What is the glue that binds Brahman and Maya together?
V Subrahmanian
H S Chandramouli
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V Subrahmanian
Namaste.Listened to the talk. What exactly is he equating gold with. Is it NirguNa Brahman?
Or is it Iswara ? Or is it mAyA ?. At 1-22, he mentions * It is like gold *. But what does that * It * refer to ? NirguNa Brahman ?
mAyA ? Iswara ? At 1-52, he states that gold plus mAyA becomes the Creator !!!
At 1-50, he terms mAyA itself as nAma rUpa vyavahAra.
He does not say mAyA takes on different nAma rUpa which constitute different objects and lead to vyavahAra. At 2-23, he asks * Can you show me the gold separately apart from the form *. Gold is always the unmanifest material cause which can be perceived ONLY in a manifest form, namely as associated with a form. That is a limitation of the sense organ of perception. At 2-46, he says there is only one and that is *You*. This , in reference to gold as being one only while ornaments in different forms are multitudinous.The talk in my view is very unsatisfactory. I do appreciate there are many who differ. Just presenting a contrary understanding.RegardsRegards--On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 1:18 PM V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com> wrote:--
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Ram Chandran
To understand the Brahman, we with the presence of ignorance perceive the world of actions and reactions of actors and we attribute them as the Leela of Ishwara! At the Vyavarika level, we see the Brahman through the World and the world and the Brahman glued by Maya! We need to reprogram our mind using the purification process (Yoga) to remove the ignorance! When the purification is complete, we are no more with the spell of Maya and recognize the Truth of the Brahman!
If we get confused by any analogy, I want to assure you that we are not alone!!
With my warm regards,
Ram Chandran
H S Chandramouli
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 10:57 PM Sudhanshu Shekhar <sudhans...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Namaste Subramanian ji.
>
> //Yes, he is equating gold with NB.//
>
> How is it in tune with VedAnta? Gold is the material cause of ornaments.
> Nirgun Brahman is not the material cause. Material cause is MAyA which is
> adhyAropita in Nirguna Brahman leading to adhyAropita material causality of
> mAyA-vishishTa-Brahman.
>
Dear Sudhamshu ji,
We do accept vivartopAdAna for Brahman. The Chandogya Upanishad 6th
chapter, with the same gold, etc. analogies, the BSB 2;1;14 are all about
this.
regards
subbu
>
> Regards.
>
> On Wed, 25 Oct, 2023, 10:49 pm V Subrahmanian via Advaita-l, <
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V Subrahmanian
V Subrahmanian
সপ্ত Rishi
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H S Chandramouli
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H S Chandramouli
সপ্ত Rishi
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Bhaskar YR
praNAms
Hare Krishna
Well what bhagavn bhashyakara says is the only interpretation that matters,and he seems to deviate a lot from you.
Ø Well what he may be implying is whenever there is a talk on brahman with relation to jagat and srushti it is about apara brahman, upAsya brahman and whenever there is talk about realization it is about parabrahman/nirupAdhika nirguNa brahman / jneya brahman (bhAshyakAra himself says this somewhere in bhAshya). In that sense I guess he is saying gold (jagat kAraNa brahman) is NOT parabrahman 😊 Just guessing and ready to take scolding from Sri Chandramouli prabhuji 😊
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
V Subrahmanian
Namaste.
Reg // The Chandogya 6th chapter gives three analogies: clay, gold and iron - all three to equate with Nirguna Brahman //,No. It is not to equate with NirguNa Brahman. I had recently posted my understanding of this under the heading Clay-Pot illustration.
Bhaskar YR
praNAms Sri Subbu prabhuji
Hare Krishna
- Whenever there is match of your thoughts with mine I would like to join my voice :
The Upanishad starts with the question: Knowing what will everything be known? Since Shvetaketu did not know the answer, Uddalaka started replying to his own question by giving the three analogies: yathA somya....tathaa. The yathA - tathA is to show that they are analogies for the question on hand.
