'Avidya lesha' ('samskāra') admitted by the Upanishads, Bh.Gita and Shankara

[V Subrahmanian]

There are many instances across the Upanishads where an Aparoksha Jnani is seen to be teaching, discussing, etc. the Atma vidya proving that a post-Jnana life is indeed there.  Here are a few such instances, though not exact references are given here:

1. At the end of the Prashnopanishad, the six aspirants who have now become Jnani-s, as per Shankara, offer their gratitude to Sage Pippalada, their Guru, for having bestowed that Jnana to them: tvam hi nah pitā (thou are our father)..for having taken us to the other shore of samsara.  Shankara says, they worshiped the Guru with flowers and obeisance. He says the Guru is father because he has given birth to the brahma shariram and put an end to the taking of repeated births. 

 

2. The Kenopanishad has the statement where an aspirant, undergoing the Atma vidya teaching, goes out for a while and returns to the class to declare with humility his enlightenment. 

3. This Upanishad also says in the Yaksha episode that Indra got the Jnanam through Umā which he further taught the other devata-s.

4. The Brihadaranyaka 1.4.10 is a very clear statement of gaining Aham Brahmasmi jnana and attaining sarvatmatva. 

5. In the same upanishad Yajnvalkya confers on Janaka 'abhayam vaik Janaka prāpto'si'  - Janaka, you have attained the Fearless Brahman. 

6. Yajnavalkya, himself an enlightened teacher, engages in discussions, teaches the Brahma vidya to many and at the end renounces home and hearth. 

7. In the Chandogya 7th ch. Sanatkumara, the enlightened sage, instructs Narada who becomes enlightened. 

8. There is the famous Vāmadeva case of him declaring his enlightenment from the mother's womb.    

9. The Ishavasya upanishad gives expression to the Universal Oneness vision of the Jnani. 

The Bhagavadgita in several chapters gives the traits of a Jnani: sthitaprajna, bhakta, guṇātīta and so on. 

The Gita 4th chapter says: One must seek a Jnani and put questions on Atman, etc. be submissive and serve him. A Tattvadarshi (aparoksha jnani) will impart the knowledge to such a one.  

Shankara while elaborately commenting on all the above, has of his own accord said, sometimes even giving unmistakable expression to his own enlightenment:  Brahma sutra bhashya: 4.1.15:

अपि च नैवात्र विवदितव्यम् — ब्रह्मविदा कञ्चित्कालं शरीरं ध्रियते न वा ध्रियत इति । कथं हि एकस्य स्वहृदयप्रत्ययं ब्रह्मवेदनं देहधारणं च अपरेण प्रतिक्षेप्तुं शक्येत ? श्रुतिस्मृतिषु च स्थितप्रज्ञलक्षणनिर्देशेन एतदेव निरुच्यते । तस्मादनारब्धकार्ययोरेव सुकृतदुष्कृतयोर्विद्यासामर्थ्यात्क्षय इति निर्णयः ॥ १५ ॥

Shankara says here:

A Jnani will have the aparoksha anubhava of (1) being Brahman and (2) at the same time be in a body too. No one can deny this, continues Shankara, 'This alone is spoken of as Sthitaprajna lakshana in the shruti and smritis.'

The corresponding verse in the Bh.Gita for no.2 above is: सर्वकर्माणि मनसा संन्यस्यास्ते सुखं वशी।
नवद्वारे पुरे देही नैव कुर्वन्न कारयन्।।5.13।।  5.13

The embodied man of self-control, having given up all actions mentally, continues happily in the town of nine gates, without doing or causing (others) to do anything at all.

warm regards

subbu

[V Subrahmanian]

Please note this correction in this sentence:

// 5. In the same upanishad Yajnvalkya confers on Janaka 'abhayam vaik Janaka prāpto'si'  - Janaka, you have attained the Fearless Brahman. //

The word 'vaik' is to be read as vai, without the k.  

regards 

subbu

[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms Sri Subbu prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

So according to you any dialogue between jnAni and ajnAni in the shruti-smruti-purANa, is the proof to prove that the jnAni who is giving upadesha is doing so due to his avidyA lesha / avidyA saMskAra…Krishna teaching geeta to arjuna and doing so due to his avidyA lesha/saMskAra, yama teaching the secrets of death to Nachiketa doing so due to avidyA saMskAra in yamadharma rAja, shiva explaining something noble to pArvati in purANa-s is due to shiva’s avidyA, shankara-ramaNa-jagadguru-s teaching their disciples about brahma vidyA is due to their respective avidyA vAsana /lesha/ saMskAra.  I donot want to give more examples as yourself provided more examples in your mail 😊  I am really surprised ‘socalled’ traditional vidvAns holding these examples to prove paramArtha jnAni’s avidyA lesha..this is really news to me. 

