what is abhava?

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Michael Chandra Cohen

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Sep 15, 2024, 6:02:24 AM9/15/24
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Mimamsa speaks of 4 kinds of abhava - prior, subsequent, mutual and absolute. Aren't these all material abhava-s?  When SSSSji refers to abhavarupa avidya, which abhava is he referring to? 

Sudhanshu Shekhar

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Sep 16, 2024, 10:11:36 AM9/16/24
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Namaste Michael ji. Raghav ji.


Mimamsa speaks of 4 kinds of abhava - prior, subsequent, mutual and absolute. Aren't these all material abhava-s?  When SSSSji refers to abhavarupa avidya, which abhava is he referring to?

This is the question I had been asking to SSSS Ji's followers. And I was getting no response. Bhaskar ji said that it is some eka-rUpa abhAva, which is meaningless.

SugamA explains that it is jnAna-prAk-abhAva.

So, suppose I say I have Russian-language-ajnAna, it is like prior-non-existence-of Russian-language-jnAna. When I learn Russian, this prior-non-existence will be removed for ever.

So, ajnAna can be prior-non-existence-of-Brahma-jnAna in my buddhi. And when I get Brahma-jnAna, this prior-non-existence will be gone for ever.

Or, ajnAna can be prior-non-existence-of-jnAna-sAmAnya.

He follows it up by saying that this jnAna-prAk-abhAva is anubhava-gamya and not known through pramANa. Basically, SSSS ji is saying that this jnAna-abhAva is known by sAkshI.

Traditional teachings reject both of these. You are well aware of how we reject abhAva-hood of ajnAna. 

Further, prAk-abhAva is rejected in siddhAnta with great clarity and logic. If you go through it, you will be immediately convinced. I, for example, am completely convinced. SSSS ji would be certainly aware of that. So, he should have rebutted that while proposing jnAna-prAk-abhAva. But he has not.

Regarding, sAkshi-jnAna, abhAva being a paroksha-vishaya cannot be vishaya of sAkshI-jnAna which is by definition aparoksha-jnAna and hence has aparoksha-vishaya.

Regards.
Sudhanshu Shekhar.

Sudhanshu Shekhar

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Sep 16, 2024, 10:52:59 AM9/16/24
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Namaste Raghav ji.

//Does what you said about atyantAbhAva alone being acceptable in siddhAnta(as in the case of mithyA rope-snake and tucchaM horns of a hare entities),still stand?//

Yes. 

However, there are two views in atyanta-abhAva as well.

One, atyanta-abhAva is adhikaraNa-swarUpa.

Second, atyanta-abhAva is different from adhikaraNa.

The first one is the preferred view.

In second view also, for pAramArthika-abhAva, it is necessarily adhikaraNa-swarUpa. For only vyAvahArika-abhAva, we accept it to be atyanta-abhAva only (and not the other three type) and different from adhikaraNa.

Regards.
Sudhanshu Shekhar.

Sudhanshu Shekhar

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Sep 16, 2024, 12:54:35 PM9/16/24
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Namaste Raghav ji.

//In other words,  experiencing the "atyantAbhAva of snake " == experiencing the "rope"//

True.

//Btw, How does this work in the case of a vikalpa (tucchaM entity)  like the horns of a hare. The adhikaraNam is just the mind there which is sAxi-vedya?//

Tuchchha is nihswarUpa. There is no vastu corresponding to vikalpa-vritti. There is no adhikaraNa of tuchchha. 

atyanta-abhAva is an abhAva which has avidyA as upAdAna.

Tuchchha would not qualify as atyanta-abhAva. It is asat i.e. tuchchha and does not have mAyA as upAdAna.

Second, atyanta-abhAva is different from adhikaraNa.

i.e., the atyanta-abhAva of snake is not just the rope. 

There is abhAva of pot on ground. The pot-abhAva is different from ground.

In case of illusory snake, since the atyanata-abhAva is not pAramArthika, we are at liberty to take it as either rope or as another mithyA entity different from rope. Depending on whether we take abhAva as adhikaraNa swarUpa or not.


You mean, even in the second view, when in the case of jagat taken as a whole,  entire jagat is sublated as mithyA, then only adhikaraNa svarUpa brahman remains as the truth.

Jagat-abhAva is identical to Brahman. It will not be another mithyA entity because jagat-abhAva is pAramArthika-abhAva.

But (as per what you wrote), in the vyAvahArika examples of atyantAbhAva, some "apparent" level of reality is allowed for the snake. Is that what you meant by the "second view".

My examples were primarily of vyAvhArika abhAva, such as pot-abhAva. The kind of atyanta-abhAva wherein differential-sattAka-objects are involved is generally not provided as example. So, I am presenting my own understanding which is subject to correction if proved wrong.

So, pot-abhAva is ground in one view. In other view, it is a mithyA-entity-different-from-ground.

In case of illusory snake-rope, it would be rope in one view. In another view, it would a mithyA-entity-different-from-rope. (I will apply mind on this issue and get back. This is what my present understanding says.)


Regards.
Sudhanshu Shekhar.

Sudhanshu Shekhar

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Sep 16, 2024, 1:04:05 PM9/16/24
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Namaste Raghav ji.

//In case of illusory snake, since the atyanata-abhAva is not pAramArthika, we are at liberty to take it as either rope or as another mithyA entity different from rope. Depending on whether we take abhAva as adhikaraNa swarUpa or not.//

I think in case of imagined objects, the atyanta-abhAva should be necessarily adhikaraNa-swarUpa.

So, if A is imagined in B, A-abhAva should be necessarily B. There should be no option here.

If A is not imagined in B, say pot-abhAva on ground -- here there is option. A-abhAva can be either B or different from B, depending on the siddhAnta.

Many thanks for asking pin-pointed question. It helped me in clarity.

Regards.
Sudhanshu Shekhar.

Michael Chandra Cohen

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Sep 16, 2024, 2:11:45 PM9/16/24
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Namaste Raghav and Sudhanshuji, 

All four cases of abhava are in reference to material objects. Even if we say Russian language abhava, we are still referring to a conceptual bhavarupa object. Abhavarupa avidya is not lille that. It is a mistake, an error of comprehension that stands as proof for the absence of Self Knowledge. The absence of Self Knowledge is not a bhavarupa absence nor can it be considered a pratiyogi because the false knowledge relates to the svarupa of the knowledge itself and svarupa of a thing can never be absent - it is absolute and ever present. Existence and non-existence are relative terms that presuppose adhyasa and thus absence of self knowledge. 

I will labor to locate Sri Swami Prakashanandendraji in his 260 talks comments on this passage unless someone else provides a worthy explanation  

// Basically, SSSS ji is saying that this jnAna-abhAva is known by sAkshI//
Jnana-abhava is know through sruti and only as an adhyaropa for the sake of teaching the falsification of samsara. 

//Regarding, sAkshi-jnAna, abhAva being a paroksha-vishaya cannot be vishaya of sAkshI-jnAna which is by definition aparoksha-jnAna and hence has aparoksha-vishaya.//
what is this aparoksha-vishaya? Aparoksha and vishaya are contrary to each other ... unless you intend indriya visharya jnana as aparoksha.  Also, why wouldn't sAkshi-jnAna know abhava? sAkshi is sarvajna, no? 


