Attueyi topc...@yahoo.com [NaijaObserver] <NaijaO...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

1)  Was  N3.5 trn drawn from PENCOM during this period?

Prof Aluko
When a person of the status of a state governor makes a statement one ought to take it seriously. However if it is founded on so flawed a premise as that excerpted above then one has to worry whether 'everything is alright'. 

PENCOM is a public institution that REGULATES activities of PRIVATE SECTOR institutions--Pension fund administrators and Pension fund custodians. PENCOM has neither custody nor control over pension fund contributions 

It is NOT possible to withdraw N3.5 trillion from PENCOM---simply because PENCOM does NOT have N3.5 trillion. 

If you and/or Oshio can show that anybody withdrew N3.5 trillion from PENCOM I'll pay $1,000 to any charity of your choice no questions asked   

Joe
Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 8, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Ibimgm via AfricanWorldForum <africanw...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Just too much speculation!  What actually did happen?
GMI.
 
In a message dated 10/8/2015 4:09:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, alu...@gmail.com writes:

My People:

Here is what Oshiomhole is quoted to have said:

QUOTE

You challenge Pencom and Ministry of Finance, you will discover that over N3.5tn was drawn by the previous government from pension funds to support recurrent expenditure, not to support infrastructure.

UNQUOTE

Assuming he was quoted correctly - no embellishment or fabrication - there are two issues here:

1. First is the very character of MISAPPROPRIATION. If that is what Oshiomhole is hinting at, then misappropriation/misapplication means not spending a particular money the way it was meant to be spent, sometimes by the person who has custody of the money, who may do it under the influence of another person.  I am not sure that is what Oshiomhole is stating here.  It is therefore trite to say that something CANNOT happen, when in fact the very POSSIBILITY/REALITY of its happening is the ILLEGALITY being hinted at.


2. Secondly, and more importantly, is to ask certain questions:

    (1)  Was  N3.5 trn drawn from PENCOM during this period?
(2) How much of it was invested in INFRASTRUCTURE?
(3) Is there ANY other CAPITAL category OUTSIDE of Infrastructure that PENCOM spent part of the money on?

If NONE was invested in Infrastructure or any other Capital Project - as Oshiomhole is likely to be hinting - then the ONLY other category that PENCOM must have spent the money on would be RECURRENT - to pay for
(A) its (PENCOM) own workers (salaries + allowances)
(B) to pay for its own overhead operations
(C) to pay for retirees - its primary aim.

I believe that is what Oshimhole is hinting at - that the N3.5 trn was not INVESTED to generate more money - maybe beyond interest income from banks - and was used to do (A), (B), (C) above, rather than to include
 
    (D)  Investment in Infrastructure (Roads, Railway, Power, Water), for which citizens will be required to pay

    (E)  Low-Interest Loans for Education

    (F)  Low-Interest Loan for Agriculture

    (G)  Low-Interest Loans for Manufacturing Industries

    (H) Conservative Investment in Foreign Securities

 A successful investment in these will not only DEVELOP the country, but a portion of the return on investments will be ADDED to the income of the retirees via (D) to (G) above.

That is what is done all the world over - except in Nigeria apparently - out of fear of corruption? We must rise above that, and be confident that we can put the proper controls.

In conclusion, I fully support the conservative use of the trillions of PENCOM in developing our country. Not doing so is ridiculous, and is like that story of the Bible where one man was given a talent and he BURIED it and returned it to its owner who upbraided him, while the others invested theirs, and where given even more money.

And there you have it.


Bolaji Aluko



On Wed, Oct 7, 2015 at 10:42 PM, 'Leye Ige' via AfricanWorldForum <africanw...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
"The funds are held by one independent institution while the investment decisions are made by a different private sector entity. All regulated by PENCOM..No Government can use pension funds as before because the funds neither belong to Govt nor controlled by Govt."--Joe Attueyi



(1) The funds need NOT belong to or  be controlled by the Government BEFORE the government can access it. The Government appoints whoever will be the directors  of PENCOM and associated entities.
(2) The government does NOT have to "use it as before"; that is, simply dipping its hands into it; BUT the government can utilize it via "Investments"--which is what Pension funds are all about-- just that in this case, the "investment" is in recurrent expenditure.
Leye Ige


