Vishnu and Shiva Lokas too are subject to return - Mahabharata

[V Subrahmanian]

In the Bhagavad Gita we have this verse:

आब्रह्मभुवनाल्लोकाः पुनरावर्तिनोऽर्जुन।

मामुपेत्य तु कौन्तेय पुनर्जन्म न विद्यते।।8.16।।   8.16

8.16 O Arjuna, all the worlds together with the world of Brahma are subject to return. But, O son of Kunti, there is no rebirth after reaching Me.

This is because even the Brahma loka is part of the Brahmāṇḍa, the created 14 lokas. 

In the Mahabharata, Ashvamedha parvan, there is a dialogue between Krishna and Yudhishthira on the ‘vaishnava dharma shāstra’:

http://bombay.indology.info/mahabharata/apps/UD/Supp14.txt

All these verses are also found in the Kumbhaghoṇam edition too:

http://sanskritdocuments.org/mirrors/mahabharata/mbhK/unic/mbhK14_sa.html

14_004_3095 विषुवे स्नपनं यस्तु मम कुर्याद्धरस्य वा

14_004_3096 अर्चनं च यथान्यायं तस्य पुण्यफलं शृणु

He who observes the vow of Viṣu, devoted to Me or Hara and worship as per the rules, hear what great merit he attains:

14_004_3097 दशजन्मकृतं पापं तस्य सद्यो विनश्यति 

14_004_3098 दशानामश्वमेधानामिष्टानां लभते फलम्

His sins of ten births vanishes at once and he attains the merit of performing ten ashvamedha sacrifices.

14_004_3099 विमानं दिव्यमारूढः कामरूपी यथासुखम् 

14_004_3100 स याति मामकं लोकं रुद्रलोकमथापि वा

Mounting the divine vimāna, with the form of his liking, with great ease, he attains to My world or Rudra loka.

14_004_3101 तत्रस्थैर्देवगन्धर्वैर्गीयमानो यथासुखम् 

14_004_3102 दिव्यवर्षसहस्राणि कोटिमेकं तु मोदते

There, he remains joyfully for very long periods of heavenly scale, being praised by the divine beings of those worlds.

14_004_3103 

ततश्चापि च्युतः कालादिह लोके द्विजोत्तमः 14_004_3104 

चतुर्णामपि वेदानां पारगो ब्रह्मविद्भवेत्

Thereafter returning to this world, he becomes a brahmin, versed in the four vedas and finally a Realized soul.

This last verse is the one where we find Krishna himself saying that those who have reached His or Shiva's loka are subject to return after the experiencing of bhoga there. 

This makes these two lokas on par with Brahma loka. From this we also get to know that these too are created lokas. 

There are also instances in the Narada and Skanda Puranas where individuals are shown returning from Vaikuntha.

In the Gāḍhārtha dīpikā of Madhusudana saraswati on the Bh.Gita, there is this comment:

मामुपेत्य पुनर्जन्म दुःखालयमशाश्वतम्।
नाप्नुवन्ति महात्मानः संसिद्धिं परमां गताः।।8.15।।

15. As a result of reaching Me they do not get rebirth which is an abode of sorrows and is impermanent, because on account of being high-souled they attain the supreme Success.

He says:

यतो महात्मानः रजस्तमोमलरहितान्तःकरणाः शुद्धसत्त्वाः समुत्पन्नसम्यग्दर्शना मल्लोकभोगान्ते परमां सर्वोत्कृष्टां संसिद्धिं मुक्तिं गतास्ते। अत्र मां प्राप्य सिद्धिं गता इति वदतोपासकानां क्रममुक्तिर्दर्शिता।

That is to say, they do not come back again, because they are mahātmänaḥ, high-souled, whose minds are devoid of the dirt of rajas and tamas, who are possessed of pure sattva, in whom has arisen perfect Knowledge; gatāḥ, who have attained; paramām, the supreme, the most superior; samsiddhim, Success, (i.e.) Liberation, at the end of enjoyment in My world.

Here, by saying that they have attained perfection 'as a result of reaching Me', it has been shown that devotees attain gradual Liberation. 

Madhusudana accepts that those who reach Krishna's Loka will attain krama mukti (just like those who go to Brahma loka attain, in mainstream Shānkara Advaita.  He says this in the 8.15 verse commentary:

Here the rule is this: Those who attain the world of Brahma through devotional practices calculated to lead to gradual Liberation, for them alone ensues Liberation along with Brahma after the emergence of perfect Knowledge in that world.