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Sudhanshu Shekhar

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Sep 17, 2024, 12:07:29 AM9/17/24
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Namaste Raghav ji. Venkatraghavan ji. Ananta Chaitanya ji.

As we saw, advaita vedAnta is not concerned with prAk, pradhvamsa and anyonya-abhAva {At some places, it uses them following NyAya}. It accepts atyanta-abhAva though. There also, it prefers atyanta-abhAva being adhikaraNa-swarUpa. However, it allows atyanta-abhAva to be other than adhikaraNa in some prakriyA as demonstrated below.
 
When we say that there is atyanta-abhAva of A in B, there are three entities involved: A (nishedhya), B (adhikaraNa) and AA (nishedha/abhAva).

Now, this AA can be of two types. AA-non-contradictory-with-A (AA-1) and AA-contradictory-with-A (AA-2).

This is understood as follows:

the "atyanta-abhAva of pot" on ground is virodhI (contradictory) with "pot". They cannot be present together. If pot is present, pot-atyanta-abhAva cannot be present and vice-versa. Thus, pot-abhAva-on-ground is an example of AA-2. This AA-2 can be either ground or different from ground, depending on siddhAnta-prakriyA.

the "atyanta-abhAva of illusory snake" in rope is not necessarily contradictory with "snake". Here, the atyanta-abhAva-of-snake is of two types. AA-1, wherein atyanta-abhAva-of-snake-is-non-contradictory-to-snake. This AA-1 is present along with snake. This AA-1 is necessarily identical to rope

AA-2, wherein atyanta-abhAva-of-snake-is-contradictory-to-snake, this  AA-2 cannot be present along with snake. This AA-2 can be either rope or different from rope, depending on siddhAnta-prakriyA

So, at time t1, I saw illusory-snake-in-rope and at time t2, I did not see illusory snake in rope. At time t1, AA-1 is present in rope along with snake. AA-2 cannot be present in rope at time t1. At time t2, AA-2 is present in rope. AA-1 is also present at time t2.

So, we saw that AA of A in B can be of two types. AA-non-contradictory-with A (AA-1) and AA-contradictory-with-A (AA-2).

Now, the following are the salient features:

AA-non-contradictory-with-A (AA-1)
  1. In case of snake-rope, AA-1 is necessarily rope.
  2. In case of world-Brahman, AA-1 is necessarily Brahman.
  3. AA-1, whether pAramArthika-abhAva or vyAvahArika-abhAva, is necessarily adhikaraNa-swarUpa. 
AA-contradictory-with-A (AA-2)
  1. In case of pot-ground, there is no AA-1. All we have is AA-2. And this AA-2 can be either ground or different from ground, depending on the prakriyA.
  2. AA-2 cannot be pAramArthika-abhAva. It has to be vyAvahArika-abhAva. And hence, it can be either adhikaraNa-swarUpa or different from adhikaraNa, depending on the prakriyA.
  3. In case of snake-abhAva-in-rope, this AA-2 can be either rope or different from rope, depending on the siddhAnta-prakriyA. 
To illustrate again

In case of pot-ground, if there is pot-abhAva on ground. This atyanta-abhAva can be either ground or different from ground, depending on sidddhAnta-prakriyA. [This is so because pot-abhAva is necessarily contradictory to pot and pot-abhAva is a vyAvahArika-abhAva. This is an example of AA-2]

In case of snake-rope, by the word snake-abhAva, we can mean two type of snake-abhAva. First, snake-abhAva which is contradictory to snake (AA-2) and second, snake-abhAva-non-contradictory-with-snake (AA-1). The snake-abhAva-which-is-not-contradictory-with-snake (AA-1) is necessarily identical to rope. The snake-abhAva-which-is-contradictory-to-snake (AA-2) can be either rope or different from rope, depending on siddhAnta-prakriyA.

All the above are so far in SDV context.

In case of DSV, wherein vyAvahArika-prAtibhAsika division is not admitted, the dream-example is taken.

In case of dream-snake appearing to be imagined in dream-rope, the snake-abhAva, whether AA-1 or AA-2 are all prAtibhAsika. So, our discussion of vyAvahArika-abhAva/pAramArthika-abhAva would fail. There, we need to see entire dream-world vis-a-vis Brahman just as we saw AA-1 in SDV above. 

A tabular representation is as under:

Nature of atyanta-abhAva

atyanta-abhAva-of-A-not-contradictory-to-A (AA-1)

atyanta-abhAva-of-A-contradictory-to-A (AA-2)

vyAvahArika-atyanta-abhAva

Mandatorily adhikaraNa-swarUpa

Either adhikaraNa-swarUpa or different from adhikaraNa

pAramArthika-atyanta-abhAva

Mandatorily adhikaraNa-swarUpa

Not possible


In case where atyanta-abhAva is not accepted to be adhikaraNa-swarUpa, atyanta-abhAva is known from anupalabdhi pramANa.

In case where atyanta-abhAva is accepted to be adhikaraNa-swarUpa, either anupalabdhi-pramANa is not accepted. Or anupalabdhi is accepted to know the adhikaraNa, abhAvatva-prakArakatvena. [ न च–एवमनुपलब्धेः पार्थक्येन प्रमाणत्वोक्तिरयुक्ता, प्रमेयानतिरेकादिति - वाच्यम् ; अतिरिक्ताभाववादिमत एवं तदुक्तेः, अतिरिक्ताभावानभ्युपगमेऽपि अभावत्वप्रकारकज्ञाने तत्प्रामाण्योपपत्तेश्च ।]

I have prepared the above write-up with lot of precision and care. I would request learned members to point out infirmities and errors, if any.

References:


For virodhI-atyanta-abhAva and non-virodhI-atyanta-abhAva  न च–त्वन्मते योग्यत्वमपि ब्रह्मणि मिथ्येति तदत्यन्ताभावोऽपि वाच्यः, तथाच कथं तदत्यन्ताभावानधिकरणत्वमिति वाच्यम् ; योग्यत्वविरोध्यत्यन्ताभावस्य विवक्षितत्वात् , स्वाश्रयनिष्ठात्यन्ताभावस्य मिथ्यात्वप्रयोजकस्य स्वाश्रयनिष्ठत्वेनैवाविरोधित्वात् । [Advaita Siddhi - BrahmaNah SwaprakAsha-lakshaNatva-vichArah]

Regards.
Sudhanshu Shekhar.


V Subrahmanian

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Sep 17, 2024, 12:42:09 AM9/17/24
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Dear Michael ji,

Shankara and Sureshwara accept Ajnana (ignorance) to be presided over by a deity



In Br.Up. Bhashyam 2.1.12 yet another interesting observation:

Mantra:   स होवाच गार्ग्यो य एवायं छायामयः पुरुष एतमेवाहं ब्रह्मोपास इति स होवाचाजातशत्रुर्मा मैतस्मिन्संवदिष्ठा मृत्युरिति वा अहमेतमुपास इति स य एतमेवमुपास्ते सर्वं हैवास्मिंल्लोक आयुरेति नैनं पुरा कालान्मृत्युरागच्छति ॥ १२ ॥

Translation:    12.    Gargya said: "This being (purusha) who consists of shadow, I  meditate upon as Brahman." Ajatasatru said: "No, no! Please  do not talk about him. I meditate upon him as death."  Whosoever thus meditates upon him reaches his full age on this  earth and death does not overtake him before the completion of  that time. 