- Moreover, shruti’s basic statement is : sadeva Soumya idamagra AsidekamevAdviteeyaM which establishes whatever said subsequently with regard to this adviteeya satyam should be traced back to that ekaM evaM. IOW, even though there is no variety in content but variety is not independent of content 😊 janmAdasya yataH it is that through which the creation and the cycle of dissolution of world happens. And we have to accept it because that shruti which says brahman is nirguNa, niravayava, nivishesha etc. same shruti saying ekameva kAraNaM for the jagat is that ‘same’ brahman, we cannot apply ardha kukkuti nyAya here to take something and reject something else. The objections like since brahman is having no limbs, having no attributes, having no mind so he cannot be the cause etc. sUtra bhAshya 2.1.adhikaraNa 10 have the exclusive discussion about it. bhAshyakAra here clarifies that brahman;s inherent power is such that it can create universe without any auxiliaries 😊
- Hari hari hari Bol!!!
- bhaskar
H S Chandramouli
The Upanishad starts with the question: Knowing what will everything be known? Since Shvetaketu did not know the answer, Uddalaka started replying to his own question by giving the three analogies: yathA somya....tathaa. The yathA - tathA is to show that they are analogies for the question on hand. And the Eka vijnaena sarva vijnanam' in Advaita is the knowing of Nirguna Brahman. That is how the entire Chandogya 6th chapter is explained on the six tatparya lingas to teach Nirguna Brahman.Gauadapada says: the clay, etc. analogies uses for teaching srishti is to help the aspirant understand the aikyam with Brahma tattva which has no bheda.
Several yuktis are made use of in Upanishads to convey the final truth. I am copying below from VivaraNa Prameya Samgraha of Swami Vidyaranya
Yuktis for sambhAvana of Brahman cognition, varNaka 1 (shown as varNaka 5 in Prof shastri text ) Sutra 2, PDF page 734 Book page 705, covered in talk 164 by Sri Mani Dravid Shastri
// ननु एवं सति अनुमानच्छायोपजीवियुक्तीनामपि ब्रह्म गोचरो न स्यात् , सत्यमेवं तथापि शब्दावगम्ये ब्रह्मणि संभावनाबुद्धिहेतवो युक्तयः । तथाहि - मृदादिदृष्ट्न्तैरुपादानव्यतिरेकेण कार्यस्याऽनिरुपणादद्वितीयता संभाव्यते । स्फटिकलौहित्यदृष्टान्तेनाऽऽत्मनि कतृत्वदेरारोपितत्वम्, प्रतिबिम्बदृष्टान्तेन जीवब्रह्मैक्यम्, रज्जुसर्पदृष्टान्तेन ब्रह्मव्यतिरिक्तप्रपच्ञस्य स्वतन्त्र्याभावः, घटाकाशदृष्टान्तेनाऽसङ्गताद्वारेण विशद्धाद्वितीयप्रत्यगात्मता, तप्तपरशुदृष्टान्तेन जीवब्रह्मैक्यसत्यता ॥ //
// nanu evaM sati anumAnachChAyopajIviyuktInAmapi brahma gocharo na syAt , satyamevaM tathApi shabdAvagamye brahmaNi saMbhAvanAbuddhihetavo yuktayaH | tathAhi - mRRidAdidRRiShTntairupAdAnavyatirekeNa kAryasyA.anirupaNAdadvitIyatA saMbhAvyate | sphaTikalauhityadRRiShTAntenA.a.atmani katRRitvaderAropitatvam, pratibimbadRRiShTAntena jIvabrahmaikyam, rajjusarpadRRiShTAntena brahmavyatiriktaprapach~nasya svatantryAbhAvaH, ghaTAkAshadRRiShTAntenA.asa~NgatAdvAreNa vishaddhAdvitIyapratyagAtmatA, taptaparashudRRiShTAntena jIvabrahmaikyasatyatA || //
Translation by Suryanarayana Shastri (PDF page 447 Book Page 439) << Now this being the case, Brahman would not be the sphere even of argumentations, which live under the shadow of inference. True it is thus. Yet, argumentations are the causes of the cognition of possibility in respect of Brahman to be known from verbal testimony. It is thus. Since, by example of clay etc, it is demonstrated that there is no product different from the material cause, non-duality is made possible ; by the example of the redness in the crystal, the imposedness of agency etc on the Self (is made possible) ; by the example of the reflection, the oneness of the jiva and Brahman (is made possible) ; by the example of the rope-snake, the non-existence of independence for the world as different from Brahman (is made possible) ; by the example of pot ether, (there is made possible), through the channel of being unattached, (Brahman) being the pure, non-dual, inner Self ; by the example of the red hot axe, (there is made possible) the reality of the oneness of the jiva and Brahman //.