--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 10/7/15, Joe Attueyi topc...@yahoo.com [OmoOdua] <Omo...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 Subject: [OmoOdua] Re: [NIgerianWorldForum] Re: Jonathan spent N3.5tn pension fund on recurrent expenditure – Oshiomhole
 To: Omo...@yahoogroups.com
 Cc: Omo...@yahoogroups.com, "Segun Sanni therea...@yahoo.com [NaijaPolitics]" <NaijaP...@yahoogroups.com>, "Oyo State Intellectual Forum" <Oyo-...@yahoogroups.com>, "NAIJA Dream Team Intellectuals" <naijadreamtea...@yahoogroups.com>, "Buddies" <Cauc...@yahoogroups.com>, "Ode- Besilu's Group" <NaijaO...@yahoogroups.com>, "AfricanWorldForum" <AfricanW...@yahoogroups.com>, "Naija News" <TalkN...@yahoogroups.com>, "yahoogroups" <Egbe...@yahoogroups.com>, "Unilorin friends" <Universityo...@yahoogroups.com>, "Yan" <YanA...@yahoogroups.com>, "Professionals" <capitalmark...@yahoogroups.com>, "Ra'ayi Riga" <raay...@yahoogroups.com>, "Naija...@googlegroups.com" <Naija...@googlegroups.com>, "African GM" <africanw...@googlegroups.com>
 Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2015, 12:29 PM


  









       Post Adeola commission restructuring of
 the pension system:
 the  pension
 funds contributed
 ‎under the auspices of
 the National Pension Commission
 (PenCom) are
 managed by privately owned Pension Fund
 Administrators (PFAs) and kept in custody by
 Pension Fund
 Custodians
 (PFCs).

 as Segun
 rightly educated those who are interested in knowing how the
 pension system currently works in Nigeria. The funds are
 held by one independent institution while the investment
 decisions are made by a different private sector entity. All
 regulated by PENCOM. 
 No Government can use
 pension funds as before because the funds neither belong to
 Govt nor controlled by Govt. 
 Some state governments
 have not adopted these pension reforms. Edo is probably one
 of them -- which would explain Oshio's
 confusion
 Joe
 Sent from my iPhone
 On Oct 7, 2015, at 4:48 PM, Leye Ige ige....@yahoo.com
 [NIgerianWorldForum] <NIgerianW...@yahoogroups.com>
 wrote:

 the  pension funds contributed

  ‎under the auspices of the National Pension Commission

  (PenCom) are managed by privately owned Pension Fund

  Administrators (PFAs) and kept in custody by Pension
 Fund

  Custodians (PFCs).





     










         Posted by: Joe Attueyi <topc...@yahoo.com>





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Segun Sanni

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Oct 8, 2015, 4:09:10 PM10/8/15
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‎Let me break it down. If you say the Fed Govt debt stock was N11 Trillion when Buhari took over, please note that that debt stock is made up of Govt Bonds, Treasury Bills, Unpaid pensions, debts to contractors, debts to banks, foreign debts, etc. How much of of the N11 Trillion is Govt Bonds? 
Now back to the questions which you've ignored: if pension funds, along with other investors, invest in government debt papers, that justifies your position that government has thus dipped its hands in pension funds? So when banks invest in government bonds, that means to you the government is dipping its hands in depositors' funds too? And when pension funds buy shares, it means those companies are also dipping their hands into the pension funds? 
And if this is your elementary interpretation of finance, it means the debt paper being issued by the DMO for bailout is also from the pension funds and so, President Buhari too is taking the pension funds? 
This was the philosophy upon which you wanted to collect $1,000?? 
I think even Oshiomhole would disown this your argument ‎if you try sell it to him as explanation for another one of his funny rants. 


Please note that Treasury bills have other tenors than 91 days. There are the Open Market Operations (OMO) T-bills of 21 days, 23 days, etc and there are 180-day T-bills and there are 364-day T-bills. 


Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
From: Imperial imperi...@yahoo.com [AfricanWorldForum]
Sent: Thursday, 8 October 2015 17:12
Subject: Re: {Yan Arewa} Re: [Naijadreamteamintellectuals] Re: ||NaijaObserver|| Re: [africanworldforum] On the Matter of Investing PENCOM Funds for National ...