In the Bhashyam Shankara says:
छायायां बाह्ये तमसि अध्यात्मं च आवरणात्मकेऽज्ञाने हृदि च एका देवता, तस्या विशेषणम् — मृत्युः ; फलं सर्वं पूर्ववत् , मृत्योरनागमनेन रोगादिपीडाभावो विशेषः ॥
Baahya tamas (extermal tamas)  is darkness.  And in the Ajnana, that is deluding/enveloping, and in the mind, there is one Devataa.   Shankara is accepting Ajnana too to be a physical entity. 
What is notable is that even though the mantra does not speak of the Ajnana of a person, Shankara deems it fit to mention that and as having a presiding deity.  This is yet another very strong evidence for the bhaavarUpatva of ajnana as per Shankara. 
Sureshwaracharya too, endorses the above in the Vartika 2.1.79:

छायामये तथाऽज्ञाने बुद्धौ चैकैव देवता ।।
मृत्युकालात्पुरा नास्य व्याधिरप्युपसर्पति ।। ७९ ।।
In the Ajnana and in the mind there is One Deity that presides over (antaryami)
That proves beyond doubt that the Shruti, Shankara and Sureshwara - all hold Ajnana to be a material, bhAvarUpa entity.  If such were not the case there would not be the mention of an Antaryami and a locus for Ajnana. 
Apart from this, the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad accepts Darkness and Light to be two distinct entities in whom the impelling Consciousness, called Antaryami, Brahman resides. 
Since a deity can be enlivening another entity, that entity has to be a bhAvarUpa one and not any abhAvarUpa entity. 
warm regards
subbu  

Sudhanshu Shekhar

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Sep 17, 2024, 2:50:21 AM9/17/24
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Namaste Subbu ji.

//That proves beyond doubt that the Shruti, Shankara and Sureshwara - all hold Ajnana to be a material, bhAvarUpa entity.//

I think, by this instance, we can hold that -- ajnAna is an abhAva-vilakshaNa entity. The fact that it is presided by a devatA proves that ajnAna is abhAva-vilakshaNa entity.

That is it.

Should we say that it is a material entity? Because that would be contradictory to bhAva-vilakshaNatA of ajnAna.

ajnAna is both bhAva-vilakshaNa and abhAva-vilakshaNa. The instances quoted by you prove its abhAva-vilakshaNatA imho.

It is a very crucial point I feel.

Regards.
Sudhanshu Shekhar.

V Subrahmanian

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Sep 17, 2024, 3:34:51 AM9/17/24
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Dear Sudhamshu ji,

I appreciate your response.  I think to hold Ajnana to be triguNAtmika makes it matter/kShetram of the 13th ch. of the Bh.Gita. 

warm regards
subbu

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Sudhanshu Shekhar

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Sep 17, 2024, 3:49:09 AM9/17/24
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Namaste Subbu ji.


I appreciate your response.  I think to hold Ajnana to be triguNAtmika makes it matter/kShetram of the 13th ch. of the Bh.Gita. 

Kshetra is avidyA (avyakta) and avidyA-kArya. 

avidyA-kArya is sAdi but avidyA is anAdi.

VinAshI bhAva is sAdi.

If avidyA is held to be bhAva like avidyA-kArya say chair, table etc, it would become sAdi which is contradictory to its anAditva.

So, the fact that it is triguNAtmaka is also proving its abhAva-vilakshaNatA only. And not bhAvatva.

That is why avidyA is accepted as both both bhAva-vilakshaNa and abhAva-vilakshaNa.

Regards.
Sudhanshu Shekhar 

Sudhanshu Shekhar

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Sep 17, 2024, 3:52:14 AM9/17/24
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Very well presented Raghav ji.

On Tue, 17 Sep, 2024, 13:11 Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l, <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
Namaste Subbu ji

I was reminded of the counter-intuituve logic preferred for why avidyA is
not a bhAva entity (like a pot) and is "bhAva-rUpa" although pot is
regarded as bhAva inspite of being just avidyA-kArya,  viz.,
विनाशी भावः सादि |
यत्र यत्र विनाशि-भावत्वम् तत्र तत्र भाव-विलक्षणत्वम् ।

But avidyA being anAdi, it does not have sAditvaM, so avidyA is not a bhAva
padArtha like pot. (bAdhaka sattva is there which rules out bhAva word for
avidyA).

  We would expect the word bhAva to be in some sense a "stronger" category
than bhAva-rUpa, but the contrary is true. The bhAva-vilaxaNa avidyA being
the cause pervades the bhAva padArtha pot etc.

Om
Raghav




On Tue, 17 Sept, 2024, 12:27 pm Sudhanshu Shekhar via Advaita-l, <
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V Subrahmanian

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Sep 17, 2024, 3:57:23 AM9/17/24
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The term / epithet bhAvarUpa applied to Avidya will have to be explained. I had done this before by taking the analogy of the ter smritirUpa in the adhyasa Bhashya smritirUpa paratra purvadrishta avabhasah is adhyasa:

Smriti rupa means smriti sadrusha and not smriti itself.

Similarly when Avidya is said to be bhAvarUpa it is bhAvasadrsha and not bhAva itself.

On the basis of Yama being stated to be the presiding deity for ajnana, like Manas, and tamas, it has to be a 'some thing'.

Regards


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Sudhanshu Shekhar

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Sep 17, 2024, 4:46:55 AM9/17/24
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Namaste Subbu ji.

Similarly when Avidya is said to be bhAvarUpa it is bhAvasadrsha and not bhAva itself.

Indeed. Both bhAva and bhAvarUpa-avidyA have sAdrishya. And that sAdrishya is abhAva-vilakshaNatA.

On the basis of Yama being stated to be the presiding deity for ajnana, like Manas, and tamas, it has to be a 'some thing'.

Here, I would request that we can keep it to be "non-abhAva".

Non-abhAva does not automatically mean "some thing".

Non-abhAva-tva and non-bhAva-tva can co-appear in avidyA.

If we do not do so, we will be unable to uphold anAditva of avidyA. And also, we will be charged with merely using the term bhAvarUpa, when in reality, all we are intending is "some thing" which is nothing but bhAva like chair, table.

Regards.
Sudhanshu Shekhar.

Michael Chandra Cohen

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Sep 17, 2024, 7:38:52 AM9/17/24
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Namaste Sudhanshuji Raghav et. al. 

To end the mystery of the cherry picked phrase, it comes from, smṛtirūpaḥ paratra pūrva dṛṣṭa-āvabhāsaḥ/Like memory it is just an appearance elsewhere of something seen earlier.
That is the subject heading in Sugama from where the phrase originated. SSSSji is arguing that Bhagavatpada is referring to lokyia adhyasa and not adhyatmika adhyasa. 