Regards
Ram Chandran
H S Chandramouli
On Fri, Oct 27, 2023 at 12:50 AM Ram Chandran <ramvch...@gmail.com> wrote:
// Any analogy is useful like the Pole that was used by the athlete to jump over the pole in a Pole vault field event.
There are number of frameworks available to understand the truth of advaita and the path to our understanding varies by framework, If we fixed our mind with one framework, then our mind refuse to accept the same truth coming out of other frameworks. With an open mind and sincere efforts, we can see the unity in the diversity
The bottom line is how to use the analogy and also prepare ourselves to discard the analogy when the understanding is complete!!! //
Apparently this was in response to my earlier post
// On Thursday, October 26, 2023 at 4:30:46 AM UTC-4 hschand...@gmail.com wrote:
Reg //Yes, he is equating gold with NB.//,
Equating inert substance with Chaitanya ?? Cannot recall a similar sentiment from any other advaitic text //.
The single analogy of Clay-Pot in Ch Up Ch 6 may be considered. It has been used, through different interpretations, for establishing their own SiddhAntAs like BrahmapariNAma VAda by Sri Bhartruprancha (prior to Sri Bhagavatpada), Vivarta VAda by Sri Bhagavtpada, and BhedAbheda VAda by Sri Bhaskaracharya (after Sri Bhagavatpada, in refutation of Vivarta VAda). Sri Bhaskaracharya summarizes his view as follows.
// कार्यरूपेण नानात्वम् अभेदःकारणात्मना ।
हेमात्मना यथाऽभेदः कुण्डलाद्यात्मना भिदा ॥ //
// kAryarUpeNa nAnAtvam abhedaHkAraNAtmanA |
hemAtmanA yathAbhedaH kuNDalAdyAtmanA bhidA || //
Many others can also be cited like VishishtAdvaita (Sri ramanujacharya), Dvaita (Sri Madhwacharya), ShuddhAdvaita (Sri Vallabhacharya) etc.
It is hence essential that analogies must be followed along with the appropriate interpretations. Otherwise one could unwittingly land in a different SiddhAnta itself. That was what I was trying to point out in my post.
Regards
sreenivasa murthy
The facts emerging out from the above mantras :-
Brahman is sarvam.
Atman is sarvam.
Hence Atman is Brahman.
Next
aham is sarvam.
So “I” am ATMAN , I am Brahman.
I AM HERE and NOW.
MY lakShana is satyam , jnAnam and anantam.
I am “ananMtam”
I am ““prapaMcOpaSamam”.
I am “ advaitam”.
I am “ ETERNAL TIMELESS NOW”
can there be a world
along with me
*
V Subrahmanian
न त्वम् एतस्मिन् सर्वतःसम्प्लुतोदकस्थानीये सम्यग्दर्शने वर्तसे ॥ १८ ॥ …BGB 3.1 8
same as above
यतः सर्वं कर्म समस्तम् अखिलम् अप्रतिबद्धं पार्थ ज्ञाने मोक्षसाधने सर्वतःसम्प्लुतोदकस्थानीये परिसमाप्यते अन्तर्भवतीत्यर्थः ‘यथा कृताय विजितायाधरेयाः संयन्त्येवमेवं सर्वं तदभिसमेति यत् किञ्चित्प्रजाः साधु कुर्वन्ति यस्तद्वेद यत्स वेद’ (छा. उ. ४ । १ । ४) इति श्रुतेः ॥ ३३ ॥ BGB 4.33. Shankara also cites the Chandogyopanishat that compares the highest marked dice (in a chess-like game) to the attainment of a Jnani.
