Tattvamasi - 02 (the nectar from different trees and honey)

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste,

Next we look at the example of the nectar from different trees and honey that occurs in ChAndogya 6.9.

Here, uddAlaka AruNi invokes this example to show how differences seen in the waking state are not seen in the deep sleep state when the jIva has resolved himself into his higher nature as Sat.

The opponent uses this example to argue that the difference in the nectars from different flowers is a real one, and similarly the difference between different jIvas and the jIvas and paramAtma is also real.

The siddhikAra reveals the true import of the example - https://youtu.be/aFJxKYJxZLA

The mantras under discussion - 6.9.1 - 6.9.3

यथा सोम्य मधु मधुकृतो निस्तिष्ठन्ति नानात्ययानां वृक्षाणाꣳ रसान्समवहारमेकताꣳ रसं गमयन्ति ॥ १ ॥

ते यथा तत्र न विवेकं लभन्तेऽमुष्याहं वृक्षस्य रसोऽस्म्यमुष्याहं वृक्षस्य रसोऽस्मीत्येवमेव खलु सोम्येमाः सर्वाः प्रजाः सति सम्पद्य न विदुः सति सम्पद्यामह इति ॥ २ ॥

त इह व्याघ्रो वा सिंहो वा वृको वा वराहो वा कीटो वा पतङ्गो वा दꣳशो वा मशको वा यद्यद्भवन्ति तदाभवन्ति ॥ ३ ॥

Regards,

Venkatraghavan

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste,

After looking at the examples of the hawk and the string and the the nectar and honey, today we consider the examples of the rivers and ocean and the tree and its branches that are associated with the third and fourth time that the teaching "tattvamasi" occurs in the Chandogya upaniShad.

The siddhikAra argues that these examples are also compatible with a teaching of advaita, and therefore it cannot be argued that the reading of the sentence has to be atattvamasi, conveying difference, as opposed to tattvamasi, conveying identity.

https://youtu.be/CUechxodCZk

Regards,

Venkatraghavan

[V Subrahmanian]

The Advaitin community are thankful to Sri Venkataraghavan for this series of his study of the analogies involved in the Upanishadic teaching of the Tattvamasi mahavakya.  it is not easy to fathom the intricacies of the polemical arguments underlying this study.  Our following this series will help enhance our appreciation of the Tattva involved in these analogies.

regards

subbu 

On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 5:37 PM Venkatraghavan S <agni...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste,

After looking at the examples of the hawk and the string and the the nectar and honey, today we consider the examples of the rivers and ocean and the tree and its branches that are associated with the third and fourth time that the teaching "tattvamasi" occurs in the Chandogya upaniShad.

The siddhikAra argues that these examples are also compatible with a teaching of advaita, and therefore it cannot be argued that the reading of the sentence has to be atattvamasi, conveying difference, as opposed to tattvamasi, conveying identity.

https://youtu.be/CUechxodCZk

Regards,

Venkatraghavan

On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:34 PM Venkatraghavan S <agni...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste,

Next we look at the example of the nectar from different trees and honey that occurs in ChAndogya 6.9.

Here, uddAlaka AruNi invokes this example to show how differences seen in the waking state are not seen in the deep sleep state when the jIva has resolved himself into his higher nature as Sat.

The opponent uses this example to argue that the difference in the nectars from different flowers is a real one, and similarly the difference between different jIvas and the jIvas and paramAtma is also real.

The siddhikAra reveals the true import of the example - https://youtu.be/aFJxKYJxZLA

The mantras under discussion - 6.9.1 - 6.9.3

यथा सोम्य मधु मधुकृतो निस्तिष्ठन्ति नानात्ययानां वृक्षाणाꣳ रसान्समवहारमेकताꣳ रसं गमयन्ति ॥ १ ॥

ते यथा तत्र न विवेकं लभन्तेऽमुष्याहं वृक्षस्य रसोऽस्म्यमुष्याहं वृक्षस्य रसोऽस्मीत्येवमेव खलु सोम्येमाः सर्वाः प्रजाः सति सम्पद्य न विदुः सति सम्पद्यामह इति ॥ २ ॥

त इह व्याघ्रो वा सिंहो वा वृको वा वराहो वा कीटो वा पतङ्गो वा दꣳशो वा मशको वा यद्यद्भवन्ति तदाभवन्ति ॥ ३ ॥

Regards,

Venkatraghavan

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[VIJAY KUMAR]

Hari om all

Have been reading the commentaries. And my pranams to all including Sadaji who is a proponent of Vedanta. Also thanks to Ramachandran ji for adding me to the group. 

This above mentioned comment made me to write few lines. The Maha Vakya "Tat Tvam Asi" in a way wrong also and correct also. 

Which way it is wrong? Let us take the first word 'Tat'. Means 'That'. Generally, in daily life, what we use the word 'That' for? That which is far, which is away, which is remote, Paroksha, from you. The self, the truth, is not that category. 

In fact it is your own self, and so it is so near to you. "Near" is also wrong word. Isavasya says, "Tat doore, Tad Antike". So that way 'Tat" is used incorrectly. 'Tvam Asi" is okay, right usage

Now let us see, why it is right? The word, 'Tat' is used from Vyavaharik - Transactional, plane. In that sense it is right. Because the seeker, mistakingly, feels that, it is "That" , and is far away, remote, and Paroksha, and all. So to make him understand, the teacher is using 'Tat'. Though in other words he is mixing up to 'Satta' s. Satta means 'Plane'

Let me borrow Sada jis quote here, "If I am Brahman, why I am suffering?" The question seems okay for a layman. But it is incorrect in two ways. What are the two ways?