Prasanth Netiji responded in kind on FB. I will cut and paste his two comments. I'll also share some personal notes taken from Sri Swami PRakashanadendraji's Sugama Youtube talks #041. He discusses this topic in 4 or 5 talks and at the same time compares with the mulavidya view. 

Prasanth Neti
Top contributor
//// How can a prior non-existence be established temporally to the non-existence of Self knowledge? Time/prior is only established though adhyasa which itself presupposes jnana abhava. ////
Your second statement itself answers the question.
It is from the [or to the] viewpoint of adhyasa (mithya-jñāna) alone jñāna-abhāva (absence-of-Self-knowledge) makes sense as prāk-abhāva, because, time is already pre-supposed into the adhyasa standpoint.
That means, that very adhyasa / mithya-jñāna itself is what we point to as ‘jñāna-abhava’ and teach the seeker that with raise of knowledge, the absence of knowledge goes away (i.e. mithya-jñāna goes away). That much only.
We do not mean to locate jñāna-abhava outside adhyasa / mithya-jñāna (i.e. we do not locate it as an entity outside clutches of adhyasa) that anyone can point to it as a dosha by saying that it is prior to time.
That is why to us whether one calls it as mithya-jñāna or lack of knowledge or doubtful knowledge, we do not care. All that we are interested in is pointing to it in anubhava (without establishing it through pramanas) and while doing so, emphasise that it gets removed with raise of knowledge.
Recall in Brihadaranyaka 3.3.1, Bhagavatpāda says:
“” यदि ज्ञानाभावो, यदि संशयज्ञानं यदि विपरीतज्ञानं वा उच्यते अज्ञानमिति, सर्वं हि तज्ज्ञानेनैव निवर्त्यते। “”
“” In whatever way we talk of ignorance, whether it is absence of knowledge or doubt or wrong knowledge, all of them are removable by knowledge. “”
Moreover, to us neither adhyasa nor lack of knowledge are material-like in nature - both of them are of the nature of knowledge - both are epistemic.
The jñāna-abhāva which exists prāk (prior) to raise of knowledge can be ***for all practical purposes*** taken as prāk-abhāva.
There is no difficulty in understanding this abhāva. Simply “look at” mithya-jñāna - that is lack of knowledge.
Always note that, the nature of ‘sea-shell appearing as silver’ (superimposition) is merely that of false knowledge (विपारीतज्ञानमात्रम्). It is not a product of a positive insentient material like indescribable ignorance. If it would have been a product of a positive insentient material like indescribable ignorance then it can never be merely that of false knowledge (विपारीतज्ञानमात्रम् i.e. विपरीतग्रहणमात्रम्), because what is the basic nature of cause will also be basic nature of its effect.
In the same way, when we say ‘ignorance about sea-shell is removed’, the nature of such removal is merely raise of true knowledge of sea-shell (शुक्तिज्ञानोदयमात्रम्). There is no removal / destruction of material like indescribable ignorance.
To sum up, both ignorance (false-knowledge) and its antidote knowledge (i.e. true knowledge) have ‘knowledge’ as its nature but not any material like insentient indescribable entity as its nature.
Bṛhadāraṇyaka bhāshya 1.4.7:
यथा गृह्यमाणाया अपि शुक्तिकाया विपर्ययेण रजताभासाया अग्रहणं विपरीतज्ञानव्यवधानमात्रम्, तथा ग्रहणं ज्ञानमात्रमेव, विपरीतज्ञानव्यवधानापोहार्थत्वाज्ज्ञानस्य; एवमिहाप्यात्मनोऽलाभः अविद्यामात्रव्यवधानम्; तस्माद्विद्यया तदपोहनमात्रमेव लाभः, नान्यः कदाचिदप्युपपद्यते। तस्मादात्मलाभे ज्ञानादर्थान्तरसाधनस्य आनर्थक्यं वक्ष्यामः।
Trans. Sw. Madhavananda: Just as when a mother-of-pearl appears through mistake as a piece of silver, the non-apprehension of the former, although it is being perceived all the while, is merely due to the obstruction of the false impression, and its (subsequent) apprehension is but knowledge, for this is what removes the obstruction of false impression, similarly here also the non-attainment of the Self is merely due to the obstruction of ignorance. Therefore the attainment of It is simply the removal of that obstruction by knowledge; in no other sense it is consistent. Hence we shall explain how for the realisation of the Self every other means but knowledge is useless.
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Prasanth Neti
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To summarise:
It is प्रागभाव. This means, before the knowledge is generated, there is prior absence (प्रागभाव) of such knowledge. But unlike pot’s प्रागभाव, the प्रागभाव of ज्ञानं is experienceable only from the stand point of wrong knowledge (मिथ्या-ज्ञानम्). This is key because, ज्ञानाभावम् is never experienced as ‘some-indescribable-positive-thing’ which is separate from मिथ्या-ज्ञानम् and/or independent of मिथ्या-ज्ञानम्.
Prasanth Neti
Top contributor
//// How can a prior non-existence be established temporally to the non-existence of Self knowledge? Time/prior is only established though adhyasa which itself presupposes jnana abhava. ////
Your second statement itself answers the question.
It is from the [or to the] viewpoint of adhyasa (mithya-jñāna) alone jñāna-abhāva (absence-of-Self-knowledge) makes sense as prāk-abhāva, because, time is already pre-supposed into the adhyasa standpoint.
That means, that very adhyasa / mithya-jñāna itself is what we point to as ‘jñāna-abhava’ and teach the seeker that with raise of knowledge, the absence of knowledge goes away (i.e. mithya-jñāna goes away). That much only.
We do not mean to locate jñāna-abhava outside adhyasa / mithya-jñāna (i.e. we do not locate it as an entity outside clutches of adhyasa) that anyone can point to it as a dosha by saying that it is prior to time.
That is why to us whether one calls it as mithya-jñāna or lack of knowledge or doubtful knowledge, we do not care. All that we are interested in is pointing to it in anubhava (without establishing it through pramanas) and while doing so, emphasise that it gets removed with raise of knowledge.
Recall in Brihadaranyaka 3.3.1, Bhagavatpāda says:
“” यदि ज्ञानाभावो, यदि संशयज्ञानं यदि विपरीतज्ञानं वा उच्यते अज्ञानमिति, सर्वं हि तज्ज्ञानेनैव निवर्त्यते। “”
“” In whatever way we talk of ignorance, whether it is absence of knowledge or doubt or wrong knowledge, all of them are removable by knowledge. “”
Moreover, to us neither adhyasa nor lack of knowledge are material-like in nature - both of them are of the nature of knowledge - both are epistemic.
The jñāna-abhāva which exists prāk (prior) to raise of knowledge can be ***for all practical purposes*** taken as prāk-abhāva.
There is no difficulty in understanding this abhāva. Simply “look at” mithya-jñāna - that is lack of knowledge.
Always note that, the nature of ‘sea-shell appearing as silver’ (superimposition) is merely that of false knowledge (विपारीतज्ञानमात्रम्). It is not a product of a positive insentient material like indescribable ignorance. If it would have been a product of a positive insentient material like indescribable ignorance then it can never be merely that of false knowledge (विपारीतज्ञानमात्रम् i.e. विपरीतग्रहणमात्रम्), because what is the basic nature of cause will also be basic nature of its effect.
In the same way, when we say ‘ignorance about sea-shell is removed’, the nature of such removal is merely raise of true knowledge of sea-shell (शुक्तिज्ञानोदयमात्रम्). There is no removal / destruction of material like indescribable ignorance.
To sum up, both ignorance (false-knowledge) and its antidote knowledge (i.e. true knowledge) have ‘knowledge’ as its nature but not any material like insentient indescribable entity as its nature.
Bṛhadāraṇyaka bhāshya 1.4.7:
यथा गृह्यमाणाया अपि शुक्तिकाया विपर्ययेण रजताभासाया अग्रहणं विपरीतज्ञानव्यवधानमात्रम्, तथा ग्रहणं ज्ञानमात्रमेव, विपरीतज्ञानव्यवधानापोहार्थत्वाज्ज्ञानस्य; एवमिहाप्यात्मनोऽलाभः अविद्यामात्रव्यवधानम्; तस्माद्विद्यया तदपोहनमात्रमेव लाभः, नान्यः कदाचिदप्युपपद्यते। तस्मादात्मलाभे ज्ञानादर्थान्तरसाधनस्य आनर्थक्यं वक्ष्यामः।
Trans. Sw. Madhavananda: Just as when a mother-of-pearl appears through mistake as a piece of silver, the non-apprehension of the former, although it is being perceived all the while, is merely due to the obstruction of the false impression, and its (subsequent) apprehension is but knowledge, for this is what removes the obstruction of false impression, similarly here also the non-attainment of the Self is merely due to the obstruction of ignorance. Therefore the attainment of It is simply the removal of that obstruction by knowledge; in no other sense it is consistent. Hence we shall explain how for the realisation of the Self every other means but knowledge is useless.
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Prasanth Neti
Top contributor
To summarise:
It is प्रागभाव. This means, before the knowledge is generated, there is prior absence (प्रागभाव) of such knowledge. But unlike pot’s प्रागभाव, the प्रागभाव of ज्ञानं is experienceable only from the stand point of wrong knowledge (मिथ्या-ज्ञानम्). This is key because, ज्ञानाभावम् is never experienced as ‘some-indescribable-positive-thing’ which is separate from मिथ्या-ज्ञानम् and/or independent of मिथ्या-ज्ञानम्.