From the above we see that Madhusudana seeks to make a difference between Brahma loka and My (Krishna's) loka.  In both loka-s he agrees there is only krama mukti.  

Juxtaposing with the above, the Mahabharata statement of Krsihna that those who go to Krishna's loka after performing some rituals and vow practices go there and return and here become enlightened, we understand that Krishna loka here is no different from Brahma loka - where too there are some who go there after practicing certain upansanas - like the panchāgni vidya - and after bhoga, like in swarga, return to this world of humans. Thus we see that the Krishna (Vishnu) loka, Shiva loka and Brahma loka are all of the same category. 

Narayana Bhatta, in the Nārāyaṇīyam 90.2, says the same:

मूर्तित्रयेश्वरसदाशिवपञ्चकं यत्  प्राहुः परात्मवपुरेव सदाशिवोऽस्मिन् । तत्रेश्वरस्तु स विकुण्ठपदस्त्वमेव  त्रित्वं पुनर्भजसि सत्यपदे त्रिभागे ॥ २ ॥

In the five fold aspect* of God namely Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva , Ishwara and Sadashiva,
The fifth aspect Sadashiva is you yourself , who is the form of the divine spirit,
And also the form Ishwara also denotes you as the one who resides in Vaikunta,
And you are also the one who manifests yourself as the holy trinity in Sathya Loka 90.2

Details can be seen in this article:

https://adbhutam.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/hari-hara-abheda.narayaneeyam-f.pdf

Now, we see this idea stated in the Mahabharata:

It is on page 3343 of the 4000 odd page pdf on archive:

Nilakantha’s commentary for verses 50 and 51:

https://archive.org/details/mahabharata_nk/page/n3341/mode/2up

It says –

https://sarit.indology.info/mahabharata-devanagari.xml?root=1.5.6.30.582&view=div

सप्तैव संहारमुपप्लवानि संभाव्य संतिष्ठति जीवलोके ।

ततोऽव्ययं स्थानमनन्तमेति देवस्य विष्णोरथ  ब्रह्मणश्च  ।

शेषस्य चैवाथ नरस्य चैव देवस्य विष्णोः परमस्य चैव ॥

संहारकाले परदिग्धकायाब्रह्माणमायान्ति सदा प्रजाहि ।

चेष्टात्मनो देवगणाश्च सर्वे ये ब्रह्मलोके ह्यमराः स्म तेऽपि ॥

प्रजानिसर्गे तु स शेषकाले स्थानानि स्वान्येव सरन्ति जीवाः ।

निःशेषतस्तत्पदं वान्ति चान्ते सर्वे देवा ये सदृशा मनुष्याः ॥

Nilakantha gives good details and also says that beyond even this Brahmaloka, is the absolute mukti, the Advaitic liberation, that is not any loka.

Om Tat Sat

[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

Jaya – Vijaya suffered due to their ignorance “  in vaikunta lOka”, bhrugu was not free from his ‘ego’ even after having the darshana of vishNu with Lakshmi, Lakshmi was not free from usual ‘wife syndrome ’ 😊 vishNu too could not bear patni viyOga came back to earth in search of her, and in kailAsa, there is war between Ganesha-shiva, there is Daksha who disrespected shiva, shachi devi self-immolation, kAma dahana, and somany episodes which is ‘almost’ same as what we see in martya lOka 😊 so, these lOka-s too not free from ups and downs 😊 only best thing we can expect in these lOka-s, is sukha is bit long lasting when compared to duHkha 😊

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

BHASKAR YR

 

From: adva...@googlegroups.com <adva...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of V Subrahmanian
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 4:49 PM
To: Advaitin <adva...@googlegroups.com>; A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Subject: [advaitin] Vishnu and Shiva Lokas too are subject to return - Mahabharata

 

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Subbuji,

When Lord Krishna  was talking to Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita, he was not just an avatara of Lord Vishnu, he was the paramBrahma. Later on, after the Mahabharata war Arjuna requested Lord Krishna to repeat the Bhagavadgita and then  the Lord disclosed that he was unable to repeat that.  On the previous occasion he was the Param Brahma, and he showed his "Vishwaroopa too at that tme. Hope this short comment will help.

Regards,

skb

--

[Kalyan Chakravarthy]

>In the Mahabharata, Ashvamedha parvan, there is a dialogue between Krishna and Yudhishthira on the ‘vaishnava dharma shāstra’:

>http://bombay.indology.info/mahabharata/apps/UD/Supp14.txt

Namaste Sri Subbuji

These are only supplementary passages that are NOT part of the critical edition of the Mahabharata.

