Namaste.
Reg << The issue as I understand is whether a duality of cognition can be admitted in spite of and alongside the knowledge of nondual Self >>,
Shruti is the authority in this regard and it has adequately addressed the issue. It lists the experiences of Sages Vamadeva, Trishanku (in TU), the jnAni who exclaims **ahamanna….ahamannAdah…** in TU etc which address the issue unambiguously. Such a duality of cognition is admitted. Where then is the doubt?
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The latter position seems a stretch to insist on (or comprehend) but I don't know how else to retain that all duality is adhyasa (not mithya) where adhyasa is eliminated in jnana.
to insist on as the only standpoint that constitutes truth. The "traditional" side (as I understand) accepts the paramarthika standpoint but does not negate absolutely (as being only adhyasa) the vyavaharika standpoint.
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Namaskaram.
There is no vyAvahArika or pAramArthika viewpoint of a jnAni in my understanding. The nature of a jnAni is as follows in my understanding.
For an ajnAni, the *I* sense identifies itself very strongly with the antahkaraNa or BMI. I am not elaborating as it is unnecessary. For a jnAni, there are two states possible. In one state, his *I* sense completely dissociates itself from the antahkaraNa or BMI and *identifies* itself with Brahman. This is his state of nirvikalpa samAdhi. There is no perception of duality. But there is really no *experiential anubhava* either in such a state. At other times, the *I* sense of the jnAni identifies itself with the antahkaraNa or BMI, but such identification is very very weak. He perceives duality no doubt, but with very little association with the duality. His understanding is one of sarvAtmabhAva and he enjoys great Ananda in this state. Experiences of Sages Vamadeva/Trishnku /Sthitaprajna etc fall in this category. This is the experiential jnAna phala of a jnAni. He can and does interact with the world in such a state, and is perhaps what you have termed vyAvahArika standpoint. Since the identification with BMI is very weak, there is no resultant karma phala associated with any of his actions. Hence there is no rebirth for him.
This in brief is my understanding.
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praNAms Sri Putran prabhuji
Hare Krishna
I am however not clear whether I represented the swamiji or SSS position correctly on it. That's why I just wrote of the two approaches generally, as per my understanding.
Ø Let us keep aside what Sri SSS saying on this. Let us check what bhAshyakAra himself says (right from horse mouth…though I don’t know why it is said like this to emphasis on authority 😊) on the jnAni’s drushti AFTER realization. Kindly refer Sutra bhAshya 4-1-13 : trishvapi kAleshu akartrutva abhOktrutva svarUpaM bramhAhamasmi, netaH pUrvamapi kartA bhOktA vAhamAsaM, nedAneem naapi bhavashyatkAle iti brahmavidavagacchati, eva meva cha mOksha upapadyate. ( kindly see any English translation at your convenience).
Ø
Ø And this should not gives us the impression that duality including jnAni’s deha, buddhi, ahamkara, this jagat of nAma rUpa vanishes in thin air after the dawn of this mOksha jnana!! bhAshyakAra very beautifully explains this in sUtra bhAshya 2-1-13 how even though bhOktru and bhOgya cannot become one another but it is nothing different from brahman. Gives here example of water, foam, bubble, wave etc. and now it is not different from water. Please see the bhAshya bhAga : evaM lOke drushtatvAt, tathA hi samudrAdudakAtmanaH ananyatvepi tadvikArANAM phena-veechee-taranga-budbudhaadeenaaM etaretara vibhAgaH…………….. na cha bhOktru bhOgyayOritaretarabhAvApattirna cha parasmAd brahmaNOnyatvaM bhavishyati ( kindly see any English translation of this bhAshya vAkya, and share your thoughts on that.).
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
மரத்தை மறைத்தது மாமத யானை
மரத்தில் மறைந்தது மாமத யானை
பரத்தை மறைத்தன பார்முதல் பூதம்
பரத்தில் மறைந்தன பார்முதல் பூதமே
திருமூலர் 8-21
http://www.thevaaram.org/thirumurai_1/s ... rtLimit=21
(In a wooden statue of an elephant, the view of just the elephant and just the wood, is possible for the respective viewer who may focus of either of these where the other remains in the background. Similarly the pancha bhuta prapancha 'conceals' the world and the proper view is where the prapancha resolves in Brahman.)
Shankara has used the simile in his Svatmanirupanam:
दन्तिनि दारुविकारे दारु तिरोभवति सोऽपि तत्रैव |
जगति तथा परमात्मा परमात्मन्यपि जगत्तिरोधते || 28 ||
svAtmanirUpaNam (Page 94) Adi Sankara
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=F6i ... ru&f=false
This comparison was brought out by Maha Periava in his discourse on Adi Sankara (Dec 23, 1957) published in Acharya's Call (Part 1) (Page 115-119)
Regards
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In both cases, Consciousness is the foundation, the sathya. In paramarthika, there is naught else but Consciousness; in vyavaharika, this Consciousness is realized as Dreamer having capacity to dream. The latter is not asat but it is mithya as it stands negated in the higher knowledge/standpoint.
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praNAms Sri Satyan prabhuji
Hare Krishna
I was about to write about nAsha, bAdha & laya in Advaita with regard to existence and continuance of duality. Thanks for explaining it.
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
Bhaskar YR
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Compiled some thoughts. Attaching as a file.
namaste,
now that the dust has settled could some one help me with knowing
between the two schools of thoughts bhamati and vivarna, which of them is more prevalent?
which of these are the 4 mutts aligned to?
(excuse me if what I am stating isnt right)
thanks
Raman
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praNAms Sri Putran prabhuji
Hare Krishna
ONLY advaitins would agree to these type of observations / conclusions 😊
"Advaita, Visishtadvaita, and Dvaita are true at different states of mind. Accept all. When we are experiencing the Absolute, it is Advaita. When we come down, Visishtadvaita is true. Still down, it is Dvaita.
Ø Dvaitins, our tattvavAdins immediately jump on our neck after seeing them in the third best pedestal 😊 As per them Advaita ends its query at jeeva level and makes the wrong conclusion by twisting and turning the upanishadic siddhAnta. So as per them it is lowest level of philosophical enquiry or not vaidika enquiry at all !! 😊
Again, Brahman and Shakti are non-different. When creation, etc. goes on, it is Shakti at work. When it is One only, it is Brahman.
When the jnani comes down from the highest state he sees the universe, true; but as Brahman. This is the Vijnani state, a state after Advaita experience." (from pg 67 in Insights into Vedanta Tattvabodha, Swami Sunirmalananda RKM)
Ø Then what is that absolute Advaita experience before descending to ‘see’ jagat as brahman?? I think the answer is NS!!...is it not??
Shankara: Creation is real upto Self-realization. It is not unreal like the hare's horn. It has some practical reality. Creation proceeds from Brahman and merges in Him. Brahman uses His maya to create.
Ø Yes shankara says jagat is not like ‘snake’ on the rope, in chAndOgya bhAshya.