041 smrti  h paratra purva drsta avabhasah

Adhyatmika v. lokya adhyasa – 3 distinctions

“seeing something differently from what it is” essential meaning of adhyasa. So why did Sankara employ such a challenging technical definition? Unnecessary complicating the issue. It is because there are two kinds of adhyasa

The technical definition is intended as a general definition of vyavaharika superimposition as opposed to sat/asat adhyasa.. 

Worldly instance of adhyasa is time bound (hence like memory of something seen elsewhere)
Adhyatmika adhy is anadi – it has no beginning. 

Lokya adhyasa – snake exists elsewhere as real but here and now alone is it a false snake. There must be a real snake to be superimposed. If one has not seen a snake elsewhere, one could not mistake it now. Or there is some samkara of snake
adhyatmika – there is no other real jiva or one real world to compare with this adhyasa. 

  1. Beginning in time: beginningless

  2. One object mistaken for another object: subject mistaken for object – “Subject and object are not two separate adhyasas!” 

  3. No memory or samkara needed in adhyatmaka adhyasa

  4. (from 17.45 042)Adhyasa is a product – vs adhyatmika adhyasa


Mulavidya

They mixed up worldly and adhyatmika adhyasa

#2 subj/obj adhyasa – 

32 min. post sankarites – world separate, jiva, eshwara etc. – 

37 min. Appaya Dikitista Siddhanta lesa – gathered so many varying interpretations on key Advaita points but SSS is rejected outright by traditional teachers – “boycott”



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putran M

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Sep 17, 2024, 9:54:08 AM9/17/24
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Namaskaram,

I've made this complaint before in some form or other. People are using English words like material, thing, entity, positive; and Sanskrit words like bhava, bhavarupa, sAdi etc. There needs to be proper translations given and agreed upon before we have arguments over why certain words should or should not be used. For instance, it has already been mentioned that several advaita scholars have denoted avidya as "positive entity", and so far as English language goes, "positive entity" is a "thing". So are we debating whether the past English scholarship was deficient in understanding of advaita or English? We argue over avidya being "material" or not. What is the universal meaning for material that is being adopted in these discussions? 

I think, if pot is said to be material, then Clay is the material. Once we talk of pot, Clay is equally real and sat-karya-vada demands that pot or pot-knowledge is anaadi in Clay - it is only a question of manifestation/cognition that is sAdi. They come and go together, otherwise - depending on the standpoint of Knowledge. In vyavharika, Avidya is anaadi and ishvara-jiva-jagat is anaadi; how this differentiated knowledge comes to cognition is sAdi. imu.

thollmelukaalkizhu

Bhaskar YR

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Sep 25, 2024, 1:36:32 AM9/25/24
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praNAms Sri Putran prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

I think, if pot is said to be material, then Clay is the material.

 

  • IN the vyavahAra we say pot is a product (kArya) which has the material clay (kAraNa). 

 

Once we talk of pot, Clay is equally real and sat-karya-vada demands that pot or pot-knowledge is anaadi in Clay

 

  • Yes definitely hence we say the creator is sarvajna and sarva shakta and he has the complete knowledge of forth coming srushti.  dhAta yathA pUrvamakalpayatu.  He does the srushti as per the knowledge of previous kalpa for the sake of jeeva.  In purusha sUkta we say : sarvANi rUpANi vichitya dheeraH namAnikrutvAbhivadaN yadaaste he created all forms named them and he is calling by their names.  If pot knowledge is not anaadi in clay how can it be possible 😊   So definitely clay as kAraNa Chaitanya in dArshAntika has the prior knowledge of pot and pot as clay definitely has the existence in clay as clay before manifesting as pot.  See this bhAshya for example which highlight how pot is clay only and nothing but clay :  just as brahman the cause never deviates from existence in all the three periods of time, so also the effect, the world, never deviates from existence in all the three periods (of creation, sustenance and dissolution).  And existence again is ONLY ONE.  So for this reason also, ‘the effect is none other than the cause’. 

 

- it is only a question of manifestation/cognition that is sAdi. They come and go together, otherwise - depending on the standpoint of Knowledge. In vyavharika, Avidya is anaadi and ishvara-jiva-jagat is anaadi; how this differentiated knowledge comes to cognition is sAdi.