It would be very surprising if the critical edition of Mahabharata mentions that Krishna-loka is non-eternal.

The link says that these are only some insertions from Southern recension, after 14.14.17.

% After 14.14.17, S ins.:After 14.14.17,

Best Regards

[V Subrahmanian]

On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 8:07 PM Kalyan Chakravarthy <kalyanchakr...@gmail.com> wrote:

>In the Mahabharata, Ashvamedha parvan, there is a dialogue between Krishna and Yudhishthira on the ‘vaishnava dharma shāstra’:

>http://bombay.indology.info/mahabharata/apps/UD/Supp14.txt

Namaste Sri Subbuji

These are only supplementary passages that are NOT part of the critical edition of the Mahabharata.

It would be very surprising if the critical edition of Mahabharata mentions that Krishna-loka is non-eternal.

The link says that these are only some insertions from Southern recension, after 14.14.17.

Namaste Kalyan ji,

I have also said that - 

All these verses are also found in the Kumbhaghoṇam edition too:

http://sanskritdocuments.org/mirrors/mahabharata/mbhK/unic/mbhK14_sa.html

The Kumbhaghonam edition is a very carefully edited one by a Madhwa scholar over a 100 years ago and even recently a committee of scholars who have edited it contains several well known Madhwa scholars. In fact the earlier Madhwa scholar has said in his preface that he has composed a title for each chapter giving the gist therein. 

warm regards

subbu     

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[Kalyan Chakravarthy]

Namaste Sri Subbuji

For every parvan, the BORI critical edition gives complete details of the manuscripts used for the preparation of the critical edition. These manuscripts are from all parts of Indian subcontinent. 

If such information regarding the Kumbhagonam edition, is available, please share it. This edition, as far as I know, is labeled as Southern recension, so I assume it is not based on manuscripts from other regions.

Best Regards

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Kalyanji,

BORI had done the greatest damage to the Ancient Indian Literature, particularly to the text of the Mahabharata. They have done so many deletions of genuine portions from the Mahabharata. If the moderatorji permits we can discuss on that.

Sincerely,

skb

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear friends,

Mother Durga is the Ardhaangini of Lord Shiva. In her first Mahavidya-form  as Mother Kali, she created the universe. In one of her forms as Mother  Kali, she blissfully wears a garland of the skulls of her children, who attained liberation. Further, in the Tantra-shastra, Lord Krishna is the Male form of Mother Kali. Adi Shankara became one with the third Mahavidya "Shodashi" or Mother Lalita or Kamakshi.

Best wishes,

Sunil KB

--

[putran M]

Namaskaram,

Santosh-ji of our forum has written a "refutational commentary" on the Mahabharatha and its 'distortions' in BORI etc.

https://www.amazon.com/ĀGNEYĀSTRAṂ-Setting-Khāṇḍava-forest-ablaze-ebook/dp/B0BDT4DKD5

See also kindle version in amazon.in

thollmelukaalkizhu

[Kalyan Chakravarthy]

Namaste Sri Putran-ji

I see that you have "refutational commentary" and 'distortions' in quotations.

I dont know if it is intentionally done, but I agree with you.

Best Regards

[V Subrahmanian]

It should also be known that the Kumbhaghonam edition is painstakingly made by Madhwas who are Vaishnavas to the core. That they have permitted these verses speaks for itself. Just because this is Southern edition it doesn't cease to be pramana. There are other Puranas too that have said about people returning from Vishnu loka, Vaikuntha only substantiating the Mahabharata statement. 

regards 

subbu 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/fc088a67-6a7d-449f-8d20-177cb6ce883en%40googlegroups.com.

[Kalyan Chakravarthy]

Dear Sri Subbuji

You are merely reiterating what you stated earlier, without providing new information.

So, I reiterate my question. 

For every parvan, BORI has full details of the manuscripts used and the methodology adopted. Is similar information available for the Kumbhagonam edition? If you are aware of it, please post it here. 