स खिल्यभावस्तव कार्यकरणभूतोपाधिसम्पर्कभ्रान्तिजनितः महति भूते स्वयोनौ महासमुद्रस्थानीये परमात्मनि अजरेऽमरेऽभये शुद्धे सैन्धवघनवदेकरसे प्रज्ञानघनेऽनन्तेऽपारे निरन्तरे अविद्याजनितभ्रान्तिभेदवर्जिते प्रवेशितः ; Brihadaranyaka bhashya 2.4.12 Ocean
परस्य महासमुद्रस्थानीयस्य ब्रह्मणः अक्षरस्य अप्रचलितस्वरूपस्य ईषत्प्रचलितावस्था अन्तर्यामी ; अत्यन्तप्रचलितावस्था क्षेत्रज्ञः, यः………BUB3. 8.12 Ocean
एवं सर्वमिदं द्वैतं परमार्थसत्यमेव जलतरङ्गादिस्थानीयम् , समुद्रजलस्थानीयं तु परं ब्रह्म BUB 5.1.1 The entire world of dvaita is akin to waves and Brahman the ocean.
अथेदानीमबीजात्मकं परमार्थस्वरूपं रज्जुस्थानीयं सर्पादिस्थानीयोक्तस्थानत्रयनिराकरणेनाह — नान्तःप्रज्ञमित्यादिना । Mandukya bhashya 7 Brahman is akin to the rope and the three states of waking, etc. is akin to the snake superimposed on it.
तस्मादेवाकाशाद्घटादयः सङ्घाता यथा उत्पद्यन्ते, एवमाकाशस्थानीयात्परमात्मनः पृथिव्यादिभूतसङ्घाता आध्यात्मिकाश्च कार्यकरणलक्षणा रज्जुसर्पवद्विकल्पिता जायन्ते Mandukya karika bhashya
Infinite Space is Brahman from which the world and bodies emerge.
परस्य परमार्थसतो महाकाशस्थानीयस्य घटाकाशस्थानीयो जीवः सदा सर्वदा यथोक्तदृष्टान्तवन्न विकारः, नाप्यवयवः । Mandukya karika bh.
Brahman is the infinite space and jiva's are like the pot spaces.
In all the above cases some or the other insentient entity is compared with Brahman.
Regards
subbu
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Ram Chandran
Namaskar:
Subbuji thanks for sharing the scriptural references and they are profound and useful.
Advaita Vedanta applies analogies to explain the complexities that come with the understanding the Nirguna and Nirupa Brahman! The additional complexities include making inference on the Truth at the Parmathika level using the Vyavaharika level experience. We all have different levels of experience at the Vyavaharika level based on our beliefs and incomplete knowledge (with the presence of ignorance!) The ongoing discussions confirm why we couldn’t agree wholeheartedly. No one needs to feel that are not able to accept every details provided using the analogies.
I find the analogies to be quite useful at the minimum distinguishing between the concepts that often use in Advaita. I classify the analogies into three categories:
Brahman the infinity and Jivas the finite concept:
Ocean and Waves
Space and space inside the pot bounded by the pot
Sunlight and its reflections on the mirror of specific shape
Brahman the Substratum
Gold and Golden ring
Clay and Clay Pot
What is Mythia?
Dream State and Waking State (Dream Analogy)
Rope and Snake analogy
Post and ghost analogy
I find it personally very useful for me to understand the concepts of Advaita using the analogies.
Please feel free to add and subtract what I have stated here and you are welcome make appropriate corrections
With my warm regards,
Ram Chandran
V Subrahmanian
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H S Chandramouli
Namaste.
Chaitanya, as associated with mAyA, is of three kinds ; Shuddha Chaitanya, mAyA upahita Chaitanya and mAyA vishishta Chaitanya.
// तावानस्य महिमा ततो ज्यायंश्च पूरुषः । पादोऽस्य सर्वा भूतानि त्रिपादस्यामृतं दिवीति ॥ ६ ॥ //
// tAvAnasya mahimA tato jyAyaMshcha pUruShaH | pAdo.asya sarvA bhUtAni tripAdasyAmRRitaM divIti || 6 || //
Bhashya explains
// तस्य अस्य पादः सर्वा सर्वाणि भूतानि तेजोबन्नादीनि सस्थावरजङ्गमानि, त्रिपात् त्रयः पादा अस्य सोऽयं त्रिपात् ; त्रिपादमृतं पुरुषाख्यं समस्तस्य गायत्र्यात्मनो दिवि द्योतनवति स्वात्मन्यवस्थितमित्यर्थ इति ॥ //
// tasya asya pAdaH sarvA sarvANi bhUtAni tejobannAdIni sasthAvaraja~NgamAni, tripAt trayaH pAdA asya so.ayaM tripAt ; tripAdamRRitaM puruShAkhyaM samastasya gAyatryAtmano divi dyotanavati svAtmanyavasthitamityartha iti || //
Translation (Swami Gambhirananda) // of this latter all beings are the foot, – all such beings as light, water, food and the rest, both animate and inanimate. –He is the three-footed,-- that which has three feet, is immortal, called Purusha, in its Heaven—resting in the Heaven of what orms the entire GAyatri ; it is called *Heaven* *dyaus*== because it is resplendent. The meaning is that it rests within itself // .