First of all, there is no "if" in Vedanta. I will tell you that in a different story.  There is no question "if I am Brahman". You are Brahman, whether you agree or not. And that is your true nature

Secondly, the questioner is mixing two 'Satta" s.  Two different planes. You can not mix planes. Like Dream and Waking, we know that it is entirely different. Brahman is Paramarthik satta - Absolute Plane, and 'Suffering' is in Vyavaharic Satta -Transactional Plane. We all know that in Brahman, no suffering or enjoying. in fact, no experience. Just Be. Uses like 'In that experience' or 'In that state" are incorrect. 

So  'Tat Tvam Asi" is upadesa Vakya.  Sorry to bring this up, with my limited knowledge, this is what I think is. 

Many of you are learned and Advanced Vedantins, and I am very blessed to be in this group

Hari om and Pranams to all

Vijay Kumar

On Friday, September 11, 2020, 08:07:06 AM EDT, Venkatraghavan S <agni...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste,

After looking at the examples of the hawk and the string and the the nectar and honey, today we consider the examples of the rivers and ocean and the tree and its branches that are associated with the third and fourth time that the teaching "tattvamasi" occurs in the Chandogya upaniShad.

The siddhikAra argues that these examples are also compatible with a teaching of advaita, and therefore it cannot be argued that the reading of the sentence has to be atattvamasi, conveying difference, as opposed to tattvamasi, conveying identity.

https://youtu.be/CUechxodCZk

Regards,

Venkatraghavan

On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:34 PM Venkatraghavan S <agni...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste,

Next we look at the example of the nectar from different trees and honey that occurs in ChAndogya 6.9.

Here, uddAlaka AruNi invokes this example to show how differences seen in the waking state are not seen in the deep sleep state when the jIva has resolved himself into his higher nature as Sat.

The opponent uses this example to argue that the difference in the nectars from different flowers is a real one, and similarly the difference between different jIvas and the jIvas and paramAtma is also real.

The siddhikAra reveals the true import of the example - https://youtu.be/aFJxKYJxZLA

The mantras under discussion - 6.9.1 - 6.9.3

यथा सोम्य मधु मधुकृतो निस्तिष्ठन्ति नानात्ययानां वृक्षाणाꣳ रसान्समवहारमेकताꣳ रसं गमयन्ति ॥ १ ॥

ते यथा तत्र न विवेकं लभन्तेऽमुष्याहं वृक्षस्य रसोऽस्म्यमुष्याहं वृक्षस्य रसोऽस्मीत्येवमेव खलु सोम्येमाः सर्वाः प्रजाः सति सम्पद्य न विदुः सति सम्पद्यामह इति ॥ २ ॥

त इह व्याघ्रो वा सिंहो वा वृको वा वराहो वा कीटो वा पतङ्गो वा दꣳशो वा मशको वा यद्यद्भवन्ति तदाभवन्ति ॥ ३ ॥

Regards,

Venkatraghavan

[Raman Muthukrishnan]

Maha vakya is one that highlights the brahma jiva aikyam in the upanishad.

Further that sentence should be seen in context.

It is continuation  of ... the brahman that has been described so far, ... that (brahman) is you.

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From: 'VIJAY KUMAR' via advaitin <adva...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2020 8:46:22 PM
To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; adva...@googlegroups.com <adva...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [advaitin] Tattvamasi - 03 (the rivers and ocean) / 04 (the tree and its branches)

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/advaitin/817812155.1112575.1599837382367%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste,

We had looked at the examples of rivers and ocean and the tree and its branches previously. In this session, we look at two further examples - the seed and the banyan tree and the salt in water associated with the fifth and sixth time that the teaching "tattvamasi" occurs in the Chandogya upaniShad.

The siddhikAra establishes the purpose served by each of the examples, and why there is no incompatibility with abheda being the message conveyed through these sections. The purpose of the example of the seed and the banyan tree is to illustrate how it is possible for nirvisheSha brahman to be the cause of this world of infinite variety. The purpose of the salt in water example is to convey how it is possible for the cause of the entire universe to be accessible through one pramANa (shAstra), even when it is beyond the reach of another pramANa (pratyaksha).

https://youtu.be/ypLmpZNs7FE

Regards,

Venkatraghavan

[Venkatraghavan S]

Namaste,

Concluding talk in the series dealing with the nine examples associated with the teaching of tattvamasi in the Chandogya Upanishad.

https://youtu.be/r6Wx23iQ-kM

In summary:

1) The hawk and the string - https://youtu.be/QoiEcJhWlV8

2) The honey from different trees - https://youtu.be/aFJxKYJxZLA

3) The rivers and ocean - https://youtu.be/CUechxodCZk

4) The tree and its branches - same link as 3 above

5) The seed and the banyan tree - https://youtu.be/ypLmpZNs7FE

6) The salt in the water - same link as 5 above

7) The traveller from Gandhara - https://youtu.be/r6Wx23iQ-kM

8) The dying jnAni - same link as 7 above

9) The thief and the unique test of truth - same link as 7 above.

Regards

Venkatraghavan

[V Subrahmanian]

Many thanks Venkat ji for making this wonderful series.  Often one glosses over the analogies so much so that they are completely forgotten.  The focus would seem to be the Tat tvam asi teaching.  Your efforts have kindled our interest in revisiting the analogies.

warm regards

subbu 

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