Best Regards

[V Subrahmanian]

Dear Kalyan ji,

In the preface to the Kumbhaghonam edition:

https://archive.org/details/mahAbhArata-kumbhakoNam/mbh-kumbakonam-vol1/page/n11/mode/2up

this is stated: 

‘The states of being Brahma, Keshava, Indra, etc. granted by Rudra’

In the Mahabharata in a dialogue Vaishampayana says:

https://sanskritdocuments.org/mirrors/mahabharata/mbhK/mahabharata-k-13-sa.html

वैशम्पायन उवाच। 13-49-59x (6871) एतान्यत्यद्भुतान्येव कर्माण्यथ महात्मनः। प्रोक्तानि मुनिभिः श्रुत्वा विस्मयामास पाण्डवः॥ 13-49-59 (83443) ततः कृष्णोऽब्रवीद्वाक्यं पुनर्मतिमतांवरः। युधिष्ठिरं धर्मनिधिं पुरुहूतमिवेश्वरः॥ 13-49-60 (83444) उपमन्युर्मयि प्राह तपन्निव दिवाकरः। अशुभैः पापकर्माणो ये नराः कलुषीकृताः॥ 13-49-61 (83445) ईशानं न प्रपद्यन्ते तमोराजसवृत्तयः। 13-49-62 (83446) ईश्वरं सम्प्रपद्यन्ते द्विजा भावितभावनाः॥ 13-49-63 (83447) सर्वथा वर्तमानोपि यो भक्तः परमेश्वरे। सदृशोऽरण्यवासीनां मुनीनां भावितात्मनाम्॥ 13-49-64 (83448) ब्रह्मत्वं केशवत्वं वा शक्रत्वं वा सुरैः सह। त्रैलोक्यस्याधिपत्यं वा तुष्टो रुद्रः प्रयच्छति 13-49-65


The last verse says: Brahmatvam, Keshavatvam, Shakratvam (Indra) and the authority to govern the entire world (three worlds) along with the gods will be granted by Rudra when he is propitiated.

The above edition is a recently thoroughly revised one by a committed team which includes renowned Madhva scholars:
https://sanskritdocuments.org/…/mahabharata-k-13… //This e-text is based on the `Southern Recension’ of the Mahābhārata, edited by Krishnacharya 1906–1914. Prof. Shrinivasa Varakhedi worked on this with the support of his research team members, Prof. K. V. Ramakrishnamacharyulu, Prof. Amba Kulakarni, Prof. Prahladachar, members of MSP Bangalore and many others. Dr. Dominik Wujastyk converted the files to utf-8 IAST encoding and Patrick Mc Allister converted them into a single XML file for the SARIT project in 2012.//

The above verse/s are found in other editions which bear the NilakanTha commentary too. What is shown above is also the Kumbhakonam edition that Madhvas approve of.  

Om

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[Kalyan Chakravarthy]

Dear Sri Subbuji

From your own screenshot quotations -

1. The edition does not appear to be scholarly one

2. Several verses found here are not found in Bengal and Bombay editons

3. The editor tried to incorporate all verses from all manuscripts available to him, rather than only the common verses. This leaves room for lot of interpolations.

4. No details of Manuscripts used are provided. 

>The last verse says: Brahmatvam, Keshavatvam, Shakratvam (Indra) and the authority to govern the entire world (three worlds) along with the gods will be granted by Rudra when he is propitiated.

This is definitely not a Vishnu vs Shiva discussion, but for the record, I could not find this verse in BORI edition. 

>What is shown above is also the Kumbhakonam edition that Madhvas approve of.  

Perhaps you have mistaken me to be a Madhwa. I am not a Madhwa. I am not sure how their approval of this edition changes anything.

Best Regards

[V Subrahmanian]

On Fri, Jul 11, 2025 at 3:25 PM Kalyan Chakravarthy <kalyanchakr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sri Subbuji

Dear Kalyan ji, 

From your own screenshot quotations -

1. The edition does not appear to be scholarly one

2. Several verses found here are not found in Bengal and Bombay editons

This is not a disqualification; rather it makes this edition more pramanika.  It is also mentioned that 'important differences in the manuscripts used are given in the footnote by the editor.'  

3. The editor tried to incorporate all verses from all manuscripts available to him, rather than only the common verses. This leaves room for lot of interpolations.

That way, even the BORI is largely critiqued. 

 

4. No details of Manuscripts used are provided. 

>The last verse says: Brahmatvam, Keshavatvam, Shakratvam (Indra) and the authority to govern the entire world (three worlds) along with the gods will be granted by Rudra when he is propitiated.

This is definitely not a Vishnu vs Shiva discussion, but for the record, I could not find this verse in BORI edition. 