All the three, namely Shuddha Chaitanya, mAyA upahita Chaitanya and mAyA vishishta Chaitanya are addressed as Brahman in the Scriptures and Bhashya. They have to be understood contextually. Shuddha Chaitanya is NirguNa Brahman. When mAyA upahita Chaitanya and mAyA vishishta Chaitanya are elaborated, which of the two - mAyA or Chaitanya – is intended also needs to be understood contextually.
My understanding of the analogies is as follows.
(NirguNa) Brahman (Shuddha Chaitanya) and Brahman (mAyA upahita Chaitanya) / Brahman (mAyA upahita Chaitanya) and sAkshi (अंतह्करणावच्छिन्नचैतन्य aMtahkaraNAvachChinnachaitanya)
Space and space inside the pot bounded by the pot
Brahman (mAyA upahita Chaitanya) and (individual) jIva through antahkaraNa
Reflection in a mirror or redness in a crystal
AntahkaraNa and Reflection/Redness together as jIva
अयःपिण्ड (ayaHpiNDa) ; Redhot Iron Ball
Brahman (mAyA upahita Chaitanya) and (multiplicity of) jIvAs
Reflection of Sun or Moon in water contained in different pots OR redness of a flower appearing in different clear crystals
Brahman (mAyA upahita Chaitanya) and mAyA, (Brahman as substratum of mAyA)
Rope-Serpent illustration
Brahman (mAyA vishishta Chaitanya) and Jagat
Gold-Ornament or Clay-Pot (Reference is to mAyA part only), Also Ocean and Waves.
RegardsNamaskar:
Subbuji thanks for sharing the scriptural references and they are profound and useful.
Ram Chandran
Bhaskar YR
praNAms Sri Ramachandran prabhuji
Hare Krishna
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and they are valuable and useful. I am glad to see more active participation. This subject is quite important and I hope to see more to participate and share their views.
Ø Since you called for more participation with regard to analogies, I am just curious to know what makes you and Sri Sada prabhuji to object the analogy of Chair and chair leg by Sri Putran prabhuji?? Why do you think it is an inappropriate analogy to establish Advaita ??
H S Chandramouli
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Ram Chandran
Namaskar dear Bhaskar Prabhuji:
I am glad to see you question and here is my brief answer. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Gold and Golden Ring Analogy
Gold has an independent existence and doesn’t depend on the ring to exist. if Gold is removed then ring doesn’t exist. Gold is the substratum within the Golden ring.
In the chair and leg analogy, Chair existence depends on the existence of legs. With no legs, the chair is no more chair but it becomes a plain board! The leg can exist without any chair and we sometime use the legs from the broken chair to support something else! Chair can’t be called a substratum for leg!
As a matter of fact Wood and Chair is a good analogy and parallel to Gold and Golden ring!
Sadaji’s analysis provides more details on the analogy of Gold and golden ring.
Critical analysis of vedAnta paribhAShA Part XXXXIII
https://www.advaita.org.uk/discourses/knowledge/transformation.htm
With my warm regards,
Ram Chandran
H S Chandramouli
Namaste Sri Ram Chandran Ji.
Reg // Gold and Golden Ring Analogy
Gold has an independent existence and doesn’t depend on the ring to exist. if Gold is removed then ring doesn’t exist. Gold is the substratum within the Golden ring //,
And
// Sadaji’s analysis provides more details on the analogy of Gold and golden ring //.
There have been several discussions earlier on the topic of Clay-Pot and Gold-Ring illustrations in which myself and Sri Sadananda Ji also participated. The main issue being whether they represent परिणाम (pariNAma) or विवर्त (vivarta) modiications. Myself and Sri Sadananda Ji had opposite views. Ultimately we decided to agree to disagree.
Since then, the website Advaitasharada also covered a rare manuscript, a vyAkhyAna on PanchapAdika titled वक्तव्यकाशिका (vaktavyakAshikA) by Sri उत्तमज्ञयति (Uttamaj~nayati). He is stated to be a disciple of the 5th Acharya of Sringeri Peetham, nanottamacharya (910-954 AD). The topic we were concerned with finds an explicit mention in this text. Clay-Pot illustration is covered instead of Gold-Ring illustration. But the reasoning holds good in respect of both.
Now that you have raised this topic again, I thought it may be appropriate to present that elaboration here, for whatever it is worth. It is not my intention to open up the whole issue again.
In respect of the relationship between Brahman and Jagat, PanchapAdika observes as below
// अतो यदवष्टम्भो विश्वो विवर्तते प्रपञ्चः, तदेव मूलकारणं ब्रह्मेति सूत्रार्थः ॥ //
// ato yadavaShTambho vishvo vivartate prapa~nchaH, tadeva mUlakAraNaM brahmeti sUtrArthaH || //
Translation // Thus, Resting upon what Jagat (Prapancha) transfigures (vivarta), That Root Cause is Brahman, is the meaning of the sUtra //.
This is elaborated in the vyAkhyAna वक्तव्यकाशिका (vaktavyakAshikA) as under.
// ब्रह्मैव जगदाकारेण परिणमते मृदिव घटाकारेणेति शङ्कां व्यावर्तयति -
विवर्तत इति । //
// brahmaiva jagadAkAreNa pariNamate mRRidiva ghaTAkAreNeti sha~NkAM vyAvartayati - vivartata iti | //
Translation // By the word विवर्तत (vivartata) , the doubt, that Brahman itself is transformed (परिणाम pariNAma) into the form of Jagat similar to Clay turning into the form of Pot, is dispelled //.
This confirms two understandings. One, Clay-Pot relationship is one of परिणाम (pariNAma) and not विवर्त (vivarta). And second, transformation of Brahman into Jagat is not one of परिणाम (pariNAma) but is one of विवर्त (vivarta).
The vyAkhyAna continues..
// एकस्य सत्वादितितत्त्वादप्रच्युतस्य पूर्वरूपविपरीतासत्यानेकरूपापत्तिर्विवर्तः । एकस्य पूर्वरूपपरित्यागेन सत्यरूपान्तरापत्तिः परिणाम इति विभागो द्रष्टव्यः । //
// ekasya satvAdititattvAdaprachyutasya pUrvarUpaviparItAsatyAnekarUpApattirvivartaH | ekasya pUrvarUpaparityAgena satyarUpAntarApattiH pariNAma iti vibhAgo draShTavyaH | //
Translation // Without deviating from the Principle (Axiom) of One Truth (Reality), changing into several false forms different from the previous Form (Truth) is termed र्विवर्त (vivarta). Renouncing the single former true form and transforming into different true forms is termed pariNAma. This is the distinction //.
Regards
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Ram Chandran
The discussion with the article, "Parinama and Vivarta: Is there any real distinction?" may be quite useful with respect to what you have posted.
The article acknowledge that parinama-vada and vivarta-vada both recognize changes in the cause in producing the effects.
For the Vivarta-vada,the changes are not real but only in appearances (forms and names. The Parinama-vada on the otherhand assumes that the changes are real.
The author points out that Sankara's advaita rejects Parinama-vada but accepts the Vivarta-vada stating that all changes that we observe are only in appearance but not real!
with my warm regards,
Ram Chandran
https://www.medhajournal.com/parinama-and-vivarta/
Bhaskar YR
praNAms Hare Krishna
Do we have something like this with regard to various ‘nyAyaya’-s talked in PTB?? Like stulArundhati, ardhakukkuti, pradhaanamalla nibarhaNa nyAya etc. ??
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar
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On Behalf Of H S Chandramouli
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Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] ***UNCHECKED*** Re: Re: [advaitin] What is the glue that binds Brahman and Maya together?
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H S Chandramouli
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