 

  • Not able to understand you last statement.  Do you mean to say adhyAsa (misconception) is said??  Please elaborate.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

Bhaskar YR

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Sep 25, 2024, 5:16:18 AM9/25/24
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praNAms Sri Raghava prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

 But any absence (like pot-absence on the ground) requires some mental processing and recollecting a pot seen earlier etc., - it is paroxa  jnAnam, a "two-step" process

 

  • What we are talking about as jnAnAbhAva is not like pot abhAva but pot jnAna abhAva.  I think I have explained this by taking the example of ‘gAgAbubu’ of Sri Sada prabhuji in one of my earlier mails.  What is the absence of the pot in the above statement ? When I have the objective knowledge of the pot that was there earlier on the ground, now does not see the pot outside, I say the pot is absent on the ground is it not??  But, when one speaks of the ajnAna of the pot (the thing itself) there is some difference between my ajnAna about abhava of pot and my ajnAna about jnAna of the pot. I anyway accept on the basis of somebody’s word that there must be an object called a pot. Like when someone says there is gAgAbubu on the ground, I accept that there is something called gAgAbubu on the ground.  But please note I am not able to get its picture in the intellect what exactly this gAgAbubu is though I heard the word gAgAbubu.  I simply say I have the ajnAna of the gAgAbubu (pot).  In the same way, when shAstra /Acharya talks about Atman or our svarUpa, the listener, me accepts that I am Atman / brahman or accepts that there exists an object called gAgAbubu on the basis of his word. But, when I am unable to get its corresponding form in my intellect, I confess that I have ajnAna of my svarUpa or Atman/brahman (jnAnAbhAva about our svarUpa).

 

  • In this way, the abhAva of an external object (pot) in accordance with its Vishaya jnAna (pot jnAna),  is the absence of the object, here in the above example pot abhAva on the ground,  the absence of the picture (vrutti rUpa jnAna of gAgAbubu) in the intellect is called the absence of its knowledge.  jnAna abhAva of pot jnAna.  Here it is not pot abhAva but pot jnAna abhAva as I don’t get any vrutti rUpa jnAna when someone talks about gAgAbubu.  In the misconception the intellect ( the antaHkaraNa) has a form different from that of the existing object.  Like seeing the snake in place of rope.  And in the scenario of right knowledge / cognition my intellect has the right picture / vrutti rUpa jnAna in accordance with the actually existing thing.  Like seeing the rope as rope.  But in the case of gAgAbubu ajnAna I neither get wrong knowledge nor right knowledge as there is complete absence of any kind of vrutti in my intellect.  This is exactly called jnAna abhAva of the gAgAbubu.  And please note there is no need for giving objective existence to this type of jnAnAbhAva like pot abhAva. 

 

  • Hari Hari hari Bol!!!

 

  • bhaskar

PS :  you directly written to me and I addressed it to group 😊

Michael Chandra Cohen

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Sep 25, 2024, 6:02:52 AM9/25/24
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Namaste Raghav, 
Great example but isn't the 'darkness' you experience with your eyes closed just another name for 'absence of light'? Rather, it's better to understand "it" as sakshi observing the absence of objects and light - all just names for the 'it' you are calling darkness.
Regards, michael

On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 5:36 AM Raghav Kumar Dwivedula via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Raghav Kumar Dwivedula <raghav...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Sept, 2024, 1:26 pm
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] [advaitin] what is abhava?
To: Bhaskar YR <bhask...@hitachienergy.com>


Namaste Bhaskar prabhu ji
You have articulated in detail the views of SSS ji based on a prima facie
view of human experience and thank you for the same. But the mainstream
Advaita tradition has thought through this issue much more deeply and
thoroughly than these prima facie views. (E.g., the prima facie (seemingly
anubhava sammata) view is that "what is seen is real". But as we know from
prasiddha hetu, the opposite is true.)

I would only suggest you examine the following -
When I close my eyes, I do directly experience something.  i don't need to
"think about" light to appreciate that darkness. This is anubhava sammata -
that I don't need to think about light to experience darkness. Darkness
experience is a "one-step" experience like experiencing the ground in front
of me.


 But any absence (like pot-absence on the ground) requires some mental
processing and recollecting a pot seen earlier etc., - it is paroxa
jnAnam, a "two-step" process.

Om
Raghav



On Wed, 25 Sept, 2024, 12:02 pm Bhaskar YR, <bhask...@hitachienergy.com>
wrote:

> praNAms Sri rAghava prabhuji
> Hare Krishna
>
> Perhaps what the word ekarUpa used by Bhaskar ji means is - If there is
> only one category of abhAva (I e., atyanta abhAva) accepted, one could say
> it is just "ekarUpa" in the language employed by SSS adherents. But then
> what of prAgabhAva which is accepted by SSS ji?
>
> >  As you know I am not a logician (infact I myself proud to say despite
> my grand ignorance about nyAya shAstra) would like to understand these
> things in the light of day to day experience.  So whether Sri SSS agreed
> for prAgabhAva type of abhAva or something else is hardly a matter of
> concern.  Infact Sri SSS, in sugama,  contextually granting the status of
> prAgabhAva to the abhAva during the flow of discussion after hearing the
> various types of abhAva from the logician's desk.  We cannot say it is his
> final stand and final definition of anubhava sammata jnAnAbhAva.  The
> anubhava sammata jnAnAbhAva is very simple it is absence of knowledge.
> This 'I don’t know' something which is quite common in all there is no need
> for finding the reason for it and asking the cause for it is also
> illegitimate.  Due to the absence of knowledge that we are brahman
> (akartru-abhOktru) we have been constantly identifying ourselves in
> jaagrat, Svapna, sushupti, seeing and experiencing different things in
> jAgrat and svapna with the help of antaHkaraNa, doing puNya, pApa, liking,
> disliking, taking birth meeting death etc. etc.  And when we realize that
> we are free from these upAdhi-s and we are secondless chaitanyam
> (parishuddha brahma/Atma) the knowledge dawns that we are bereft of these
> things.  But till the dawn of this knowledge we donot know this.  This
> ignorance of us about ourselves is called avidyA.  In vedAnta also this
> avidyA is called ajnAna, agrahaNa etc.  I don’t know where in the PTB we
> can have the definition of difference between avidyA as material cause and
> jnAnAbhAva as its product!!  This absence of knowledge about our svarUpa is
> what is called jnAnAbhAva.  And the adhyAsa is because of this absent of
> knowledge.  This ignorance (jnAnAbhAva) is not pravartaka as it is ekarUpa
> the direct pravartaka (or motivator) is adhyAsa and yeshaNa, kAma etc.
> though it can be said ignorance is the indirect cause for the pravartaka
> vrutti.  Sri SSS emphasizes that adhyAsa is the direct cause on account of
> which one thinks that he is dehavAn (dehAtma buddhi), sees the distinction
> between male-female, he is thin, fat, she is my wife, I am happy, I am sad
> etc. etc. and as a result accruing pApa and pUnya and succumbing to birth
> and death cycle.  So avidyA ( as jnAnAbhAva) is not directly responsible
> for this differentiation as it is ekarUpa / uniform in all of us.  It is
> only when we are suffering in adhyAsa leading us to avidyA kAma karma.  In
> the sUtra bhAshya it is specifically said that :  na cha avidyA kevala
> vaishamyasya kAraNaM ekarUpatvAt...rAgAdikleshavAsanAkshipta karmApeksha tu
> avidyA vaishamyakAree syAt.  And we say this avidyA is ekarUpa so it cannot
> be directly responsible for the differences. How this jnAnAbhAva is ekarUpa
> / uniform ??  the answer is simple and anubhava sammata that it is just the
> absence of knowledge which cannot be different in different jeeva-s hence
> adhyAsa.  The reason for the wrong knowledge (adhyAsa) is the absence of
> right knowledge (thought) in mind i.e. I am brahman.  The logicians may
> hammer this very simple lokAnubhava sammata definition of avidyA as
> jnAnAbhAva and adhyAsa as wrong knowledge from different angles and
> logics.  But in our books it remains as simple as this.  And this simple
> definition about our problem is good enough for us to strive hard for the
> right knowledge.