 

OTOH, bhAshya at its top of the voice clearly saying in the jnAni there is no trace of rAga-dvesha, there is no sukha-duHkha, there is no vipareeta pratyaya since he has the realization that there was / is / will ever be brahman only and there is NO avidyA in him whatsoever.  In that realization whereis the question of avidyA where is the question of its lesha/saMskAra ??  Talking about avidyAlesha is as good as saying :  I know there is no snake in rope but still I can hear the snake’s hissing sound.  Looking at the jnAni-s activities, we the common ignorant people attach katrutvaM, bhOktrutvaM etc.  to him. But he as the paramArtha jnAni who has already realized that in his svarUpa he is brahman, has the firm conviction that he is akartru, abhOktru.  See geeta bhAshya 4.22. 

The paramArtha jnAna and the sashareeratvaM is his own experience in the depth of his heart, others i.e. we the ajnAni-s should not pass the judgement on it by attributing the avidyAlesha.  Nowhere in the geeta bhAshya it has been said by Lord sthita prajna is influenced by his own avidyA lesha when he is engaged in activities.  And in sUtra bhAshya also where bhAshyakAra insists that even after saMyak jnAna there would be continuation of activities for the jnAni through indriya-s, never hints it is due to avidyAlesha or avidyA vAsana or avidyA saMskAra. 

 

By the way, you know, as per mUlAvidyAvAdins, the mUlAvidyA is not even avidyA saMskAra 😊

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[V Subrahmanian]

On Tue, Sep 16, 2025 at 9:35 AM 'Bhaskar YR' via advaitin <adva...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

praNAms Sri Subbu prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

So according to you any dialogue between jnAni and ajnAni in the shruti-smruti-purANa, is the proof to prove that the jnAni who is giving upadesha is doing so due to his avidyA lesha / avidyA saMskAra…Krishna teaching geeta to arjuna and doing so due to his avidyA lesha/saMskAra, yama teaching the secrets of death to Nachiketa doing so due to avidyA saMskAra in yamadharma rAja, shiva explaining something noble to pArvati in purANa-s is due to shiva’s avidyA, shankara-ramaNa-jagadguru-s teaching their disciples about brahma vidyA is due to their respective avidyA vAsana /lesha/ saMskAra.  I donot want to give more examples as yourself provided more examples in your mail 😊  I am really surprised ‘socalled’ traditional vidvAns holding these examples to prove paramArtha jnAni’s avidyA lesha..this is really news to me. 

Dear Bhaskar ji,

You have not understood the fundamental concept pertaining to Avidya lesha/samskara.  If you had, you would not be linking it to Krishna and Shiva. It is correct to link it to Yama dharmaraja because he himself says in the Upanishad that he had performed great karma to attain this post of Yama. 

 

OTOH, bhAshya at its top of the voice clearly saying in the jnAni there is no trace of rAga-dvesha, there is no sukha-duHkha, there is no vipareeta pratyaya since he has the realization that there was / is / will ever be brahman only and there is NO avidyA in him whatsoever.  In that realization whereis the question of avidyA where is the question of its lesha/saMskAra ??  Talking about avidyAlesha is as good as saying :  I know there is no snake in rope but still I can hear the snake’s hissing sound.  Looking at the jnAni-s activities, we the common ignorant people attach katrutvaM, bhOktrutvaM etc.  to him. But he as the paramArtha jnAni who has already realized that in his svarUpa he is brahman, has the firm conviction that he is akartru, abhOktru.  See geeta bhAshya 4.22. 