 

You like to engage in irrelevant and avoidable arguments because the total naira denominated public debt as at the time Buhari took over government was in excess of 11trillion naira of which a large chunk was financed through the various gilts issued by the CBN Discount Offce and the Debt Management Office . 
Government all over the world increase their public sector borrowing requirements through selling various government instruments to individuals, various institutions and pension funds . Treasury bills have 91 days tenor and a large chunk of the federal government borrowing is raised using this instrument while the Treasury Certificates are for six month or one year tenor and the amount in issue have been increasing over years meaning the government debt continue to increase yearly .
There is no crime in government raising debt using money from the pension fund but it doesn't make any economic sense if the fund borrowed is used to finance recurrent expenditure . It's like an unemployed or underemployed man borrowing money to buy beer and expensive dresses instead of using same to create businesses or property that would generate future income . What will happen if the government is broke, how the various PFAs recovered the funds invested in financing expenses ? 
From this debate, a new thought has come to my mind ; henceforth fund borrowed from the pension fund institutions must be invested in infrastructure or real estate which the lender could hold in case of future default .




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afis 'Deinde

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Oct 8, 2015, 4:23:19 PM10/8/15
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"Based on the total funds held by the various PFAs and considering the fact that a large chunk of their funds is invested in the aforementioned government short and long term securities, no one should doubt the possibility of such huge amount being  borrowed by the Federal government through the Debt Management Office so I can boldly say that Oshiomhole is right . ".........Imperial.

Good point!
Shikena 
Afis
“Just as a solid rock is not shaken by the storm, even so the wise are not affected by praise or blame.” — Dhamapada, verse 81.

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Segun Sanni

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Oct 9, 2015, 1:34:50 AM10/9/15
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I just came off a flight, hence my replying you just now. 
You have not answered the relevant questions ‎posed to you‎. Let me ask you again, perhaps slightly differently thus:

The DMO bonds which the Federal Government just raised to refinance the extravagant spending and salary debts of Oshiomhole and other state governors, is that also about this government dipping its ‎hands into our pension funds? 

This government has also dipped its hands in the pension funds through the billions of Naira the pension funds have invested in government securities since May 2015? 

The listed companies have also been dipping their hands in pension funds through monies the pension funds have been investing in the shares of the companies? 

The government has also been dipping its hands in depositors' funds through the monies the banks invest in government securities? 

Should we stop pension funds from investing in government securities so that people like you and Oshiomhole would not think the government is dipping its hands in pension funds?

I'm laughing in Pidgin English! 
Yeyenatu!

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
From: Imperial imperi...@yahoo.com [Naijadreamteamintellectuals]
Sent: Thursday, 8 October 2015 22:08
Subject: Re: {Yan Arewa} Re: [Naijadreamteamintellectuals] Re: ||NaijaObserver|| Re: [africanworldforum] On the Matter of Investing PENCOM Funds for National ...

 

You are not root once again . The total amount outstanding in various government debts at the end of June 2015 is over 8trillion naira so 
Oshiomole account that 3.5 billion of the sum was financed by the pension fund makes a lot of sense .  Oshiomole's position is as easy as ABC or common senses; if the total pension funds held by different PFAs is about 5trillion naira and the law says at last 70% - 80% must be invested in government gilts and bonds, development stocks where then should 3.5trillion naira go ? Are you saying that the PFAs didn't comply with the law ? You are a top professional in this field,kindly  stop defending the incompetent regime that borrowed money at 11 to 14%pa  from the money and capital market to pay salaries and other recurrent expenses . 
Debt papers being issued by the DMO for states are not necessarily financed by the pension fund. As I earlier stated there is nothing wrong if the pension fund is used to finance the government but it better if used for remunerative ventures  not for daily or yearly expenses 
The traditional tenor for freshly issued Treasury Bills in Nigeria is 91 days although you can buy a short tenored bills by REPO or from the secondary market or from the Central Bank Discount Office. Treasury bills that exceed 91 days are called treasury certificates in Nigeria . They are issued for 6 months, a year or two years maximum . 