>
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> bhaskar
>

Bhaskar YR

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Sep 25, 2024, 6:34:23 AM9/25/24
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praNAms Sri MCC prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Great example but isn't the 'darkness' you experience with your eyes closed just another name for 'absence of light'?

 

  • No, according to some, the darkness is some kind of veil which objectively existing like table. Chair in a room it is not mere prakAsha abhAva or absence of light.  Hence avidyA too like darkness has an objective existence ( anyway there is dispute among themselves, one say, when it is said bhAva rUpa it is kinchit abhAva,  another say it is something that is existing another would argue when it is said avidyA is bhAva rUpa is bhAvAbhAva vilakshaNa always invariably 😊 Anyway for us avidyA is tAmasa pratyaya ‘rUpa’ and it is not an existing objective thing hence it is destroyable.  Any amount of prakAsha cannot remove the really existing table chair in the room whereas we cannot search darkness by holding the torch 😊   darkness is the absence of light but certain things can be seen by some animals (like owls, cats etc.) even in pitch dark when human can hardly see.  But for those animals also table and chair are existing and would try to avoid them whereas darkness is just not existing for them. 

 

Rather, it's better to understand "it" as sakshi observing the absence of objects and light - all just names for the 'it' you are calling darkness.

 

Ø     I am not able to understand this business of only sAkshi vedya in this avidyA vyavahAra …BTW is there anything existing that is NOT sAkshi vedya?? 

Kuntimaddi Sadananda

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Sep 25, 2024, 10:08:24 AM9/25/24
to A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta, Advaitin, Bhaskar YR

Bhaskarji - PraNAms

 

I have not followed very extensive discussions on the jnaana abhaava.

 

I have a question/suggestion.

 

Let us look at the deep-sleep state. 

 

During the deep sleep state, there is the absence of all - subject-object duality, which can be referred to as the absence of the world of plurality.

 

I also do not know that 'I am there sleeping very well' - other than the fact the absence of all objective knowledge (absence of the second) makes my mind relaxed, and I get up from sleep and say I slept very well - that is the recollection of the experience of the absence of all duality.

 

That Sakshi knows that I am sleeping is from Vedanta.

 

During the deep sleep state, I have two abhaavas – 1. The absence of the world of plurality – including space and time, or should I say the absence of the knowledge of the world of plurality.

 

2. Absence of the knowledge of my own existence that includes my own body, mind, and intellect (BMI). – This is besides the lack of Self-Knowledge (which I am not aware of even in the waking state unless I get exposed to Vedanta)

 

When I get up from sleep,  a) the knowledge of the world as I knew it before, and the knowledge of myself as ‘I am this BMI.’ Only from Vedanta did I learn that ‘I am this BMI’ is the result of the projection of myself (viskhepa) since I have fundamental ignorance of not knowing my true nature.  It is not like pot-abhaava nor even gaagabuubu abaava since there is some knowledge that ‘I know I exist’ and ‘I know I am a conscious being’ and I am looking for ‘happiness’ all the time. Only Vedanta points out that I am not only SAT, CHIT but ANANDA. Logically, one can deduce that happiness that I get from objects comes from my own self rather than from fulfilling the desires. But logic does not stop my pursuit of Ananda outside – Hence rat-race continues.

 

The question then remains – This partial abhaava of myself – that I am Ananda swaruupam also – seems to be beginningless ajnaana – And Vedanta points out the fundamental truth that one can logically also deduce to some extent that I am the source of happiness too. However, Vedanta also points out that ‘anantameva AnandaH’ – That is Brahman (Satyam, Jnanam, Anatam, Brahma) also is pure happiness, and I am that – ‘that tvam asi’.

 

Any ignorance is beginningless – that includes my Chemistry ignorance or gaagaabuubu’s ignorance’.

 

Irrespective of ‘who says what’, the fundamental problem remains – that I am the very source of Happiness that I am longing for – and Vedanta alone points out that while reinforcing the logic that happiness comes from myself (aatmanastu kaamaaya sarvam priyam bhavati) , also that I am Brahman or Infinite, aham brahamaasmi.  

 

 

Personally, I consider the rest of the discussion to be only Academic. For me, ‘Who says what is irrelevant, other than understanding and solving the fundamental problem’.

 

 

Hari Om!

 

Sada

 

 




On Wednesday, September 25, 2024 at 07:45:27 AM EDT, Bhaskar YR via Advaita-l <adva...@lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:


Please, how is avidya a tamasa pratyaya rupa for us? Avidya is purely an epistemolgical klesha - as adhyasa, it precedes guna, pratyaya and rupa respectively.


praNAms Sri MCC prabhuji
Hare Krishna

While explaining adhyAsa lakshaNa bhAshyakAra uses these terms, like smruti rUpa, tAmasa pratyaya etc. example geeta bhAshya 13.2 (tAmasO hi pratyaya.  It is like tAmasic notion, it is what obscures etc.  So while describing that this is antaHkaraNa dOsha bhAshyakAra himself explains this as smruti rUpa, tAmasa pratyaya etc.  Likewise elsewhere Sri SSS explains kAraNAvidyA and kAryAvidyA as well.  The agrahaNa is called kAraNAvidyA and anyathAgrahaNa called as kAryAvidyA.  And I don’t have to explain this further to you from Sri SSS's perspective as you are well aware of his view points.


Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar

putran M

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Sep 25, 2024, 11:50:11 AM9/25/24
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Namaskaram Bhaskar-ji,

- it is only a question of manifestation/cognition that is sAdi. They come and go together, otherwise - depending on the standpoint of Knowledge. In vyavharika, Avidya is anaadi and ishvara-jiva-jagat is anaadi; how this differentiated knowledge comes to cognition is sAdi.

 

  • Not able to understand you last statement.  Do you mean to say adhyAsa (misconception) is said??  Please elaborate.


Actually since my sanskrit is limited, I assumed sAdi is "becoming produced/born" in some sense. Whatever shape the clay is moulded into, the potential to manifest that shape was always in the Clay (hence its anaadi 'knowledge'); when that shape appears, then it is said to be sAdi. imo Misconception also is imagination that is part of Ishvara srushti. If you are miffed by the word Ishvara, call it just the unitary Chaitanyam (+Maya) that is the reality of the vyavaharika standpoint. The content of the imagination is a part of His Maya, as His intrinsic 'Knowledge', and when the unitary Chaitanyam brings this Knowledge into awareness, cognition, manifestation/srushti, we say it is sAdi.

thollmelukaalkizhu
 

Bhaskar YR

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Sep 26, 2024, 1:47:16 AM9/26/24
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praNAms Sri Putran prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Actually since my sanskrit is limited, I assumed sAdi is "becoming produced/born" in some sense.

 

  • Yes prabhuji sAdi is something which as beginning and anAdi means beginningless. 

 

Whatever shape the clay is moulded into, the potential to manifest that shape was always in the Clay (hence its anaadi 'knowledge');

 

  • Yes, the Ishwara’s srushti jnAna is anAdi and anata, he knows anything and everything.  He is sarvagna, sarvashakta.  vyAkruta prapancha ( the manifested jagat with nAma rUpa) has the seed in avyAkruta mUla bhUta (unmanifested fundamental power) shakti of Ishwara.  That shakti is mAya and Ishwara is mAyAvi 😊

 

when that shape appears, then it is said to be sAdi.

 

  • Yes we always talk about srushti-sthiti-praLaya within some time frame hence can be said like that. 

 

imo Misconception also is imagination that is part of Ishvara srushti.

 

  • Problem starts here for me prabhuji.  The misconception is just imagination of jeeva due to his jnAnAbhAva.  And for this misconception we cannot fix the time frame to say it has beginning at some point of time.  This misconception is anAdi Ananta naisargika svAbhAvika says bhAshyakAra in adhyAsa bhAshya.  adhyAsa is antaHkaraNa dOsha of individual jeeva for that Ishwara srushti is Asare.  Here Ishwara srushti itself is not misconception, seeing some other thing / dharma in Ishwara srushti is misconception.  Which is again beginningless explains bhAshyakAra.  To see the snake the rope should be there, to see the blueness we need to have some idea about AkAsha….If Rope and AkAsha itself is not there as Asare for the adhyAsa then anyone can do any adhyAsa on anything.  That will not go in line with anubhava sammata tarka. 

 

If you are miffed by the word Ishvara, call it just the unitary Chaitanyam (+Maya) that is the reality of the vyavaharika standpoint.

 

  • IMO, Ishwara is in Advaita texts is equal to brahman his mAya is not different from him in the srushti module.  Hence attributing avidyA / adhyAsa ( which is strictly the problem of jeeva / jeevAntaHkaraNa) to him is something untenable for those who have theistic approach to Advaita vedAnta’s jnAna mArga.  Ishwara is always avidyA vinirmukta, he is nitya, Shuddha, buddha, mukta svarUpa.  I think we have talked about it lot of times earlier 😊

 

The content of the imagination is a part of His Maya, as His intrinsic 'Knowledge',

 

  • Yes for adhyAsa mAya kArya is Asare 😊 imagination / bhrAnti / Kalpana can happen only when there is something out there.  IOW,  one can see snake (misunderstand) in place of mAyA kArya rope

 

and when the unitary Chaitanyam brings this Knowledge into awareness, cognition, manifestation/srushti, we say it is sAdi.

 

  • It is chaitanyam through his untainted knowledge makes the unmanifested see as manifested jagat.  And this jagat is the platform for the jeeva to exhaust his pApa-puNya and also mOksha.  For that, we, the jeeva, need the grace of this chaitanyaM (Ishwara).  The mundane life has been created by Ishwara who is the ultimate witness and the indweller of all creatures (sarvabhUtAntarAtma) and presides over all Karma and bestower of karmaphala (karmAdhyaksha and karma phala dAta). It is only from his grace that one can get even the knowledge which leads one to mOksha. 
  •  You are welcome to disagree with me prabhuji.  But this is how I understood the concept of Ishwara in Advaita Vedanta.

Bhaskar YR

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Sep 26, 2024, 3:57:30 AM9/26/24
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praNAms Sri Sada prabhuji

Hare Krishna

During the deep sleep state, I have two abhaavas

  • As per kArika prAjnA in susupti suffers from beeja rUpa ajnAna ( i.e. jnAnAbhA) only and he is free from vipareeta darshana.  This is also said from the waking stand point.  But when we see the sushupti from it’s own domain it is the state of ekatvam. 

When I get up from sleep,  a) the knowledge of the world as I knew it before, and the knowledge of myself as ‘I am this BMI.’

Ø     Yes prabhuji the same jeeva which goes to sleep wakes up from that state as same jeeva.  Lest if it is some other jeeva that jeeva will face akruta abhyAgama – kurta praNAsha dOsha 😊

 

Only from Vedanta did I learn that ‘I am this BMI’ is the result of the projection of myself (viskhepa) since I have fundamental ignorance of not knowing my true nature.  

Ø     Yes, only after realizing the rope we realize that what we were seeing only rope but due to lack of knowledge of rope in that place we were seeing non-existing snake.  This not knowing is the fundamental ignorance called as svarUpa jnAna abhAva as a result adhyAsa taking one self as dehavAn, kartru, bhOktru etc.

It is not like pot-abhaava nor even gaagabuubu abaava since there is some knowledge that ‘I know I exist’ and ‘I know I am a conscious being’ and I am looking for ‘happiness’ all the time.

Ø     Yes, I know I exist but I take that existence as something else hence bhAshyakAra says satyAnrute mithuneekrutya, atasmin tadbuddhiH.  AtmAnAtma anyOnyAdhyAsa. 

Only Vedanta points out that I am not only SAT, CHIT but ANANDA. Logically, one can deduce that happiness that I get from objects comes from my own self rather than from fulfilling the desires. But logic does not stop my pursuit of Ananda outside – Hence rat-race continues.

  •  Yes prabhuji, visha suKha is also part and parcel of anavicchinna saNtOsha (Ananda) In waking and dream we are influenced by by Vishaya sukha whereas in sUshupti we will be one with parabrahma tattva hence Ananda experienced there is not the type of Vishaya sukha. 

 The question then remains – This partial abhaava of myself – that I am Ananda swaruupam also – seems to be beginningless ajnaana – And Vedanta points out the fundamental truth that one can logically also deduce to some extent that I am the source of happiness too.

Ø     Yes, When one realizes his eternal real nature of existence  and conscious,  svarUpa Ananda aspect also would follow that realization automatically.  svarUpa abhAva jnAna, resultant adhyAsa goes automatically when one realizes his svarUpa jnAna. 

Any ignorance is beginningless – that includes my Chemistry ignorance or gaagaabuubu’s ignorance’

,>  Yes, and it is also illogical to find a cause for it and introduce 4th type of avidyA bring-in the material / upAdAna cause theory. 

 Irrespective of ‘who says what’, the fundamental problem remains – that I am the very source of Happiness that I am longing for – and Vedanta alone points out that while reinforcing the logic that happiness comes from myself (aatmanastu kaamaaya sarvam priyam bhavati) , also that I am Brahman or Infinite, aham brahamaasmi.  

  • Yes prabhuji sva-svarupAnusaNdhAna needs to be done and shAstra vihita shravaNAdi sAdhana needs to be done to realize that I myself the real source of eternal Ananda. And I myself that paramAnanda svarUpa. 

Personally, I consider the rest of the discussion to be only Academic. For me, ‘Who says what is irrelevant, other than understanding and solving the fundamental problem’.

  •  We are, actually, struggling to find out or diagnose  what exactly is our fundamental problem 😊  And when some one say that fundamental problem is having the locus in eternal source of happiness i,e, brahman and covering that brahman itself then we are facing the problem in accepting it.  As we have not seen any agni is being covered by silky veil 😊

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

 

Hari Om!

 

Sada

 

 

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