The 4.22 bhashya says this: आत्मनः कर्तृत्वाभावं पश्यन्नैव किञ्चित् भिक्षाटनादिकं कर्म करोति, लोकव्यवहारसामान्यदर्शनेन तु लौकिकैः आरोपितकर्तृत्वे भिक्षाटनादौ कर्मणि कर्ता भवति । स्वानुभवेन तु शास्त्रप्रमाणादिजनितेन अकर्तैव ।

Nobody has questioned the Jnani's kartrutva/bhoktrutva abhava anubhava/buddhi. In fact the above sentence is proof of the Jnani available still in the body and that the bhikshATanAdi is happening due to Avidyalesha/samskara. In fact what Shankara has said about a Jnani in the above bhashya, he has said for himself in the BSB 4.1.15   कथं हि एकस्य स्वहृदयप्रत्ययं ब्रह्मवेदनं देहधारणं च अपरेण प्रतिक्षेप्तुं शक्येत ? How indeed can anyone question the fact that the Jnani has the akarta abhokta brahma bhaava in his heart and at the same time inhabiting a body?

You are actually challenging what Shankara has said above in no unmistakable terms. 

 

The paramArtha jnAna and the sashareeratvaM is his own experience in the depth of his heart, others i.e. we the ajnAni-s should not pass the judgement on it by attributing the avidyAlesha.  Nowhere in the geeta bhAshya it has been said by Lord sthita prajna is influenced by his own avidyA lesha when he is engaged in activities.  And in sUtra bhAshya also where bhAshyakAra insists that even after saMyak jnAna there would be continuation of activities for the jnAni through indriya-s, never hints it is due to avidyAlesha or avidyA vAsana or avidyA saMskAra. 

 

By the way, you know, as per mUlAvidyAvAdins, the mUlAvidyA is not even avidyA saMskAra 😊

Yes, mulavidya is not a sasmkara, but it is the one responsible for the remaining of samskara. In other words, the samskara is the lesha of that mula avidya which has been made nirmUla by aparoksha jnana. 

warm regards

subbu

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "advaitin" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to advaitin+u...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/AM7PR06MB6625CD7857DB71B485430C878414A%40AM7PR06MB6625.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com.

[Bhaskar YR]

praNAms Sri Subbu prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

• Bit free today at office, hence more posts. 

 

You have not understood the fundamental concept pertaining to Avidya lesha/samskara. 

 

• You have not made it clear who avidyA lesha is possible in the paramArtha jnAni when he has the realization that he is akartru-abhOktru in all the three times.  avidyA does not have any parts and it is not a solid thing to say after effacement of avdiyA some lesha /traces will continue (like ashes after burning the wood) nor it has any capacity to create saMskAra even after it itself completely eradicated.  We cannot give dviteeya Chandra, digbhrAnta examples to prove avidyAlesha as it is the consolation answers provided by bhAshyakAra to satisfy the ignorants who are still seeing the ‘activities’ of paramArtha jnAni.  Whereas his true nature of sashareeratvaM and its reality etc. has been cleared by bhAshyakAra himself in samanvayAdhikaraNa bhAshya. 

 

If you had, you would not be linking it to Krishna and Shiva. It is correct to link it to Yama dharmaraja because he himself says in the Upanishad that he had performed great karma to attain this post of Yama. 

 

Ø     Even Krishna, vishNu and shiva is not the paramArtha rUpa of paramAtman, is it not??  If that is the case, then there is no need to differentiate paramArtha jnAni and shiva-vishNu, especially when brahma jnAni himself realizing that shivOhaM.  By the way what is the difference between svarUpa jnAna of the paramArtha jnAni and paramArtha tattva behind the shiva-vishNu??  Is it something different to say shiva-vishNu donot have avidyA but paramArtha jnAni even though knowing that he is parabrahman will be having rAga-dvesha like ordinary ajnAni-s?? 

 

The 4.22 bhashya says this: आत्मनः कर्तृत्वाभावं पश्यन्नैव किञ्चित् भिक्षाटनादिकं कर्म करोति, लोकव्यवहारसामान्यदर्शनेन तु लौकिकैः आरोपितकर्तृत्वे भिक्षाटनादौ कर्मणि कर्ता भवति । स्वानुभवेन तु शास्त्रप्रमाणादिजनितेन अकर्तैव ।

 

Nobody has questioned the Jnani's kartrutva/bhoktrutva abhava anubhava/buddhi.