 

Sent from my iPad

On 8 Oct 2015, at 21:06, Segun Sanni therea...@yahoo.com [NaijaObserver] <NaijaO...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

‎Let me break it down. If you say the Fed Govt debt stock was N11 Trillion when Buhari took over, please note that that debt stock is made up of Govt Bonds, Treasury Bills, Unpaid pensions, debts to contractors, debts to banks, foreign debts, etc. How much of of the N11 Trillion is Govt Bonds? 
Now back to the questions which you've ignored: if pension funds, along with other investors, invest in government debt papers, that justifies your position that government has thus dipped its hands in pension funds? So when banks invest in government bonds, that means to you the government is dipping its hands in depositors' funds too? And when pension funds buy shares, it means those companies are also dipping their hands into the pension funds? 
And if this is your elementary interpretation of finance, it means the debt paper being issued by the DMO for bailout is also from the pension funds and so, President Buhari too is taking the pension funds? 
This was the philosophy upon which you wanted to collect $1,000?? 
I think even Oshiomhole would disown this your argument ‎if you try sell it to him as explanation for another one of his funny rants. 


Please note that Treasury bills have other tenors than 91 days. There are the Open Market Operations (OMO) T-bills of 21 days, 23 days, etc and there are 180-day T-bills and there are 364-day T-bills. 


Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
From: Imperial imperi...@yahoo.com [AfricanWorldForum]
Sent: Thursday, 8 October 2015 17:12
Subject: Re: {Yan Arewa} Re: [Naijadreamteamintellectuals] Re: ||NaijaObserver|| Re: [africanworldforum] On the Matter of Investing PENCOM Funds for National ...

 

You like to engage in irrelevant and avoidable arguments because the total naira denominated public debt as at the time Buhari took over government was in excess of 11trillion naira of which a large chunk was financed through the various gilts issued by the CBN Discount Offce and the Debt Management Office . 
Government all over the world increase their public sector borrowing requirements through selling various government instruments to individuals, various institutions and pension funds . Treasury bills have 91 days tenor and a large chunk of the federal government borrowing is raised using this instrument while the Treasury Certificates are for six month or one year tenor and the amount in issue have been increasing over years meaning the government debt continue to increase yearly .
There is no crime in government raising debt using money from the pension fund but it doesn't make any economic sense if the fund borrowed is used to finance recurrent expenditure . It's like an unemployed or underemployed man borrowing money to buy beer and expensive dresses instead of using same to create businesses or property that would generate future income . What will happen if the government is broke, how the various PFAs recovered the funds invested in financing expenses ? 
From this debate, a new thought has come to my mind ; henceforth fund borrowed from the pension fund institutions must be invested in infrastructure or real estate which the lender could hold in case of future default .




Sent from my iPad
.

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Segun Sanni

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Oct 9, 2015, 2:47:49 AM10/9/15
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All this one na tale by moonlight. Answer the questions posed to you! Yeyenatu! Lol.
And see in red below.

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From: Imperial imperi...@yahoo.com [AfricanWorldForum]
Sent: Friday, 9 October 2015 07:29
Cc: Imperial imperi...@yahoo.com [Naijadreamteamintellectuals]; Imperial imperi...@yahoo.com [AfricanWorldForum]; YanA...@yahoogroups.com; africanw...@googlegroups.com; NIgerianW...@yahoogroups.com; Okonkwonetworks; NaijaP...@yahoogroups.com; Ra'ayi Riga; Yahoo! Inc.; Naija...@googlegroups.com; USAAfric...@googlegroups.com; niger...@yahoogroups.com; ekiti...@yahoogroups.com; Oyo Forum State Intellectual Forum State Intellectual Forum; YanA...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: {Yan Arewa} Re: [Naijadreamteamintellectuals] Re: ||NaijaObserver|| Re: [africanworldforum] On the Matter of Investing PENCOM Funds for National ...

 

E kaabo. The recent funds to the state might be financed using additional fund raised from the Pension fund, or by Ways and Means Finance  or Stabilization Securities from banks but fund was needed urgently to prevent the states from collapse. 
What made the states to be threatened with collapse? What is the huge debts and bail out for‎? No be to pay salaries of state government workers after their planless spendings? What were the governors doing with their monthly allocations if they weren't paying salaries? Did Buhari use pension funds to finance the recurrent expenditure of Oshiomhole and the other prodigal governors?

It was compulsory for President Buhari to look for money by all means to prevent the collapse before re-strategizing which may take months after the cabinet is formed . One of the plans of this regime is to substantially reduce the size of the recurrent expenditure as percentage of our national budget  before year 2019 which Jonathan and Mrs Iweala failed to do over years . 

These are other matters. I don't want to open another debate. ‎Did Buhari dip his hands into pension funds to fund this bail out? Is the bail out for capital projects or recurrent expenditure? To finance the payment of salaries!


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