I mentioned this especially to show that something that is not Madhwa-friendly too is there in this book, edited by a Madhwa. In the same way, the Vishnu loka being subject to return, too, a Madhwa-unfriendly idea, is there in this edition. Also there are other puranas too which talk of people returning from Vishnu loka/Vaikuntha: Jaya Vijaya, Sudāma, etc. 

Vaishnavas have something to say: They accept a Vishnu loka within creation which allows for the above. The ones where Muktas go is 'Para/kAraNa vaikuntha.'  

regards

subbu  

[Kalyan Chakravarthy]

Dear Sri Subbuji

A pramanika edition is that which retains common verses from multiple independent manuscripts collected from all over Indian subcontinent.

Otherwise, even a single corruption in one manuscript will enter the edition. 

I think our understanding of what constitutes pramANa appears to differ vastly. 

Best Regards

[V Subrahmanian]

Dear Kalyan ji,

Upon examining, I found that the BORI 14th Parvan, Ashwamedhika, has 96 chapters. The Kumbhaghonam edition has 118 chapters. 22 Chapters are extra in the K edition.  This amounts to several hundreds of verses, all listed in the BORI supplementary page.One cannot conclude that so many chapters/verses are spurious, interpolations/insertions. 

This reminds me of Sri Sunil ji's post here where he says about the BORI 'critical edition': They have done so many deletions of genuine portions from the Mahabharata.

The verses in question are there in non-sectarian Sri Appayya Dikshitar's Anandalahari 

  https://www.ebharatisampat.in/readbook3.php?bookid=NjMyMTQwMjQ1NTEyOTI4&pageno=MjI0MjQyNjk5NTk=

Do you have an objection to the Shiva loka being non-eternal or just that the Vishnu loka is non-eternal is unacceptable to you? 

regards

subbu

   

On Fri, Jul 11, 2025 at 3:49 PM Kalyan Chakravarthy <kalyanchakr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sri Subbuji

A pramanika edition is that which retains common verses from multiple independent manuscripts collected from all over Indian subcontinent.

Otherwise, even a single corruption in one manuscript will enter the edition. 

I think our understanding of what constitutes pramANa appears to differ vastly. 

Best Regards

On Friday, 11 July 2025 at 3:41:10 pm UTC+5:30 v.subrahmanian wrote:

On Fri, Jul 11, 2025 at 3:25 PM Kalyan Chakravarthy <kalyanchakr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sri Subbuji

Dear Kalyan ji, 

From your own screenshot quotations -

1. The edition does not appear to be scholarly one

2. Several verses found here are not found in Bengal and Bombay editons

This is not a disqualification; rather it makes this edition more pramanika.  It is also mentioned that 'important differences in the manuscripts used are given in the footnote by the editor.'  

3. The editor tried to incorporate all verses from all manuscripts available to him, rather than only the common verses. This leaves room for lot of interpolations.

That way, even the BORI is largely critiqued. 

 

4. No details of Manuscripts used are provided. 

>The last verse says: Brahmatvam, Keshavatvam, Shakratvam (Indra) and the authority to govern the entire world (three worlds) along with the gods will be granted by Rudra when he is propitiated.

This is definitely not a Vishnu vs Shiva discussion, but for the record, I could not find this verse in BORI edition. 

I mentioned this especially to show that something that is not Madhwa-friendly too is there in this book, edited by a Madhwa. In the same way, the Vishnu loka being subject to return, too, a Madhwa-unfriendly idea, is there in this edition. Also there are other puranas too which talk of people returning from Vishnu loka/Vaikuntha: Jaya Vijaya, Sudāma, etc. 

Vaishnavas have something to say: They accept a Vishnu loka within creation which allows for the above. The ones where Muktas go is 'Para/kAraNa vaikuntha.'  

regards

subbu  

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[Kalyan Chakravarthy]

Dear Sri Subbuji

I request you to go through this (slightly long) document written by the editor of BORI edition, Adi Parvan.

Perhaps many things will become clear even if you may disagree with BORI.

https://archive.org/details/Sukthankar_Prolegomena_Mahabharata_Critical_Edition/mode/1up

Best Regards

[putran M]

Namaskaram Kalyan-ji,

I see that you have "refutational commentary" and 'distortions' in quotations.

I dont know if it is intentionally done, but I agree with you.

Those are words from Santosh-ji's book description in amazon. I had bought the book as a gift to someone else so had limited time to study it. But those serious about doing a stern purvapaksha of BORI should read his book.

thollmelukaalkizhu

 

Best Regards

On Friday, 11 July 2025 at 4:25:48 am UTC+5:30 putranm4 wrote: