Namaskaram,There is an argument given by Shankaracharya in intro to BG Chp 3:------------Objection: May it not be argued that the nitya-karmas have to be performed so as to avoid sin?Reply: No because the incurring of sin concerns those who are not monks. As by not performing rituals etc. connected with fire, sin accrues even to the Brahmacharins who are performers of rites and duties and are not monks, it certainly cannot be imagined similarly with regard to a sannyasin. For that matter, neither can it be imagined that sin which is a positive entity can be generated from the mere absence of nitya-karmas, because of the Upanishadic text, 'How can existence come out of non-existence?' (Ch. 6..2.2)... Therefore rites and duties are not for monks."------------I get it that this is refuting the notion of nitya-karma being necessary for sannyasins. But I am curious about the logical argument in the middle that omission of nitya-karma cannot generate a positive entity such as sin. Why would this not also apply to non-monks, for whom instead it is stipulated as "duty" and "sin accrues"?
In that context comes my question: in that case, the omission should not be a generator of sin for a brahmacharin either - only a failure to obtain chitta-shuddhi. (?)
praNAms Sri Putran prabhuji
Hare Krishna
There is stipulated karma for the brahmachAri as per smruti. So he (brahmachAri) should not skip his nitya karma like snAna, Sandhya, agnikArya, brahma yagna, bhikshAtana, guru seva etc. since all these duties (vidhi-s) have to be followed as he is wearing the yagnOpaveeta and has taken the initiation to do saNdhya (gAyatri and brahmOpadesha). These nitya karma-s if not done then there will be pratyavAya dOsha (applicable to all three Ashrami-s) if done don’t get puNya says scriptures. Whereas sanyasi is into the nivrutti mArga and he is pursuing the jnana mArga. Since for getting the jnana, karma is not mandatory in this Ashrama, as sanyasi has to leave the yajnOpaveeta, agni and even veda-s (kaTha shruti says so), for him there is no nitya karma as such. But if I am right he has to follow sannyasa Ashrama vihita karma-s like praNavOpAsana, bhikshAtana aparigraha etc.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
Bhaskar YR
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My 2 cents
Not doing Nityakarma is like NOT taking bath
What happens Physically when you don't take bath ? You
become (physically) dirty, because dirt accumulates on the
physique by itself and since periodic cleansing (Physical
bath) is not done, more and more physical dirt / physical residue
accumulates. What will happen IF you don't take bath for 5 years
(say). Skin disease, heat etc.etc, depending on your current state
of health.
ditto with Not doing nityakarma, but on a psychological plane
Subject to where and how you live (not doing nitya karma /
anushtana, either not bathing at all, or not doing anushtana at
all) would / should have a similar effect, but psychologically
regards
Subu
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These nitya karma-s if not done then there will be pratyavAya dOsha (applicable to all three Ashrami-s) if done don’t get puNya says scriptures.
Whereas sanyasi is into the nivrutti mArga and he is pursuing the jnana mArga. Since for getting the jnana, karma is not mandatory in this Ashrama, as sanyasi has to leave the yajnOpaveeta, agni and even veda-s (kaTha shruti says so), for him there is no nitya karma as such. But if I am right he has to follow sannyasa Ashrama vihita karma-s like praNavOpAsana, bhikshAtana aparigraha etc.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
Bhaskar YR
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Namaste Putran jiThe idea of akaraNE pratyavAyaH (a mImAmsA idea)- not doing nityakarmas leads to pratyavAya doSha can be understood as follows. The very word pratyavAya is explained differently by Sri Shankara who contrasts it with the wrong underlying reasoning employed by mImAmsA. Shankara instead applies satkaaryavaada and explains in taiitiriya bhAShya and BG3 bhAShya the Vedantic explanation of akaraNE pratyavAyaH.1. For both the monk as well as the non-monk, there is no question of any fresh pApa karma being produced as a direct result of non-performance of nityakarmas which will supposedly have to be experienced later as pApakarma phala (the way the mImAmsakas imagine, wrongly, as it turns out).2. However there is a technical difference in the situation of the two cases viz., sannyAsis and non-sannyAsis.There is a daily packet of pApa phala which is by default unfolding and manifesting as everything from waking up with a catch in the back, to a bad day at work or some unavoidable arguments/ unpleasantness with one's better half or with fellow brahmacharis (if in a gurukula) etc etc. It is said that birth as a human being is for those jivas who have both pApas and punyas in roughly equal measure (wide inequality notwithstanding). The performance of regular nityakarma mitigates or atleast partially neutralizes these pApa karmas before they express as the daily dose of pApa karma phala. This neutralization need not necessarily be on a day to day basis but may well be a more general case of neutralization of unfolding pApa karma phalas. ( Btw, plz note that this logic applies to both mumuxus as well as non-mumuxus and so it's not only about chitta shuddhi alone (which can be called the (internal) mental condition) but also adRShta durita kShaya - it influences the outer situations which get presented to us due to our karmas unfolding, as well. .The sannyAsi is mandated an alternative approach and has no nitya karmas like Sandhya etc.. Even for him, the pApa karmas he is born with, do unfold. And as per the ashrama Dharma, he is to do the pranava japa, guru seva (since we are only looking at vividiShaa cases), he gets some durita kShaya automatically even if he does not care for it. And then more importantly, his very GYAna pursuit of SMN is all about seeing through the bluff of doership and enjoyership. So shAstra being coherent does not ask him to "do" this or "do" that and make his life more comfortable/enjoyable, since the very ashrama of sannyasa is to get out of the doership/enjoyership trap. Naturally the usual nityakarmas are not enjoined for him.Kindly excuse my informal presentation since I did not quite references.Om
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Namaste Putran jiThe first line is only by way of abhyupetya-vAda adopted by the acharya, i,e, going along with the line of thought adopted by the opponent "for argument's sake' and showing that even in that case, 'sannyasis don't incur sin by non-performance'. (Since even mImAmsakas agree that sannyAsis dont have adhikAra for vaidika rituals.)I only reiterated the idea in the second line viz., the overarching idea of "something cannot come out of nothing". That is why the seemingly unconnected passage Ch 6.2.2 (a topic which has nothing to do with karma performance or non-performance.), is quoted by the acharya to clinch the issue and assert the siddhAnta paxa that there is no fresh pApa karma produced for anyone. The abhyupetya vAda statement ("even if we grant that non-performance will produce fresh pApa karma, it will not apply to sannyasIs .") is not the complete statement of siddhAnta paxa. Had it been so, the need to quote Ch 6.2.2 would not even arise.OmRaghavOn Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 9:47 PM putran M <putr...@gmail.com> wrote:Namaskaram Raghav-ji,Yes, your explanation is more in line with what I thought after reading the acharya's middle argument. However, the other part of the acharya's statement does not seem to negate the notion of papa karma for omission by non-monks:
"No because the incurring of sin concerns those who are not monks. As by not performing rituals etc. connected with fire, sin accrues even to the Brahmacharins who are performers of rites and duties and are not monks, it certainly cannot be imagined similarly with regard to a sannyasin. For that matter, neither can it be imagined that sin which is a positive entity can be generated from the mere absence of nitya-karmas, because of the Upanishadic text, 'How can existence come out of non-existence?' (Ch. 6..2.2)... Therefore rites and duties are not for monks."
While he seems to negate the possibility of sin for monks, he also seems to be accepting that there is sin of omission for non-monks.So, what you are saying is that this "sin" the acharya is talking of is different from the way the purva-mimamsakas imagined it. Though the acharya seems to agree with the notion of sin here, you are saying he means in the sense of omission of what is needed to neutralize papa karmaphalas, obtain chitta shuddhi, or influence outer situations (karma unfolding) in a positive manner - which will lead to further suffering for the ajnani. (Something like Subu-ji said in the other mail.)This is a subtle but significant difference from the direct reading of those words. When you can, do give some direct references where the acharya or sampradaya makes this distinction explicit.thollmelukaalkizhu
On Tue, Aug 2, 2022 at 11:43 AM Raghav Kumar <raghav...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Namaste Putran jiThe idea of akaraNE pratyavAyaH (a mImAmsA idea)- not doing nityakarmas leads to pratyavAya doSha can be understood as follows. The very word pratyavAya is explained differently by Sri Shankara who contrasts it with the wrong underlying reasoning employed by mImAmsA. Shankara instead applies satkaaryavaada and explains in taiitiriya bhAShya and BG3 bhAShya the Vedantic explanation of akaraNE pratyavAyaH.1. For both the monk as well as the non-monk, there is no question of any fresh pApa karma being produced as a direct result of non-performance of nityakarmas which will supposedly have to be experienced later as pApakarma phala (the way the mImAmsakas imagine, wrongly, as it turns out).2. However there is a technical difference in the situation of the two cases viz., sannyAsis and non-sannyAsis.There is a daily packet of pApa phala which is by default unfolding and manifesting as everything from waking up with a catch in the back, to a bad day at work or some unavoidable arguments/ unpleasantness with one's better half or with fellow brahmacharis (if in a gurukula) etc etc. It is said that birth as a human being is for those jivas who have both pApas and punyas in roughly equal measure (wide inequality notwithstanding). The performance of regular nityakarma mitigates or atleast partially neutralizes these pApa karmas before they express as the daily dose of pApa karma phala. This neutralization need not necessarily be on a day to day basis but may well be a more general case of neutralization of unfolding pApa karma phalas. ( Btw, plz note that this logic applies to both mumuxus as well as non-mumuxus and so it's not only about chitta shuddhi alone (which can be called the (internal) mental condition) but also adRShta durita kShaya - it influences the outer situations which get presented to us due to our karmas unfolding, as well. .The sannyAsi is mandated an alternative approach and has no nitya karmas like Sandhya etc.. Even for him, the pApa karmas he is born with, do unfold. And as per the ashrama Dharma, he is to do the pranava japa, guru seva (since we are only looking at vividiShaa cases), he gets some durita kShaya automatically even if he does not care for it. And then more importantly, his very GYAna pursuit of SMN is all about seeing through the bluff of doership and enjoyership. So shAstra being coherent does not ask him to "do" this or "do" that and make his life more comfortable/enjoyable, since the very ashrama of sannyasa is to get out of the doership/enjoyership trap. Naturally the usual nityakarmas are not enjoined for him.Kindly excuse my informal presentation since I did not quite references.Om
On Mon, 1 Aug 2022 at 9:22 pm, putran M<putr...@gmail.com> wrote:
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praNAms Sri Putran prabhuji
Hare Krishna
Is it valid to do arthapatti here and say that in a brahmin, the upanayana samskara causes some change in the sukshma sharira after which nityakarma becomes necessary and omission becomes dosha. Likewise when a fit (with chitta-shuddhi) person undergoes the sannyasa samskara (?) under a guru, his sukshma sharira undergoes another change which effectively neutralizes the need to do nityakarmas (of grihastas, brahmacharis)?
Ø I would like to look at it this way. When a student get his admission to a school / college thenceforth he has to wear the uniform, regularly attend classes, doing the homework/project work etc. Just by wearing the uniform, shoes etc. daily travelling to school etc. do not bring any change in his intelligence level but admission to the educational institution means he has to live a disciplined life. Likewise, when the boy undergoes the upanayana saMskAra he has to observe the disciplined routine. Infact during upanayana saMskAra, Achaarya gives the series of instructions to vatu (brahmAchAri) what are all do’s and donts in brahmacharya Ashrama and at gurukula. And while wearing the yajnOpaveeta, in the saMkalpa vatu would say mama brahmacharya Ashrame vihita nitya, naimittika karmAnushTAna yOgyatA siddhartham etc. So, when the vatu become brahmachAri he has to follow Ashrama vihita karma in the course of settling the debt of Rishi ( Rishi rUNa) it will be through brahma yagna sva-shAkha vedAdhyayana, Rishi tarpaNa during upAkarma etc. And these karma-s need to be done without any phalApeksha (karma phala tyAga) and by doing so gradually he develops vairagya and when the time is ripe he may take karma sannyasa (sannyasa deeksha) also to reach the highest goal. So, in short Ashrama bound duties are shAstra vidhi and we have to follow it to get rid of rUNa traya i.e. deva ruNa, Rishi ruNa and pitru ruNa. Since mumukshu with teevra vairagya has taken the karma tyAga rUpa sannyasa(vividisha) as per shAstra vidhi he does not have to observe any nitya, naimittika, kAmya & pratishedha karma-s except what is prescribed in that Ashrama.
It seems mantra-magical but the logic supports shastra pramana to explain why only a brahmacharin/grihasta has certain nityakarmas (not doing which is dosha and not merely an impediment to chitta-shuddhi) and not a child or a sannyasi.
The acharya has said that absence of nityakarma does not generate sin by itself. That would mean that whether it generates sin or not depends on the subtle body of the jiva in question. In the case of a sannyasi or a child, the subtle body must have undergone some change that negates the possibility of sin accrual upon omission of sandhya type nityakarmas.
Ø As said above since nitya naimittika karma-s are shAstra vidhi for all the three Ashramites ( in vAnaprastha also there are some karma-s to be observed and purpose of it is deha dandane) we have to observe it and there is no other way to go ( or looking for some other easy alternatives). If not done naturally it leads to dOsha as we are violating the dictum of scriptures. Karma vidhi in veda-s not only for chitta shuddhi but also for pApa kshaya and puNya saMchayana. Though for paNcha yagna-s there is no conspicuous fruit ( phala) said in shruti, these yagna-s have their own significance in karmAnushTAna.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
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