 

• Please note he is akartru/abhOktru even before realization, that is the reason why the jnAna fetch him the knowledge of, nitya, Shuddha, buddha mukta paramArtha jnAna which is his own svarUpa and which is absolutely free from rAga-dvesha / shOka-mOha.

 

In fact the above sentence is proof of the Jnani available still in the body and that the bhikshATanAdi is happening due to Avidyalesha/samskara.

 

• Due to avidyA lesha is your fabrication to the bhAshya sentence there is room for this conclusion in this bhAshya vAkya.  See the bhAshya vAkya : लौकिकैः आरोपितकर्तृत्वे भिक्षाटनादौ कर्मणि कर्ता भवति , it is only bystanders who attribute these anishta-s to HIM, but he is absolutely free from all this.  For that matter don’t you see that parameshwara is responsible for activities of srushti, etc.? Are not the avatAra purusha-s like rAma, Krishna etc. doing or engaging themselves in vigorous Karma? Do you still argue that they are doing so due to their respective avidyAlesha or with rAga dvesha??  No, that is not siddhAnta drushti, though actions may be taking place in the body of ā jnAni or avatAra purusha-s because of the prArabdha or leela, they fully aware that he is completedly unattached to them. It is only this conviction which is jnAna. But others, who may not be able to elevate themselves to this lofty description of the jnAni would think that jnAni is still experiencing the prArabdha, suffering from rAga-dvesha, if not suffering / experiencing at least he is however having the rAga-dvesha due to his avidyA lesha etc.   But he does not think so, because shruti assures that : vidvAn sa ehaiva brahma yadyapi dehavAniva lakshyate sa bhahmaiva san brahmApyeti.  And you cannot paste the rAga-dvesha to brahman, can you?? 

 

In fact what Shankara has said about a Jnani in the above bhashya, he has said for himself in the BSB 4.1.15   कथं हि एकस्य स्वहृदयप्रत्ययं ब्रह्मवेदनं देहधारणं च अपरेण प्रतिक्षेप्तुं शक्येत ? How indeed can anyone question the fact that the Jnani has the akarta abhokta brahma bhaava in his heart and at the same time inhabiting a body?

 

Ø     I think we have discussed this innumerable times in our earlier discussion about jnAni’s own set of BMI, how this needs to be reconciled with siddhAnta vAkya that is discussed in detail in samanvayAdhikaraNa bhAshya. 

 

You are actually challenging what Shankara has said above in no unmistakable terms. 

 

Ø     No actually I am challenging the vyAkhyAna which unwarrantedly pastes the rAga-dvesha to paramArtha jnAni in the name of avidyA lesha / saMskAra by diluting the some bhAshyavAkya-s.  I have very valid reason to challenge this stand since bhAshyakAra in an unambiguous terms explained and denied the continuation of kAma-klesha for an enlightened person.  Desire is the ONLY motive for all actions and that being absent for a person who has realized adviteeya brahman there can be no more rAga-dvesha in him.  See the bruhad Upanishad and bhAshya : when all the desires residing in one’s heart have been got rid of, then the mortal being becomes immortal and attains brahman here in this very life.  Just as the cast-off slough of a snake would be lifeless in an ant-hill, so also does the body of the enlightened person lie there, AND HE IS NOW (REALLY) BODILESS, THE PRAANA, BRAHMAN ALONE, THE LIGHT OF PURE CONSCIOUSNESS ALONE. 

 

Yes, mulavidya is not a sasmkara, but it is the one responsible for the remaining of samskara. In other words, the samskara is the lesha of that mula avidya which has been made nirmUla by aparoksha jnana. 

 

Ø     Is paramArtha jnAni aparOksha jnAni or parOksha jnAni??  If his jnAna is aparOksha how can there be a place for avidyA lesha/saMskAra??  Is there any possibility to say two different things can occupy the same place at same time to argue in the jnAni there is both jnAna and ajnAna in the form of saMskAra / lesha at the same time!!??